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Old 05-12-2015   #276
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post
Would I be correct in assuming the JBL MS-8 would not work for my configuration?

1 each Front Center Channel
1 each Rear Center Channel
2 each Front Midbass 7"
2 each Front Full-Range 3"
2 each Rear Full-Range
1 each Subwoofer

But if I removed the rear center channel, then all is OK?
Or use a crossover between the front midbass/full-range to treat them as one channel each side?
There isn't a rear center. Just 2 "rears", 2 "sides", or boths if you want. So you should be fine.

One thing to note is that it would be better to use a coaxial with it's own tweeter for the rears, over a full range speaker that will play high enough but will have a limited off axis response pattern that won't extend that high.

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Old 05-12-2015   #277
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
There isn't a rear center. Just 2 "rears", 2 "sides", or both if you want. So you should be fine.
Ahh, you're right. Thanks!

From the user manual:

Quote:
Rear speakers
1. The MS-8 will then display Rear, with the options None and 1 way. (Separate outputs
for two-way speakers are not available for side or rear speakers.)
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Old 06-12-2015   #278
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Hi
EVEN IF YOU CAN ADVISE ME ON HOW TO CONNECT JBL MS8 TO OEM HEADUNIT
OR THE 3RD PARTY HEAD UNIT... WHAT CONNECTIONS, CABLES ETC I WOULD NEED
this is my thread from another site unanswered
so just wondering if you could help....please.

My plan is to install the JBL MS8 into my E39 (525i 2001 UK RHD)
the head unit is the single display line, radio/ cassette non splitting unit
with build-in Amplifier - so not in the trunk... CD changer only. and 10 speaker

right... so the thing is, i want to keep the front dash OEM for the looks only,
but plan to perhaps add a second head unit Clarion CX609 A, hopefully
in the trunk along with the JBL MS8.
gonna link a device (ipad or Fiio X5) to aux on MS8 for tunes, not worried
about radio, satnav, or DVDS Etc.
and will consider upgrading SPEAKERS AND AMPLIFIER and possibily a Sub
depending on what advice i get from you all.

Would this be possible to have a set-up like this installed and control from
the front via Oem head unit or ipad or Fiio X5, or any suggestions.

so could any of you help me with this set-up... especially the rewiring, what speakers, amp,
to get as upgrade, and advise on the 3rd party Head unit and JBL MS8 install.

I am a complete novice with car audio, but willing to try. so be gentle and nothing too technical.


ps got the JBL MS8 and Clarion CX609 A for nothing might as well use them.
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Old 06-12-2015   #279
 
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Default JBL MS8 into my E39

hi
sorry hope i have posted in the right place, my first thread.

just looking advice jbl ms8 set-up, looked all over the web
but all too technical for me, i just want to know what i need to
connect to a head unit in terms of connections/cables etc.

here is a thread i have on another site but no help as yet.

Hi all, and thanks for reading
My plan is to install the JBL MS8 into my E39 (525i 2001 UK RHD)
the head unit is the single display line, radio/ cassette non splitting unit
with build-in Amplifier - so not in the trunk... CD changer only. and 10 speaker

right... so the thing is, i want to keep the front dash OEM for the looks only,
but plan to perhaps add a second head unit Clarion CX609 A, hopefully
in the trunk along with the JBL MS8.
gonna link a device (ipad or Fiio X5) to aux on MS8 for tunes, not worried
about radio, satnav, or DVDS Etc.
and will consider upgrading SPEAKERS AND AMPLIFIER and possibily a Sub
depending on what advice i get from you all.

Would this be possible to have a set-up like this installed and control from
the front via Oem head unit or ipad or Fiio X5, or any suggestions.

so could any of you help me with this set-up... especially the rewiring, what speakers, amp,
to get as upgrade, and advise on the 3rd party Head unit and JBL MS8 install.

