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Old 04-16-2016   #326
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Default VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

There's an airport 40km outside town (Kallinge), if you're willing to take the trip I'll pick you up

Going by train/car is a 6-7h trip I'm afraid, I live 520km south of Stockholm :/


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Old 04-16-2016   #327
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Wrapped the cover. I'll probably go with plexiglass or something over the amp.




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Old 04-16-2016   #328
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Decided that I'll build a new sub enclosure after I'm done with doors. Probably vented instead.


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Old 04-16-2016   #329
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
There's an airport 40km outside town (Kallinge), if you're willing to take the trip I'll pick you up

Going by train/car is a 6-7h trip I'm afraid, I live 520km south of Stockholm :/
Cool! Thanks for the offer! I'll keep you posted. I haven't yet finalized my itinerary with Mikael.

Trunk looks great and basically finished with the panel wrapped.

Did you have issues with the sealed sub alignment or are you building a new sub enclosure just for cosmetic or space/placement reasons?
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Old 04-16-2016   #330
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Still have some things to finish up in the trunk. No issues wih sub, it was just not my original intention to go sealed. I replaced sub and couldn't use the box cause the vents were too small. I think vented generally sound better as well. The current Qtc lies around 0,55 so the box is way too big for that sub in sealed config.


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Old 04-16-2016   #331
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Installed a plexi as well, I won't finish the rest until I've rebuilt the subwoofer enclosure.


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Old 04-16-2016   #332
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

I have looked at those Seas mids for a long time...always wondered how they actually got along.
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Old 04-16-2016   #333
 
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

All looking super...just not a fan of those mesh grills. Maybe th color is cool and pops, but I wish you can use something that would elevate the other super nice stuff you did. Any patterned perforation or other cover, or maybe its the color throwing me off?
Regardless, as long as your happy, and they way you have it all layed out is very nice!

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Old 04-16-2016   #334
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Originally Posted by Phil Indeblanc View Post
All looking super...just not a fan of those mesh grills. Maybe th color is cool and pops, but I wish you can use something that would elevate the other super nice stuff you did. Any patterned perforation or other cover, or maybe its the color throwing me off?
Regardless, as long as your happy, and they way you have it all layed out is very nice!
Actually... I agree with you. I had them laying around so I just tried it out, I'll may just swap the entire cover out later when I fix the subwoofer. I dunno what I want to do really, entire build has been improvised from the beginning so maybe that's why I disassembled it like five times now... I rarely end up with what I originally intended. Any suggestions what to do is as always, appreciated.

My packet is coming next week, perhaps the honeycomb grill works better idk...

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Old 04-16-2016   #335
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Copy that on the sub enclosure. Makes perfect sense.

I think that the trunk looks really good! However, my personal preference would be to either use all carpet, or all vinyl for the entire floor panel, and probably go with a honeycomb mesh as well. I think the mix of carpet and vinyl on the floor makes it look a bit disjointed.

One other small detail that I noticed (I'm extremely OCD) is that the radius of the corners of the MDF cutout for the APL1 didn't seem to match the radius of the thin outer perimeter line on the sticker/label atop the APL1 unit itself. Again, just my OCD speaking out here, LOL!

And I would probably keep the mesh openings dark gray or black. But maybe incorporate a central "Eton" cutout logo in the floor or vertical subwoofer beauty panel that is backlit with red LED...or a frosted Plexiglas "Eton" logo that is backlit in the polished Plexiglas panel. Just more work for you! It's easy to sit behind this keyboard and dictate all the work without having to actually do any of it!

Anyway, just my thoughts FWIW. It looks pretty sweet as is.

EDIT: Now that I look at it, I think you probably already made a matching carpeted panel to cover the vinyl/plexiglas section of the floor.
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Old 04-17-2016   #336
 
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

It's the first time I see anyone using Eton products in Sweden, but that sub is looking really nice. What's making you change to a ported enclosure? How is the build quality of the amp?
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Old 04-17-2016   #337
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Ported need 2-3mm excursion at 40Hz / 500w input @ Fb33. Sealed 8-9mm same input, distortion will be lots lower. Group delay can be fixed with processing later...

