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Old 11-04-2013   #201
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I did some additional measurements on my tweeters (with the small waveguides). All measurements are done psuedo-anechoic (gated), i.e no reflections in any measurements. Each impedance peak have been averaged 5 times for better accuracy. Forgot to generate a mean sound power response curve, but as you can see from the FR-plot below, each curve almost track perfectly vs angle until 10kHz. The discrepancies above 10kHz are likely due to radiation from the phase plug. Above 5kHz the driver act more and more directional, which is great, SPL is down a fair bit once the dispersed sound reaches the dash/windshield. The polar response and the sonogram below displays the same data as the FR-plot. Just differently...

Vifa XT25-SC90

Frequency Response 0-15-30-45-60-90 degrees (Smoothed 1/48oct)



Sonogram (FR-Dispersion)



Polar Response (FR-Dispersion)





CSD

Looks pretty good to me. Ringing below 3kHz but looks pretty clean above 4-5kHz.




Stepped Sine Tones 1/48oct - Harmonic Distortion

%HD vs Amplitude (92dB/1m equivalent), taken "semi-nearfield"


There was a 15uF cap in series with driver during the measurement. I was afraid the driver would be damaged by feeding it fullrange close to Fs. Without it, distortion would be approximately 2-3% higher overall below 2kHz. Above 3.5kHz the data is equivalent to 92dB/1m.

The driver have high amounts of 2nd order HD in relation to 3rd order HD, which is good. Basically no tall order HD to be worried about, even H3 is below 0,05% from 4kHz and up. The distortion levels above 4kHz at this output is among the better drivers I've tested and rivals my Scan 6600 in this range. Below 2kHz the HD gets very audible, DON'T use this tweeter that low.




IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) - Two Tone, 90dB/1m equivalent

Here's one IM test playing sine tones at 1kHz and 4,5kHz. IMD is harder to measure but it's basically strongly connected to harmonic distortion. Wherever 2nd HD is high, 2nd IMD is high - if 3rd HD is high, 3rd IMD is high etc etc... Both are non-linearities but the general consensus is that IMD is more audible than HD (even if there's studies pointing out that non-linear distortion ain't very audible at all...). Logically IMD should be worse than HD since the distortion ain't related to any harmonics and taller IMD products are more widely spread.



As you can see, the tone at 1kHz creating massive amounts of 2nd order IMD that's even higher than the 2nd harmonic! Check 4,5kHz and 5,5kHz which is the 2nd order IMD. If we do the calculation we see that;

IMD 2nd order = 3,54%
IMD 3rd order = 0,22%

This correlates with the 2nd order --> 3rd order HD ratio somewhat


---- ---- ---- ---- ----

4kHz + 9kHz (1:1 ratio)



Looks much better here. IM is basically neglectable here. IM2 is at 0,22% and IM3 are below that...


I posted a few thoughts about audibility of non-linearities but the thread didn't caught much interest; https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-speakers.html
I expected the output above 10K to be more flat extending to 20K like most XT tweeters. (it's 7 db down at 20k compared to 10K)
I saw that in your previous measurements as well, both with the old and new wave guide.

Any reason you can think of? Or is it the lack of a baffle that is causing this?

1982 Porsche 911 SC, Pioneer P88-RSII active 2-way front + sub, Genesis Series III 4 Channel, 1&2 to Hertz ML 1600 woofers, 3&4 bridged to a JBL GTO 804 sub in the front trunk, Vifa XT25 sc-90 04 tweeters powered by a Genesis Series III Stereo 60.

Last edited by Wesayso; 11-04-2013 at 01:20 PM.. Reason: (Including the quote to keep it on the same page)
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Old 11-04-2013   #202
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Both soundcard (running in ASIO 96kHz mode) and microphone use calibration files. My drivers might be weird :P

Other tweeters I've measured doesn't rolloff in the same way above 10kHz. It might be that the waveguide are amplifying the midband and the highs due to narrow dispersion doesn't benefit from the "boost".

Here's another measurement on the same driver using similar methods to mine (well except he's measuring on a flat battle as well:



If there's something going on with my measurement setup I better look into it though.

