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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #1
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Default Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Hello everyone. I'm sure this has been discussed before but I'm curious to get people's thoughts for my particular application. It's a minivan and the sub(s) will be mounted in a side panel near the left rear corner. The stock system does midbass really well (six 6x9s). I don't really bang out anymore but want to squeeze as much low end out of the package as possible.

I have two 10" Dayton ultimax subwoofers that model really well in small enclosures. I have enough volume on hand to run a single ported or two sealed. I'm leaning towards the sealed pair but the ported configuration nets another 3db at 40hz and 5 at 30hz! Neither configuration should exceed xmax but realistic port sizes probably mean compression and some chuffing at higher volumes. The sealed pair models dead flat with a little cabin gain, but gives up that low-low output that I enjoy, though I do worry about it sounding too fat or monotone as well.

Thank you for your input.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

I would do sealed for the simplicity and nature of the Ultimax which leans towards sealed. Ported in a minivan is good but I'd choose a different sub if so.

As far as your concerns over the response, hopefully you will have some decent EQ capabilities in the system to tune it to your liking. Never had a sub that couldn't use at least a little bit of EQ.

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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Somewhat depends on musical tastes... (classical and pipe organs would benefit from a low frequency).
A passive radiator can mitigate some port volume issues as well as port noise.
Sealed boxes are also a common route to take.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

I struggled with this same question over the summer. I went from one sealed 12" to two sealed 12" subs. One sealed was simply not enough output. Two sealed is perfect. I have always preferred the sound of sealed. I should have at least tried a single sub ported though. My vote is two sealed.

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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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Originally Posted by Bayboy View Post
I would do sealed for the simplicity and nature of the Ultimax which leans towards sealed. Ported in a minivan is good but I'd choose a different sub if so.

As far as your concerns over the response, hopefully you will have some decent EQ capabilities in the system to tune it to your liking. Never had a sub that couldn't use at least a little bit of EQ.

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Yeah, modeling of the Ultimax, and its 19 mm Xmax, strongly strongly suggest sealed, especially in a vehicle. It might be fun ported low for home theater, but sealed seems ideal considering cabin gain.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

i wouldnt worry about port noise if you dont plan on throwing ungodly amounts of power unless you are trying to use a 2 inch aero port or something. You wont run into any port noise with a 3 inch aero at all. at least nothing you'll hear from the driver's seat.

it all really depends on what kind of orientation you can get so you have optimal subwoofer loading which can make a bigger difference than just port or sealed. literally poor loading = crap output and cancellation hell.


for simplicity sake, i'd say do the sealed but have at least 1500 to 2000 watts rms on tap to have the output you need and keep the signal clean, you should have relatively close to the output of the ported but better group delay.

Ported is good if you like rap, or re-bassed music with deep 30hz and under drops aka the whale notes. however if you have a wide range of music, just do sealed.

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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

One consideration in favor of the ported system is weight. I'm suspending this all vertically and have to build supports for it all. Using only one woofer cuts 25 pounds off the already robust enclosure weight. Enclosure alone will be around fifty pounds of mdf and glass. The ported enclosure would be easier to make rigid as well since the woofer is oriented centrally and I can brace to flat surfaces easily.

If I were a patient man, I'd build an enclosure in both configurations and test it first.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heterosapian View Post
One consideration in favor of the ported system is weight. I'm suspending this all vertically and have to build supports for it all. Using only one woofer cuts 25 pounds off the already robust enclosure weight. Enclosure alone will be around fifty pounds of mdf and glass. The ported enclosure would be easier to make rigid as well since the woofer is oriented centrally and I can brace to flat surfaces easily.

If I were a patient man, I'd build an enclosure in both configurations and test it first.
Suspended, in a minivan? I sure hope that thing is secured like a fortress, otherwise it's going to take out everyone in the van in the event of an accident. Let's just say, I'd call another ride if you showed up as my Uber driver with a 50lb sub box hanging behind me.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

The only time I personally would consider a sealed enclosure is when space is at a minimum. I know people say "it depends on your musical taste" but honestly that shouldn't have anything to do with your box design choice. The box design is only going to limit options or open them up. It will not change the tone of the subwoofer as the subwoofer wouldn't change, just the enclosure.