This is the mid-line amps from ETON, they have replaced them with ECS line now. I opened them up before and I'd say that overall quality and build design is decent but very good for the price I payed. Their top of the line amps are really good quality stuff. Cost a lot more too.

Finally that cover is going into the trashbin. I'm re-doing it - too messy. I'll move the processors so I can build the cover flat instead.


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Old 04-17-2016   #338
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Dude thanks for pm I look in to it. And soooo glad your back here dropping good info ! Build is badass.

But theseee go to 11!!!
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Old 04-17-2016   #339
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

I ended up disassembling the entire trunk...

So... First off I was annoyed at how hard it was to access the speaker connections if you needed to remove the amp rack so I needed to find a solution for that. Second, the DSPs were too high in relation to the amps, had to lower them but the APL1 was in the way even if I removed the little board it was mounted on, so I had to move it somewhere else.

This ended up taking the good part of the entire day to fix...



Had to remove the lower mounting board and I realized pretty quick that I had screwed the metal frame after I had mounted that board, impossible to get it up. Only thing to do was to saw it in two while in the car and build a new one. The APL1 input cables were too close the the floor so I had to pull the cable below the floor and remove the back end of the board.

Removed all the amps after that and welded this extra piece there.



Speakon connections.















Now it's easy to remove the speaker cables... Fixed a lot of clutter too.







Welded another frame to put he APL1 in front of amps instead.



Also moved the MiniDSP backwards a little.


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Old 04-17-2016   #340
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Now I can make a single top board.

I'll design it properly this time. I will only have the amps visible. I ordered a large plastic sheet (12mm) so I'll be able to do precision cuts in it. I'm modeling a new subwoofer now too.

I will go with a 103lit - vented.

Slot port with 280cm² vent area. Fb = 33Hz, vent velocity 15ms @ 1000w.

I'm thinking to build a front subwoofer as well, to fix modal issues between 60-65Hz. Previously I had good results using an extra sub to cancel out ringing at the first large mode around ~42Hz. Might be possible to do both with FIR processing. Still have channel 8 free on the C-DSP. I'll building pods soon too for C-pillars, want some rear ambience delayed. Need to figure out a way to hook all of these things up. I basically would require 10channels. Well mids first, after that new sub enclosure...

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Old 04-17-2016   #341
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Holy crap! You work like lightning! So much accomplished in so little time!

But sorry mate...I didn't mean to set you off and have you end up disassembling the whole trunk!

It seems maybe you are a bit OCD like me.
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Old 04-17-2016   #342
 
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Now I can make a single top board.

I'll design it properly this time. I will only have the amps visible. I ordered a large plastic sheet (12mm) so I'll be able to do precision cuts in it. I'm modeling a new subwoofer now too.

I will go with a 103lit - vented.

Slot port with 280cm² vent area. Fb = 33Hz, vent velocity 15ms @ 1000w.

I'm thinking to build a front subwoofer as well, to fix modal issues between 60-65Hz. Previously I had good results using an extra sub to cancel out ringing at the first large mode around ~42Hz. Might be possible to do both with FIR processing. Still have channel 8 free on the C-DSP. I'll building pods soon too for C-pillars, want some rear ambience delayed. Need to figure out a way to hook all of these things up. I basically would require 10channels. Well mids first, after that new sub enclosure...
Cool job! And the APL leds are even more visible like that.

What's the main reason for the speaker easy connector, cause the amps are stacked?
I'm curious about your sub thing, front one to fix a modal issue? I thought at that FR the wavelength were already so long that they were independent of the sub placement in the car.

For rear-fill, I was thinking about this myself, like maybe re-using the ms8 Logic 7 after the C-dsp, but jut for rear & sides signals.


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Old 04-18-2016   #343
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Guess I am a bit OCD lol.

Front sub and rear sub have different nulls, about 20Hz apart IIRC in my car...