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Old 11-04-2013   #203
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Here's a FR graph over my mic pre-amp/soundcard (very unlikely it's that one):


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Old 11-04-2013   #204
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Yes, I noticed both the Eton and the Fountek reached 20K easy so I knew it wasn't the mic/soundcard. Just wondering why this tweeter doesn't .

Edit: if I compare it with: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...lots-pics.html the waveguide could play a function, but still it should extend in a straight line after that? I guess it's the wave guide without a baffle (coupled to sort of a reverse horn, the sphere). Not that I mind this behavior in a car though. I think the more even off-axis response is more important to me, listening slightly off axis.

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Old 11-04-2013   #205
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

The old pod didn't do much better:


And that was based on the original XT waveguide. No baffle though...

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Old 11-04-2013   #206
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
Yes, I noticed both the Eton and the Fountek reached 20K easy so I knew it wasn't the mic/soundcard. Just wondering why this tweeter doesn't .
Yeah, I agree. Kinda weird... It is able to do just about 40kHz before dropping like a rock. My theory is that it is the 3-10kHz area which is "boosted". I'll just bring down the entire 3-10kHz with a wide PEQ band if needed later

One thing i did notice with your pods (dunno if I've mentioned it before) is that there's much less comb now. Before the unsmoothed FR in the car was like 10dB+/-, now it's down to half or so in the same range. Just done some listening with a home amplifier without processing but I can tell it's a major improvement. I will take precautions when building the pods for the ETONs, no sharp edges anywhere... I have a few interesting ideas how to do it.

Need to think a while longer though...

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Old 11-04-2013   #207
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
The old pod didn't do much better:

And that was based on the original XT waveguide. No baffle though...
True =/

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Old 11-04-2013   #208
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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One thing i did notice with your pods (dunno if I've mentioned it before) is that there's much less comb now. Before the unsmoothed FR in the car was like 10dB+/-, now it's down to half or so in the same range. Just done some listening with a home amplifier without processing but I can tell it's a major improvement. I will take precautions when building the pods for the ETONs, no sharp edges anywhere... I have a few interesting ideas how to do it.

Need to think a while longer though...
That is good news! I noticed a smoother sound when I installed my pods. With only graphical EQ I needed all the help I could get. Very satisfied though with the sound I have. Too bad I need to disconnect by battery for a long time to uninstall my failing GT alarm unit tomorrow. Hope I don't loose all my settings! . I used EQ over the auto EQ from the Pioneer, but you can't see what that pio curve is! So if I loose that I'll have to start all over!

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Old 11-04-2013   #209
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Looking at the curve once more you could almost use a first order cap at 20 KHz and make it flat on axis right down to 5K .

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Old 11-04-2013   #210
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Very satisfied though with the sound I have. Too bad I need to disconnect by battery for a long time to uninstall my failing GT alarm unit tomorrow. Hope I don't loose all my settings! . I used EQ over the auto EQ from the Pioneer, but you can't see what that pio curve is! So if I loose that I'll have to start all over!
That sucks... on the P99 the EQ settings remain. Dunno about the p80 though.

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Old 11-04-2013   #211
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
That sucks... on the P99 the EQ settings remain. Dunno about the p80 though.
They should (P88 RSII) with a new unit with a good internal battery . But it's not getting any younger so I'm kinda afraid to loose the settings.

Edit: Good news (for me)... dysfunctional alarm unit is out of the car and the settings remained!

1982 Porsche 911 SC, Pioneer P88-RSII active 2-way front + sub, Genesis Series III 4 Channel, 1&2 to Hertz ML 1600 woofers, 3&4 bridged to a JBL GTO 804 sub in the front trunk, Vifa XT25 sc-90 04 tweeters powered by a Genesis Series III Stereo 60.

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Old 11-04-2013   #212
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Sweet measurements, thanks for that.
True that distortion looks good from 4kHz and up - as you stated, a sweet driver in a 3-way front system (looking at the sonogram confirms that too).

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Old 11-08-2013   #213
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Since I started to use the more powerful measurement program ARTA for loudspeaker measurements I ran the ETON 3-400 through the same measurements as the Vifa tweeters to find the optimal range of usage. Measuring is knowing and now I'm pretty certain of the limits of these drivers.