As an example, take a subwoofer from whatever manufacturer that offers their own box design plans for that specific subwoofer when they offer both a suggested sealed enclosure and a ported enclosure. The sealed enclosure is typically going to have less output volume and less sub bass output. The ported enclosure is more tunable as adjusting the port size will move the desired/emphasized frequency range.

Basically, if you are limited on space or just want to limit options, go with the sealed enclosure. Here is a pic from Rockford Fosgates website. It is for the Punch P3D4 10" sub which they say leans more towards liking a sealed enclosure but even their graph shows it has more output in a ported enclosure. Yes the sealed is extending lower but to bring that roll-off up would take some serious equalizing which could introduce noise and or distortion.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
Suspended, in a minivan? I sure hope that thing is secured like a fortress, otherwise it's going to take out everyone in the van in the event of an accident. Let's just say, I'd call another ride if you showed up as my Uber driver with a 50lb sub box hanging behind me.
Suspended is the best way I can phrase it. It's in the left rear corner, mounted vertically, "suspended" from behind on a vertical 2x8 with 8 bolts running through it. Let's be honest, no subwoofer is really safe in a wooden enclosure in a passenger compartment. This is pretty close though.

Pictured is the basin I'm using as a base for the enclosure:
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evl5150 View Post
The only time I personally would consider a sealed enclosure is when space is at a minimum. I know people say "it depends on your musical taste" but honestly that shouldn't have anything to do with your box design choice. The box design is only going to limit options or open them up. It will not change the tone of the subwoofer as the subwoofer wouldn't change, just the enclosure.

As an example, take a subwoofer from whatever manufacturer that offers their own box design plans for that specific subwoofer when they offer both a suggested sealed enclosure and a ported enclosure. The sealed enclosure is typically going to have less output volume and less sub bass output. The ported enclosure is more tunable as adjusting the port size will move the desired/emphasized frequency range.

Basically, if you are limited on space or just want to limit options, go with the sealed enclosure. Here is a pic from Rockford Fosgates website. It is for the Punch P3D4 10" sub which they say leans more towards liking a sealed enclosure but even their graph shows it has more output in a ported enclosure. Yes the sealed is extending lower but to bring that roll-off up would take some serious equalizing which could introduce noise and or distortion.
The alternative argument is that a ported enclosure will always have phase problems, and the sealed enclosure won't. A ported box gives more output, but at a cost.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heterosapian View Post
Suspended is the best way I can phrase it. It's in the left rear corner, mounted vertically, "suspended" from behind on a vertical 2x8 with 8 bolts running through it. Let's be honest, no subwoofer is really safe in a wooden enclosure in a passenger compartment. This is pretty close though.

Pictured is the basin I'm using as a base for the enclosure:
This makes me feel more comfortable.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evl5150 View Post
The only time I personally would consider a sealed enclosure is when space is at a minimum. I know people say "it depends on your musical taste" but honestly that shouldn't have anything to do with your box design choice. The box design is only going to limit options or open them up. It will not change the tone of the subwoofer as the subwoofer wouldn't change, just the enclosure.

As an example, take a subwoofer from whatever manufacturer that offers their own box design plans for that specific subwoofer when they offer both a suggested sealed enclosure and a ported enclosure. The sealed enclosure is typically going to have less output volume and less sub bass output. The ported enclosure is more tunable as adjusting the port size will move the desired/emphasized frequency range.

Basically, if you are limited on space or just want to limit options, go with the sealed enclosure. Here is a pic from Rockford Fosgates website. It is for the Punch P3D4 10" sub which they say leans more towards liking a sealed enclosure but even their graph shows it has more output in a ported enclosure. Yes the sealed is extending lower but to bring that roll-off up would take some serious equalizing which could introduce noise and or distortion.
I've built dozens of enclosures and also lean towards porting but I've never been in a position to make this particular choice. The ported single looks great but has less headroom. Here's the model with 12db/octave cabin gain starting at 50hz. Green is one ported, red is sealed pair, both at the same power level.

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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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The alternative argument is that a ported enclosure will always have phase problems, and the sealed enclosure won't. A ported box gives more output, but at a cost.
Could that be fixed with the use of the phase control on 99% of subwoofer amplifiers?
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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Could that be fixed with the use of the phase control on 99% of subwoofer amplifiers?
No. The phase issue comes from the fact that the wave from the rear of the sub is routed through a longer distance before it's able to move toward the listener. The wave from the front of the cone will be ahead of the rear wave. It cannot be fixed electronically.

