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-   -   HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP? (https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/418009-hu-t-active-capabilities-need-separate-dsp.html)

Frank Drebin 05-28-2019 12:40 PM

HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Noobish question I'm sure but I'm the owner of Pioneer 2400NEX radio. As most of you know these have time alignment capabilities as well as the ability to run your front two way component speakers in an Active configuration.

With that being said - Is there still a need for an external DSP? If so, what would it provide that my head unit doesn't, besides the obvious of more than two channel output if a person wanted to run 3 way active and rear fill?

Thanks

Mahapederdon 05-28-2019 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Drebin (Post 5706275)
Noobish question I'm sure but I'm the owner of Pioneer 2400NEX radio. As most of you know these have time alignment capabilities as well as the ability to run your front two way component speakers in an Active configuration.

With that being said - Is there still a need for an external DSP? If so, what would it provide that my head unit doesn't, besides the obvious of more than two channel output if a person wanted to run 3 way active and rear fill?

Thanks

1 that I can think of. Per driver eq, maybe finer ta. Parametric eq. Not sure if the pioneer has a graphic eq or not.

Frank Drebin 05-28-2019 01:43 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahapederdon (Post 5706295)
1 that I can think of. Per driver eq, maybe finer ta. Parametric eq. Not sure if the pioneer has a graphic eq or not.

Yes, graphic EQ.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SWbhVT3fH...2Bsettings.jpg

Mahapederdon 05-28-2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Drebin (Post 5706297)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahapederdon (Post 5706295)
1 that I can think of. Per driver eq, maybe finer ta. Parametric eq. Not sure if the pioneer has a graphic eq or not.

Yes, graphic EQ.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SWbhVT3fH...2Bsettings.jpg

You can also have dif presets or tunes.

P. S. I like your screen name.

Frank Drebin 05-28-2019 01:51 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahapederdon (Post 5706299)
You can also have dif presets or tunes.

P. S. I like your screen name.

Thanks. It dates me a bit but I guess it dates you too. :p

So my money would be better spent on speakers then?

Mahapederdon 05-28-2019 01:54 PM

Guess so. You may get better speakers and decide you want a dsp later. At least that's what I would do.

Truthunter 05-28-2019 03:25 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
A simple setup properly using the built in Headunit DSP can sound pretty good.

I always suggest to learn how to optimize (tuning wise) what you currently have before adding more complexity. Get appropriate tuning tools (calibrated mic & RTA) and learn how to properly use them to see what your hearing in order to understand and make better informed tuning decisions.

Standalone DSP will provide much improved tuning resolution. But that in itself provides many more avenues for error if there is a lack of knowledge/experience in properly utilizing it.

XSVTOYZ 05-28-2019 04:02 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
I have the NEX5000 I have the same question
a better eq and maybe a little cleaner sound but I can't see the $$ of the DSP helping me reach my goal of good sound
and I have to have a place to put it
I have a mini truck and with 3 amps and 2 10's it is getting crowded

asianinvasion21 05-28-2019 05:18 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by XSVTOYZ (Post 5706385)
I have the NEX5000 I have the same question
a better eq and maybe a little cleaner sound but I can't see the $$ of the DSP helping me reach my goal of good sound
and I have to have a place to put it
I have a mini truck and with 3 amps and 2 10's it is getting crowded

The new DSP's do Hi-Res and have optical/coaxial inputs. I think going directly into a DSP with one less conversion is a big benefit. Also being able to independently adjust the EQ bands for each driver is huge. My dads car has a pioneer running in network mode and that is the biggest limiting factor in his car.

gijoe 05-28-2019 05:21 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asianinvasion21 (Post 5706409)
The new DSP's do Hi-Res and have optical/coaxial inputs. I think going directly into a DSP with one less conversion is a big benefit. Also being able to independently adjust the EQ bands for each driver is huge. My dads car has a pioneer running in network mode and that is the biggest limiting factor in his car.

I don't think either "Hi-res" or digital connections are particularly important at all. Of all of the benefits a standalone DSP provide, those are pretty close to the bottom of the list for me.

Independent L/R EQ is far more valuable, and you can get that with a $150 Dayton DSP.

mattkim1337 05-28-2019 05:31 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
A dsp will provide improvements in EQ power and crossover point/type selection. The graphic eq on the pioneer is a global eq that affects all channels at once. A dsp will provide you with parametric eq on each active speaker, which allows you to match the left and right side independently (which is the basis of a solid center image). The features of the pioneer are a good starting point to get an idea of using TA and EQ for a rough tune, but the power of DSP (in the right hands) will completely revolutionize the system.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

asianinvasion21 05-28-2019 05:38 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gijoe (Post 5706413)
I don't think either "Hi-res" or digital connections are particularly important at all. Of all of the benefits a standalone DSP provide, those are pretty close to the bottom of the list for me.