I added the speakon because the amps are stacked, yes. Really annoying to get a hex tool down there :/


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Old 04-18-2016   #344
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Looks awesome!
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Old 04-18-2016   #345
 
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Quote:
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Guess I am a bit OCD lol.

Front sub and rear sub have different nulls, about 20Hz apart IIRC in my car...

I added the speakon because the amps are stacked, yes. Really annoying to get a hex tool down there :/


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So I'm curious to see what you'll do with the minidsp to fix this.

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Old 04-18-2016   #346
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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So I'm curious to see what you'll do with the minidsp to fix this.
Alright here goes...

Going to need three things for this:

1. Dual input DSP
2. A headunit with T/A
3. DSP with Allpass capability (MiniDSP got it)




This is what you need to do. First we need the two separate outputs from headunit.

The Alpine I have got 336cm which equals 9.77ms.





Here's the group delay of my sub (sealed) before any processing has been applied.

It's about 30ms delayed relative to the midrange. The problem is that the group delay ain't flat. We need to add even more delay to the sub to get it somewhat flat before attempting to get a true time coherent stage. The tools to accomplish this is APF (Allpass filters). They are summed filters, they end up flat in amplitude but got a phase shift which cause delay.

MiniDSP supply a spreadsheet to calculate these filters and can be programmed via advanced mode (biquad programming);



An example...



Here's the EQed vs non-EQed response viewed as group delay. As you can see EQ does fix some of the issues but there's still a rise to [email protected] With vented boxes this is usually much worse.



So let's see what we got...

The C-DSP 6x8 got 15ms, the headunit got 9.77ms, the APL1 1,5ms. This equals 26,27ms cascaded. Not perfect but almost there.

Dial in max delay for speaker output and zero for the sub on HU, feed it to the DSP. Now the delay the system by the maximum amount the DSP allows (leave ~1,5ms headroom for speaker L/R delays). Keep sub delay at zero.



This is what I got after max delay in the DSP (no allpass added here), looks like I will be able to do the last 10ms after I've cascaded delay from the headunit...

Here's the idea summed up;


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Old 04-18-2016   #347
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Been thinking about all the talk about how to set gains... It seems like a complicated task for some but it's real easy when you think about it.

We want the gains as low as possible without sacrificing the output we're after (i.e strong signal to amps). This basically improves the S/N ratio. Set the gains too high and you'll likely get noise, either from the amps themselves or induced noise from cables etc.

I just turn up gains to some arbitrary number so I get enough output, then I tune the system. After I'm done, I go and check the level settings over all speakers.

In my setup I had mids and subs at -15dB or so but midranges at 0. The midranges are therefore the limiting factor in output. Ok, since subs and mids are at -15dB we can turn them up to 0dB and lower gains directly on amps till they play just as loud as before (just do a measurement sweep before/after). Now we have maximized S/N for all channels.

It should be noted that you probably should check if your headunit clips the signal with a -5dB tone maximum output. If it does, remember what the max volume setting is. Some music are recorded very low so it's good to have some headroom. I got my max volume setting about 2/3 up on the HU, leaves headroom if I want to turn up volume on low volume recordings...

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Old 04-18-2016   #348
 
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Really like that amp rack setup!
Nice work!

I found it much better to leave all flat and no adjustment on the HU and control all from the DSP (such as EQ and TA,etc).

HU:Pioneer AVH4100NEX / Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.3
FrontDoor:MBQuart QSD216 mid(biamp-active)
Dash:Morel Hybrid Integra 402(passive)*JL HD600.4
RearDoors:MBQuart RCE216(passive)
Infinity Perfect 10"DVQ sub-sealed*GTO EZ3
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Old 04-18-2016   #349
 
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Another great post! Will sure try this with if I put 2 more subs in front.

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Old 04-18-2016   #350
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Thanks for the gain setup tip. I always thought this made the most sense given the amount of control available with dsps.

Alpine CDE-HD149BT - Helix DSP
Sony XM260G - Sony XES-M3 - JL HD 750/1
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