I am a complete novice with car audio, but willing to try. so be gentle and nothing too technical.
ps got the JBL MS8 and Clarion CX609 A for nothing might as well use them.
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Old 06-16-2015   #280
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Quote:
Rear speakers
1. The MS-8 will then display Rear, with the options None and 1 way. (Separate outputs
for two-way speakers are not available for side or rear speakers.)
Damn' I just realized that!
Ok coaxials ordered...

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Old 06-17-2015   #281
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

One way I had thought of tapping OEM for an integration processor like MS-8 is simply using a regular replacement harness and aftermarket harness together, making a T-harness, splitting off audio but passing through power, ground, accessory etc. Then run audio signal lines to the MS-8. This would be for a typical conventional system where the head unit isn't feeding an external amp. Although one could effectively bypass the external amp this way as well I'd think. The harness would simply plug between the car-harness and the radio.

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Old 06-17-2015   #282
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Damn' I just realized that!
Ok coaxials ordered...
Or a 4 channel amp with internal crossovers.
Andy still suggests keeping the tweeter up high as close to ear level as possible.
In the rear, a coaxial could be mounted up high but rear doors typically have the woofer mounted lower.
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Old 06-17-2015   #283
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetricMuscle View Post
Or a 4 channel amp with internal crossovers.
Andy still suggests keeping the tweeter up high as close to ear level as possible.
In the rear, a coaxial could be mounted up high but rear doors typically have the woofer mounted lower.
Now I have passive 2 way as side only, but I thought I could try active through ms8 since I recently freed some channels.
Before I just had fullranges as sides, and sure adding a tweeter, high enough, helped a lot! But they're far from each other, I need to fix delays, i have some strange effects sometime.

I also want to try sides + rears, so now the easiest way may be: coax as sides, and passive 3"/tweet as rears, far in the back corners. (Or even just the 3" alone if aimed correctly).

I have enough active channels for 2x2way, but two amps just for this is a bit overkill I think, and it takes room!
(Working on cleaning/simplifying the rack right now, 2ms8 + 7 smaller amps)

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Old 07-25-2015   #284
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Thanks for the review. Its been 5 years and there is no upgrade yet of the original ms-8 so I guess this is working well.
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Old 07-30-2015   #285
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Has anyone had an issue with the MS8 imaging the midbass stronger on the driverside in "driver" mode, and stronger to the passenger side in "passenger" mode? When I hear the midbass, it is definitely significantly louder on the driverside in my normal driver mode. I've turned the balance full left and full right, only changed the mode and the midbass output is changed significantly.

If anything I would think it would try to make the passenger side midbass louder trying to keep the midbass in the center image, but that is not case.

The Mid-range and tweeter sound appropriately centered and leveled, but I have to position my head about 2"inches left of my natural seating position for the first sweep to center the image properly. Not sure if this is causing my issue or not, but I would still think moving my head more to the left would make the passenger side stronger not weaker.

Any thoughts?
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Old 07-30-2015   #286
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

That's strange, you sure about your L&R connection? (Had to ask )
Or maybe the headset was reversed during cal?
Or maybe some xover on amps that could mess up?
You could try to invert L&R at the ms8 maybe, just to check

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Old 07-31-2015   #287
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

I've checked the suggestions below. Full left on the headunit plays sound on the left side of the car, full right plays full right.

Headset was not reversed, and the center image sounds correct for the mid and tweet. I had to replace a headset as one of the mics was not working before, talk about frustrating to troubleshoot, but in this case I don't believe this is the issue.

Crossovers are disabled on the midbass amp, and I set the gains with a multimeter. It was a little tricky to balance considering it's a 4ch amp, and it's bridged to each midbass driver. But even if the gains weren't exact, it wouldn't explain why the output increases when the seating position mode is changed. The driver's side output is very strong in driver mode, and the passenger side sounds pretty weak in comparison. Just switching to passenger mode makes the passenger side sound just as strong on the midbass, so I doubt it's a level issue on the amp. Maybe I accidentally turned on the bass boost feature on one side of the amp, but again I would think that would make the driver's side louder in every mode, not just driver mode.

I've done the output identification test, and checked the output with an RTA, again levels seem on target.