Independent L/R EQ is far more valuable, and you can get that with a $150 Dayton DSP.

I like the digital connection and I can definitely hear a difference in my system. The noise floor is non existent when running optical to the DSP. The dayton and miniDSP are great pieces for the price. I don't own either one, but I would assume the interior components of those DSP's are probably not much better than a pioneer head unit. I would assume the DSP's that have hi-res would have better built component and D/A converters in them.

Truthunter 05-28-2019 07:04 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
It really depends on one's end goal. Some will be perfectly content with the results of a system properly tuned with just the built-in HU DSP. Others, including myself after I saw it's limitations on an RTA, need to take it a step further. IME, end goals transform as knowledge & understanding grow.

Alrojoca 05-29-2019 10:54 AM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
If you are willing to put, 400 plus hrs to learn how to tune with a DSP to achieve, a front stage where you can narrow and find the singer's voice within
6" on the top of your dash and then possible compete then get a DSP, still it is not a guarantee to be better than an active crossover head unit.

I'll spend the money on good components and a good sub, and have fun with that.

Frank Drebin 05-29-2019 02:02 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alrojoca (Post 5706717)
If you are willing to put, 400 plus hrs to learn how to tune with a DSP to achieve, a front stage where you can narrow and find the singer's voice within
6" on the top of your dash and then possible compete then get a DSP, still it is not a guarantee to be better than an active crossover head unit.

I'll spend the money on good components and a good sub, and have fun with that.

I like your thinking.

On that note, I had a JBL MS-8 a few years back when they were all the rage on this forum.

Now that they are discontinued, are there any other options out there that do an auto-tune like the MS-8?

Alrojoca 05-29-2019 03:16 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Drebin (Post 5706793)
I like your thinking.

On that note, I had a JBL MS-8 a few years back when they were all the rage on this forum.

Now that they are discontinued, are there any other options out there that do an auto-tune like the MS-8?

It seems that, DD head units with gps, car play and all the super non audio tuning features, don't have auto tuning or side to side EQ. I'm surprised this 2400 NEX has active xovers.

Auto tuning worked well with the ms8, the pioneer deh 80 prs auto tuning was not as good as manual tuning.

I'm sure this 2400 HU has individual channel gain output this can be a huge help after you properly set the TA and may compensate for lack of EQ per side.
If not try your best with the HU, the proper balance and crossover points are key
Issues before TA, Eq and CH output balance for the one seat tuning.

If after that you think it can be better or listen to another system with stand alone DSP that you like more then one of those under $200 DSP's will be the way to go.

Frank Drebin 05-29-2019 04:03 PM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alrojoca (Post 5706835)
It seems that, DD head units with gps, car play and all the super non audio tuning features, don't have auto tuning or side to side EQ. I'm surprised this 2400 NEX has active xovers.

So I'm not the most experienced guy when it comes do digital signal processing, as the MS8 was simply a plug and play solution.

What I do know is that the NEX receivers have a "network mode" which is essentially the ability to run active. (2 way front, no rear channels)

As for the TA, there is a screen where you can enter the distance from each speaker to listening position, and then either select TA on or Off as well as selecting listening position.

The rest of this side to side tuning stuff - over my head.

Alrojoca 05-31-2019 11:15 AM

Re: HU with T.A and active capabilities - need for separate DSP?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Drebin (Post 5706867)
So I'm not the most experienced guy when it comes do digital signal processing, as the MS8 was simply a plug and play solution.

What I do know is that the NEX receivers have a "network mode" which is essentially the ability to run active. (2 way front, no rear channels)

As for the TA, there is a screen where you can enter the distance from each speaker to listening position, and then either select TA on or Off as well as selecting listening position.

The rest of this side to side tuning stuff - over my head.

Maybe it's time to search and read to learn how to tune, or post a thread to get help.


This video at the 5 min time shows the audio settings, individual speaker/driver output, needed for the first step before tuning, and start with EQ flat, assuming tweeters are at widow dash height.
You may want to search for some EQ curves settings, leave flat before, amp gains, and all settings.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6W_PBHJ5AM

voltage gains, crossover points, slopes ( -12db or -24db) balance between high and midbass, , TA, EQ for tonality, evaluate stage height, reduce output from left Channels to fix center the stage. Sub use the same slopes, off or not too loud when tuning the fronts, then set sub output balance to tune with the front stage, you can try reverse polarity ( off phase) you can try overlapping low passing at 120 Hz or 70-80hz also whatever sounds good to you, Tonality at first with a good track is more important than stage.
This worked for me, and you will need some good tracks from MECA IASCA CDs or ChesKy records demostration tracks.
It may take hrs of listening with some settings before you decide it is what you want, have a friend listen on the driver seat, switch seats to notice the difference, don't try to tune for a bad track, loudness off until the tune is right then you can turn it on it's more for lower volume playback.

Good luck!


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