This is one reason why technically a sealed box is better for sound quality. That doesn't mean you should necessarily choose a sealed box, and in the real world the extra output from a ported enclosure may make up for the phase problem, but on paper a sealed box is more accurate than a ported box.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
No. The phase issue comes from the fact that the wave from the rear of the sub is routed through a longer distance before it's able to move toward the listener. The wave from the front of the cone will be ahead of the rear wave. It cannot be fixed electronically.

This is one reason why technically a sealed box is better for sound quality. That doesn't mean you should necessarily choose a sealed box, and in the real world the extra output from a ported enclosure may make up for the phase problem, but on paper a sealed box is more accurate than a ported box.
And why a labyrinth ported enclosure or "transmission line" is typically preferred for sq when it comes to ported enclosures as by design it deals with the phase issues associated with ported enclosures in the tuning passband. Below tuning it would also be out of phase.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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And why a labyrinth ported enclosure or "transmission line" is typically preferred for sq when it comes to ported enclosures as by design it deals with the phase issues associated with ported enclosures in the tuning passband. Below tuning it would also be out of phase.
Right, but enclosures like T-lines are usually much bigger, and need to be built very carefully, so they become much less practical in a car, but you are right that there are plenty of other enclosure types that all have their pros and cons. Sealed and ported tend to do well in a car since they are easy to build, and generally smaller than some more complex enclosure types.

If I wasn't driving a hatchback now, I'd do IB again without hesitation.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heterosapian View Post
One consideration in favor of the ported system is weight. I'm suspending this all vertically and have to build supports for it all. Using only one woofer cuts 25 pounds off the already robust enclosure weight. Enclosure alone will be around fifty pounds of mdf and glass. The ported enclosure would be easier to make rigid as well since the woofer is oriented centrally and I can brace to flat surfaces easily.



If I were a patient man, I'd build an enclosure in both configurations and test it first.
Use plywood, it's lighter and stiffer.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heterosapian View Post
Hello everyone. I'm sure this has been discussed before but I'm curious to get people's thoughts for my particular application. It's a minivan and the sub(s) will be mounted in a side panel near the left rear corner. The stock system does midbass really well (six 6x9s). I don't really bang out anymore but want to squeeze as much low end out of the package as possible.



I have two 10" Dayton ultimax subwoofers that model really well in small enclosures. I have enough volume on hand to run a single ported or two sealed. I'm leaning towards the sealed pair but the ported configuration nets another 3db at 40hz and 5 at 30hz! Neither configuration should exceed xmax but realistic port sizes probably mean compression and some chuffing at higher volumes. The sealed pair models dead flat with a little cabin gain, but gives up that low-low output that I enjoy, though I do worry about it sounding too fat or monotone as well.



Thank you for your input.
I'd go with the sealed pair, but I always prefer sealed.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

I've decided on the single ported configuration. With cabin gain, it will probably give me 5-8db in the 20-50hz range, and I tend to cross my stuff around 60hz anyway. That, and the enclosure will also be lighter and easier to build - trying to stuff two tens in a 23" circle would require a tremendous amount of clever bracing to get right. Ported, I just slap the woofer in the center and can reinforce it top-to-bottom with some thick wood dowels rather easily.

I'll probably buy a prefab sealed enclosure to test the pair. If I like it better, I'll build the sealed enclosure over the winter and mount it in the spring when the fiberglass will cure more easily. I'm having to wait until spring to make it pretty anyway for the same reason: resin doesn't like 30-50 degrees (or at least I'm not patient enough to make it work).

check out the build over at https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...r-install.html
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heterosapian View Post
I've decided on the single ported configuration. With cabin gain, it will probably give me 5-8db in the 20-50hz range, and I tend to cross my stuff around 60hz anyway. That, and the enclosure will also be lighter and easier to build - trying to stuff two tens in a 23" circle would require a tremendous amount of clever bracing to get right. Ported, I just slap the woofer in the center and can reinforce it top-to-bottom with some thick wood dowels rather easily.