Frequency Response, 0-15-30-45-60-75-90deg (Baffle effect showing up below 2kHz).

Notice the frequency dip in the 60-90deg plots at 4,5kHz, this is due to beaming (speed of sound in inch/speaker diameter), 13503/3=4501Hz). A break-up node can be seen at 5500Hz. There's also several break-up nodes ranging from 9,5kHz and up. The sound power is evenly distributed in the 45deg axis all the way up up 7,8kHz.



Polar response and sonogram again display the same thing as the above FR plot. I actually prefer the sonogram for viewing directionality. It's easy to see that the best sound power response is attained below ~4kHz.





CSD & Burst Decay

Had to gate out reflections so the there's limited data below 1kHz due to the small FFT window. CSD and Burst Decay displays similar data differently.


CSD Waterfalls display Frequency (Hz) - Decay Level (dB) - Decay Time (ms).

Displaying decay in milliseconds isn't really fair though. The high frequencies will come to a stop faster than the lower frequencies and the CSD therefore favors the higher frequencies. In other words, a CSD looks better at higher frequencies than at lower frequencies.

The Burst Decay however displays; Frequency (Hz) - Decay Level (dB) - Decay Time (periods).

As time decay is display in periods it's easier to compare energy storage in low frequencies vs higher frequencies. Still, I don't have an anechoic chamber and any un-gated measurement I do is bound to have reflections in the data. If I gate the measurement I effectively shorten the FFT length and lose low frequency data... A neat effect in the burst decay plot is that all reflections get shifted into higher frequencies, so if you know what to look for it's not that hard to see what's reflections and what's energy storage. Why this occurs is explained in the ARTA manual (page 103) if you are interested. ( ARTA Manual )





Imo, the burst decay was much easier to observe with the sonogram mode. Between 650-950Hz, 1300-1400Hz, 4000-5000Hz there's some lesser spikes with a "reflection tail" close to them. Between 9-20kHz there are some issues, visible in both plots. That's due to cone break-up. Still learning how to interpret some of the data in ARTA but I think I got it right for now.

Harmonic Distortion - Stepped Sine 1/48oct mode (90dB/1m equivalent)

Baffle step is compensated for.





I believe the stepped sine method is more accurate than a fast sweep. The HD test is done on a flat baffle (IB) in semi-nearfield. The % vs Amplitude is a neat feature in STEPS, really easy to view the actual distortion percentage. The FR is "flat" to ~160Hz, FR rolls off below that and therefore the relative HD levels are lowered along with that. Note that the %-scale ain't linear.

HD2 hits 1% at 200Hz and 1,5% at 160Hz.
HD3 hits 0,3% at 200Hz and 0,5% at 160Hz

Really good at 90dB/1m for a 3" driver. I said it before but these drivers can safely be used down to 160Hz. They perform better around/below 200Hz than the Fountek Fr88Ex did.

Conclusion & Listening impression

Well, haven't done any blind test or anything but I think I like these more than the Founteks. I mounted them in small pods and listened to them without any filters at all in my home audio setup. I couldn't stand the high frequency rise while I listened to them on-axis, it sounded extremely bright and "eeesssssshhhhhy". After taking the measurements into consideration I then decided on angling them 30degrees in regards to the listening position ( my fluffy sofa ). The FR-plot basically shows flat response from 160-12kHz in that axis. So I angled them as best as I could and listened again.... and yeah - much better. Without the HF rise the tonality is very neutral, wouldn't call them "warm". They give the impression of detailed, transient sound. The soundstage is very separated (easy to localize instruments, singer etc). There's no tendency of ringing as far as I can hear. In fact these sounds very "transient", like there's no "reverb" added... perhaps I should call them "well damped" or something, idk. I suck at subjective terms. They have zero listening fatigue, their strong side is their neutrality (if you tame the HF peak), the damped sound takes a little getting used to but it's kinda nice once you do.

The objective part;

FR directionality tells us that 3700Hz is the upper limit if we wanna avoid the breakup node at 5500Hz. The stepped sine FR-plot shows 160Hz as the lowest level before rolloff (this might change after break-in, since Fs is higher than it's supposed to atm)

CSD, BD tells us that there's some ringing at 5kHz (indicating a break-up node).