The only thing that is more strange is that, I only noticed this after I fixed a phase issue with the midbass. What was most annoying about the phase issue, is that it only presented itself if I crossed the midbass to mid at 500Hz or higher. Lowering the crossover to 350Hz resolved the phase issue, which was also annoying because I did not know at first the phase flipped back, but I eventually figured out the image wasn't centered properly again, and had to set the polarity on the midbass back to normal.

At this point, I believe I've corrected the phase issues, and even a phase issue shouldn't cause an issue with sound set to full left or right. So I'm kinda confused as to why the Midbass is being localized to either side. The only question I have, and I'll test this today, is if moving my head left of center on the first sweep is causing this issue. The rest of the sweeps I leave my head in the normal center position.

Per Andy I thought the first sweep is for center image only, but maybe the center of the midbass, isn't the same for the mid and tweet, and some how the MS8 is getting confused. Makes me wish the MS8 wasn't such a "blackbox", and at least provided some information/feedback on how the levels were set on each channel.

In my truck, none of these issues are present. Hit acoustic measurement, and the magic of MS8 works perfectly. The image is scarily right in the front window, it's almost distracting how perfect the center image is. People are shocked when I tell them there is no center channel speaker.

However, my car has been much more difficult to tune, most of this I believe is due to driver location/beaming. But without making custom door panels, it is what is for the time being.

This really is the last acoustic issue that I'm trying to figure out, and I hope it's a simple solution.

Thanks for any input or guidance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
That's strange, you sure about your L&R connection? (Had to ask )
Or maybe the headset was reversed during cal?
Or maybe some xover on amps that could mess up?
You could try to invert L&R at the ms8 maybe, just to check
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Old 07-31-2015   #288
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

I'm an idiot of course your L&R are right if you played with the balance
Since you have a 3 way I guess you're also sure about the channel identification.
Seems definitely in the ms8, did you search in this huge post for any similar issue?
It must be something about phase, the one you previously fixed created a new one higher or lower in FR, maybe you should put them back as before and play only with midbass/mid crossover?
You could also try the midbass as 1 way full range, cal with normal head position, then head in center of the car, just as tests?
Ms8 should manage the phase, but maybe it's so all over the place that it's too much for it. Where are the drivers located?
About the first sweep I never really experienced huge variation while moving my head, but it's probably car dependant.
But the center should be the same for all drivers.
Anyway I'm sure you'll get better help soon.

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Old 07-31-2015   #289
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Yes, I've used ch identification and level matched drivers before sweeping.

I will test the midbass as a 1 way in addition to just keeping my head centered.

I did try to search, but the search isn't very useful. Too many results, and it doesn't allow you to read how the thread applies to what you just searched for. So I figured I would just ask.

Drivers are located in the bottom front of the door.
https://goo.gl/photos/3wiQrq8V6VxEp9ceA

Yes, in my truck the image doesn't move much, in my car it does, but then again I'm much closer to the drivers, and probably don't get the same level of reflectivity off the front windshield. Which is also probably why it's more difficult to get a good center image in my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
I'm an idiot of course your L&R are right if you played with the balance
Since you have a 3 way I guess you're also sure about the channel identification.
Seems definitely in the ms8, did you search in this huge post for any similar issue?
It must be something about phase, the one you previously fixed created a new one higher or lower in FR, maybe you should put them back as before and play only with midbass/mid crossover?
You could also try the midbass as 1 way full range, cal with normal head position, then head in center of the car, just as tests?
Ms8 should manage the phase, but maybe it's so all over the place that it's too much for it. Where are the drivers located?
About the first sweep I never really experienced huge variation while moving my head, but it's probably car dependant.
But the center should be the same for all drivers.
Anyway I'm sure you'll get better help soon.
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Old 08-01-2015   #290
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Some interesting results to share after swapping the phase on the driver's side midbbass driver.