I'll probably buy a prefab sealed enclosure to test the pair. If I like it better, I'll build the sealed enclosure over the winter and mount it in the spring when the fiberglass will cure more easily. I'm having to wait until spring to make it pretty anyway for the same reason: resin doesn't like 30-50 degrees (or at least I'm not patient enough to make it work).

check out the build over at https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...r-install.html
Maybe chuck an electric blanket over it to help it cure?

Staying with 12" or going to 10 or 8"?
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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No. The phase issue comes from the fact that the wave from the rear of the sub is routed through a longer distance before it's able to move toward the listener. The wave from the front of the cone will be ahead of the rear wave.
Sorry but I don't agree. At typical bass frequencies, there are little to no waves, but complete compression/rarefactions of the entire enclosure volume. (unless you have a really really long enclosure and have a pretty high set HPF, or you are considering weird anomalies like higher order harmonics, which are very complex to model from the rear of the basket/motor of a typical subwoofer). Go ahead and calculate the wavelength for say 80Hz, and tell me what one dimension of the enclosure must be to support that as an actual traveling wave. (hint: don't bother, it's wayyy too long )

Poorly sounding ported systems are simply poorly planned/integrated systems. If you're not careful with cabin gain, there is sometimes just too much gain at certain frequencies which simply results in "boominess" from excess energy centered around specific frequencies.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

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Sorry but I don't agree. At typical bass frequencies, there are little to no waves, but complete compression/rarefactions of the entire enclosure volume. (unless you have a really really long enclosure and have a pretty high set HPF, or you are considering weird anomalies like higher order harmonics, which are very complex to model from the rear of the basket/motor of a typical subwoofer). Go ahead and calculate the wavelength for say 80Hz, and tell me what one dimension of the enclosure must be to support that as an actual traveling wave. (hint: don't bother, it's wayyy too long )

Poorly sounding ported systems are simply poorly planned/integrated systems. If you're not careful with cabin gain, there is sometimes just too much gain at certain frequencies which simply results in "boominess" from excess energy centered around specific frequencies.
Agree, and if the port was extending out of the box towards the listener then the path length is exactly the same... maybe the back of the woofer is 180 degrees out of phase with the front?

If the port was 180 degrees out phase would there be a null somewhere in the frequency response?
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #24
 
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
Sorry but I don't agree. At typical bass frequencies, there are little to no waves, but complete compression/rarefactions of the entire enclosure volume. (unless you have a really really long enclosure and have a pretty high set HPF, or you are considering weird anomalies like higher order harmonics, which are very complex to model from the rear of the basket/motor of a typical subwoofer). Go ahead and calculate the wavelength for say 80Hz, and tell me what one dimension of the enclosure must be to support that as an actual traveling wave. (hint: don't bother, it's wayyy too long )



Poorly sounding ported systems are simply poorly planned/integrated systems. If you're not careful with cabin gain, there is sometimes just too much gain at certain frequencies which simply results in "boominess" from excess energy centered around specific frequencies.
You're partly right, and partly wrong. There are "waves", that's what creates the sound. The wavelength IS much longer than the dimensions of the box or port, though. For anyone interested, the wavelength at 80 hz is: 14.0666 feet, and 4.2875 meters. The port length really does have an effect on the phase of the backwave, because it doesn't travel instantly, it takes time to move through the port, creating a delay, therefore changing the phase at the port exit. Also, I read a paper by a transmission line guru that said every 90 degree bend changes the phase by 180 degrees, so ports are really tricky to do right. The back wave is also 180 degrees out of phase to begin with, hence the need to delay it to get it to couple with the front wave.
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Default Re: Age old question: ported single or sealed pair???

If distortion matters than I vote ported. A single ported enclosure built well and tuned low like 30 Hz has the advantage of reducing cone excursion at the tuning frequency quit well and if you use a DSP you can attenuate the frequency response where there is cabin gain further reducing cone excursion at the typical 45-50 Hz it often occurs. So you get a shit ton of output with less cone movement with less power and if you tune low than group delay isn’t a problem. I can take my ported closure and tune it with my DSP to sound just like a sealed box and you would never know the difference if I dint tell you. Only difference is I get more SPL and less distortion on less power at higher volumes.

The trick with ported enclosures is building them well and tuning them right. If you screw this up they can sound bad. Building sealed enclosures are much more forgiving and tuning them is a cinch.

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