Distortion set the lowest crossover point at 160-200Hz, depending on how loud you wanna go. 3% THD is pretty much inaudible IME.

So the conclusion is that I will use the ETON's from 160-3700Hz with a 24dB/oct L-R bandpass filter. The tweeters will take over from there with a 4th order L-R HP as well. Seems to be the best solution. I've almost completed measuring the optimal placement for the midrange drivers, I first thought it could be done with the LEAP5 software but I found out that it was complicated and annoying so I never bothered. I'm also soon finished with the main part building the sub, hoping to be able to concentrate on the car soon again.

I've ordered 4pcs Seas L16 5,5" drivers, they were not in stock so it will probably take two weeks or so.

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- Active Build Thread - VW Passat 1.8T (2000) -

Last edited by Hanatsu; 11-10-2013 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 11-10-2013   #214
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Hanatsu, I just want to say THANK YOU. I've really been enjoying this thread. The time you have taken to post all of your measurements, plots and graphs...along with your thorough explanations/reasoning/background information/links, are extremely helpful, educational, and very well-written. Kudos. I'm probably more excited about the SQ potential of your new system setup than you are, LOL.

I'm really interested to read how you implement the dual SEAS L16 drivers, and also your new sub setup.

Honestly, this type of info is like Gold to a lot of us here on DIYMA. Thanks again, and here's to great progress on your system.

Cheers!
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Old 11-10-2013   #215
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Thanks! I noticed an error an I corrected it in the above text.

The dip at 4500Hz is due to beaming, the peak at 5-5,5kHz is the breakup node (can be seen in CSD and HD-plot (HD4 peak) as well). We wanna use a steep crossover filter and perhaps even a notch filter to control the peak during the stopband (rolloff) of the lowpass filter.

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Old 11-10-2013   #216
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

On the tweeter, did you try putting 7 Ohm resistor parallel to the tweeter in a test?
As long as you have a capacitor in series it should bring down the FS impedance peak, I'm just curious if it clears up some of the distortion on the low side.

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Old 11-10-2013   #217
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
On the tweeter, did you try putting 7 Ohm resistor parallel to the tweeter in a test?
As long as you have a capacitor in series it should bring down the FS impedance peak, I'm just curious if it clears up some of the distortion on the low side.
I'll try it out later

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Old 11-11-2013   #218
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

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Old 01-14-2014   #219
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

OK. Time to update this thread!

The mids (Seas L16) was damaged during shipment, I will have the replacements on Monday (finally). As soon as they arrive I shall resume working on this project. I want everything ready by April this year so I can compete with a finished car. I will probably enter the EMMA Master class this year since there's more competitors there.

As for now I've begun working on a "winter car/daily driver" which also will be the new testing ground for different ideas as it's way easier to modify than the Passat. I will post a "spin-off" build-thread shortly.

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Old 01-14-2014   #220
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Spinoff thread; https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ml#post2028909

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Old 01-20-2014   #221
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Drivers and signal cable has arrived! Will measure them asap.







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Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.

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Nice drivers, pretty small yet really robust and well designed. The signal cable is an aluminum shielded, low capitance microphone cable from Sommerscable. $1/ft

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Old 01-20-2014   #224
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Default Re: VW Passat B5 (2000) SQL Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
On the tweeter, did you try putting 7 Ohm resistor parallel to the tweeter in a test?
As long as you have a capacitor in series it should bring down the FS impedance peak, I'm just curious if it clears up some of the distortion on the low side.
What was I thinking when I wrote this... it should read ~ 30 ohm there...
Don't know how that 7 ohm figure came to me
I have 33 ohm myself.

Can't wait to see the measurements on the new equipment... Big magnets!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
What was I thinking when I wrote this... it should read ~ 30 ohm there...
Don't know how that 7 ohm figure came to me
I have 33 ohm myself.

Can't wait to see the measurements on the new equipment... Big magnets!
Lol... never got around to try it. I have a 33ohm wire resistor so I can see what happens

Measurements coming up today or tomorrow. I hope the low end is as impressive as the reviews indicate. Both Zaph, Linkwitz and Hobby&Hifi have done measurements.

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