In each picture I am playing an 80Hz test tone recording the output with normal speaker polarity, and the MS8 is set to Driver mode.
1) First will be Drivers Seat Balance full Left
2) Drivers Seat Balance Full Right
3) Drivers Seat Equal Balance
4) Passenger Seat Equal Balance

1) DS balance Left -29db


2) DS balance Right, output is down -3dB


3) DS balance Center, output has increased +5dB


4) PS balance Center, output decreases -9dB from previous balance center.


Now I flip the polarity on the driver's side midbass, and take the same measurements.

1) DS balance Left, -30db


2) DS balance Right, output decreases -2dB


3) DS balance Center, output decreases -11dB


4) PS balance Center, output increase +10dB


From what I can tell, the results basically reverse themselves on the output for test 3&4. But which result is correct? I would imagine you wouldn't want the midbass output decreasing when set to center from the Driver's Seat. This to me seams like the phase is cancelling/reducing overall output, so having the polarity swapped seems to be a fail to me.

With normal polarity it appears this is constructive interference, as output is increased, so I assume this is what I should want. The only strange part is the fact in every test 2), the passenger side output is lower than the driver's side output, when I would think it should be closer to equal. While it is only ~3dB, it audible to me, and definitely localizes the midbass to the driver's side.

Since I am running a 4 ch amp bridged, maybe a slight different gain setting is causing the output difference, but I thought the MS8 should be able to account for that and level the two sides properly. Maybe it can't? I'm going to try slightly lowering the driver's side to see if that helps.

Any thoughts on the results of my testing?





Quote:
Originally Posted by c4stitan View Post
Yes, I've used ch identification and level matched drivers before sweeping.

I will test the midbass as a 1 way in addition to just keeping my head centered.

I did try to search, but the search isn't very useful. Too many results, and it doesn't allow you to read how the thread applies to what you just searched for. So I figured I would just ask.

Drivers are located in the bottom front of the door.
https://goo.gl/photos/3wiQrq8V6VxEp9ceA

Yes, in my truck the image doesn't move much, in my car it does, but then again I'm much closer to the drivers, and probably don't get the same level of reflectivity off the front windshield. Which is also probably why it's more difficult to get a good center image in my car.
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Old 08-01-2015   #291
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Quote:
Originally Posted by c4stitan View Post
I will test the midbass as a 1 way in addition to just keeping my head centered.
Just saw your last post, I was thinking about full range, to be able to check any cancellation issue at all FR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c4stitan View Post
I did try to search, but the search isn't very useful. Too many results, and it doesn't allow you to read how the thread applies to what you just searched for. So I figured I would just ask.
Try google instead of the forum tool, like: https://www.google.com/search?q=ms8+...assenger+diyma

Quote:
Originally Posted by c4stitan View Post
Drivers are located in the bottom front of the door.
https://goo.gl/photos/3wiQrq8V6VxEp9ceA
Nothing strange then, do you have a big tunnel, or no tunnel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c4stitan View Post
Some interesting results to share after swapping the phase on the driver's side midbbass driver.

In each picture I am playing an 80Hz test tone recording the output with normal speaker polarity, and the MS8 is set to Driver mode.
1) First will be Drivers Seat Balance full Left
2) Drivers Seat Balance Full Right
3) Drivers Seat Equal Balance
4) Passenger Seat Equal Balance

From what I can tell, the results basically reverse themselves on the output for test 3&4. But which result is correct? I would imagine you wouldn't want the midbass output decreasing when set to center from the Driver's Seat. This to me seams like the phase is cancelling/reducing overall output, so having the polarity swapped seems to be a fail to me.

With normal polarity it appears this is constructive interference, as output is increased, so I assume this is what I should want. The only strange part is the fact in every test 2), the passenger side output is lower than the driver's side output, when I would think it should be closer to equal. While it is only ~3dB, it audible to me, and definitely localizes the midbass to the driver's side.

Since I am running a 4 ch amp bridged, maybe a slight different gain setting is causing the output difference, but I thought the MS8 should be able to account for that and level the two sides properly. Maybe it can't? I'm going to try slightly lowering the driver's side to see if that helps.

Any thoughts on the results of my testing?
I'm not sure to get your process.
Did you swap polarities before/after calibration?
Anyway by swapping you fix one phase issue and just create another one probably.

When you measured PS you also used the DS setting on ms8?
Based on your previous description I expected more differences between both sides. It looks like your right side has better low end even if slightly lower at 80hz.
R>L by 3db does not seem terrible, and probably at another FR it's reversed.

I was thinking full range measure, ms8 as front 1 way with maybe a sweep tone, or pink noise with RTA.
And measured 1 speaker at a time, the other disconnected or amp off.
Just to determine each speaker behavior first. Here you miss everything over, let's say 120Hz.
(do you have RewEQ and a mic? it could help to measure phases)

And yes I wouldn't worry about gain if they're quite ok, ms8 has a lot of headroom (~15db) so if it can't fix it, it must be the phase.

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Old 08-03-2015   #292
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

Well it appears my issue was simpler than I realized. I continued my previous testing playing a 80Hz test tone, and again could hear the bass pulling to the left. I raised the frequency in steps 100 then to 125Hz, and could audibly hear the bass moving to the center. Obviously a phase issue, so I decided to turn the sub off and again play 80Hz, the bass was now centered!

For the next test I flipped the polarity of the sub and played 80Hz again, with the sub off or on the bass stayed centered!

While I'm glad this was a simple resolution, how annoying! Hopefully this at least helps anyone who also runs across this issue.

Thanks for the help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Just saw your last post, I was thinking about full range, to be able to check any cancellation issue at all FR.


Try google instead of the forum tool, like: https://www.google.com/search?q=ms8+...assenger+diyma


Nothing strange then, do you have a big tunnel, or no tunnel?



I'm not sure to get your process.
Did you swap polarities before/after calibration?
Anyway by swapping you fix one phase issue and just create another one probably.

When you measured PS you also used the DS setting on ms8?
Based on your previous description I expected more differences between both sides. It looks like your right side has better low end even if slightly lower at 80hz.
R>L by 3db does not seem terrible, and probably at another FR it's reversed.

I was thinking full range measure, ms8 as front 1 way with maybe a sweep tone, or pink noise with RTA.
And measured 1 speaker at a time, the other disconnected or amp off.
Just to determine each speaker behavior first. Here you miss everything over, let's say 120Hz.
(do you have RewEQ and a mic? it could help to measure phases)

And yes I wouldn't worry about gain if they're quite ok, ms8 has a lot of headroom (~15db) so if it can't fix it, it must be the phase.
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Old 03-05-2016   #293
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8

I'm getting a lot of low level static noise out of my speakers with the MS-8. Didn't have it with the 3Sixty.3. I can even hear a low rumble through the subs with the bass knob all the way down. I can hear it through all speakers even with volume all the way down. It does not increase or decrease unless I turn the MS-8's volume down. Below -30dB it is inaudible. When I restore the MS-8 to factory defaults, during the reset the noise goes away and it's completely silent.

I auto tuned with the MS-8 at -40dB. I run it at -10.

MS-8 says it doesn't want my headunit above 35 (goes to 40). I set gains on my amps using 0dB test tones at 25 on headunit (~3/4 usable volume) and the MS-8 at -10dB. This allows me to go to 35 on the headunit for gain overlap if needed. I only use the headunit for volume control.

Amps are all JL Slash v1: 2 300/4, 1 450/4, 1 1000/1.

Channels:
1: FL HI (4" mid and tweeter crossed over through 300/4 amp)
2: FL LO (8" Midbass)
3: SL (4" coax in back)
4: SUB
5: FR HI
6: FR LO
7: SR
8: CTR (4" mid and tweeter crossed over through 300/4 amp)

Sounds good besides the hiss and rumble.

I suspect that if I set my gains with the MS-8 any lower (like at -30) I will not be able to adjust my amps up enough for max power.

2 0 0 6 . J E E P . G R A N D . C H E R O K E E . S R T - 8
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