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Default aiming midbass on 2 way front?

hi gents,



sorry if this has been disscussed before but I kindly wanted to ask ,
is there any benefit for tilting my speakers aiming them more on axis towards listener even though they are at the far front bottom end of the doors on my 2way set up?


will this in anyway address or assist beaming or any other issues etc?
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

Depends what frequency you are crossing over the drivers at. I am a big fan of on axis aiming. I would say install them on axis if you can. This article is a good read in regards to beaming.

beaming


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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

It all depends on the bandwidth you're asking the speakers to play. Below beaming there won't be any difference, so it'd be a waste of effort.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asianinvasion21 View Post
Depends what frequency you are crossing over the drivers at. I am a big fan of on axis aiming. I would say install them on axis if you can. This article is a good read in regards to beaming.

beaming
thanks mate for the reply,



I plan to cross the mid/tw using 12db slope @ 2200hz , big coincedence but I plan to use a Focal P165V30 30th year anniversary midbass and MD102 Dynaudio tweeter.


being an owner of the same tweeter do you think it can truely handle 25-40rms crossed at 2200hz ? I came up with this crossover point simply by looking at esotec 242 and seeing thats its crossed at 2200hz 12db from factory I assumed it could handle the same going active but would like to be learn if there is more to it?


if indeed 2200hz 12db is feasible for the md102 do you still think that there will be a benefit from aiming the midbass towards listener by tilting them a bit for a more on axis alignment?
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
It all depends on the bandwidth you're asking the speakers to play. Below beaming there won't be any difference, so it'd be a waste of effort.

I hope and plan to cross at roughly 2200hz 12db but I'am flexible to crossing them 2500 or even higher is thats whats needed as I'am not %100 sure the dyn md102 is capable of such crossover point (my doubt comes from its fs being 1300hz otherwise the factory crossover point is also 2200hz 12db)
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

if you will cut them at 2200 hz - well this is just bellow beaming or at beaming point for 6,5 driver so you might get away without aiming them too much to the listener,....
but I would prefer to tilt them a bit more on-axis,...I had a few friends that compete in EMMA EU and have been EU champions in their classes before dash mounted front systems era - they all had their drivers tilted toward listener.

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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

Just get a midbass driver or computer speakers and cut them at 2200 hz. Move them inward toward each other and then aim them on axis. I can definetely here a difference changing them from on axis to off axis. There is a reason people install kick panels on axis. Just my .02.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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Originally Posted by asianinvasion21 View Post
Just get a midbass driver or computer speakers and cut them at 2200 hz. Move them inward toward each other and then aim them on axis. I can definetely here a difference changing them from on axis to off axis. There is a reason people install kick panels on axis. Just my .02.
Using a random midbass, or computer speakers isn't helpful because it's the size of the speaker that determines at what frequency it beams, so unless you use a speaker with the same diameter radiating surface, the beaming frequency will be different. Having off axis measurements of the speakers that the OP is using would be helpful. A 6.5" is going to be beaming at around 2khz, but just like a crossover, it's not a brick wall, the further past the beaming point (higher frequencies) you push a driver, the more directional it will become, and the more quickly the high frequencies will drop off. Beaming needs to be considered, and if you start getting close to an octave above a speaker's beaming point you could run into response issues, but pushing a speaker a little ways into beaming will just mean that you need to do a bit more EQ work, it's not the end of the world, and won't have a drastic impact on the frequency response at the listening position.

Kick panels had more to do with equaling the pathlengths before time alignment, than putting the speakers on axis.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
Using a random midbass, or computer speakers isn't helpful because it's the size of the speaker that determines at what frequency it beams, so unless you use a speaker with the same diameter radiating surface, the beaming frequency will be different. Having off axis measurements of the speakers that the OP is using would be helpful. A 6.5" is going to be beaming at around 2khz, but just like a crossover, it's not a brick wall, the further past the beaming point (higher frequencies) you push a driver, the more directional it will become, and the more quickly the high frequencies will drop off. Beaming needs to be considered, and if you start getting close to an octave above a speaker's beaming point you could run into response issues, but pushing a speaker a little ways into beaming will just mean that you need to do a bit more EQ work, it's not the end of the world, and won't have a drastic impact on the frequency response at the listening position.

Kick panels had more to do with equaling the pathlengths before time alignment, than putting the speakers on axis.
Obviously the driver would have to be 6.5 inches. There are a lot of monitors that use 6.5 inch drivers. That's why I recommended just using a midbass driver as well. I agree with you, but to say it has no impact to angle the driver toward the listener is not accurate. When you see home audio speakers 99.9% of the time they are aimed toward the listener. If you could install something on axis without much modification, why wouldn't you do so?


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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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Originally Posted by asianinvasion21 View Post
Obviously the driver would have to be 6.5 inches. There are a lot of monitors that use 6.5 inch drivers. That's why I recommended just using a midbass driver as well. I agree with you, but to say it has no impact to angle the driver toward the listener is not accurate. When you see home audio speakers 99.9% of the time they are aimed toward the listener. If you could install something on axis without much modification, why wouldn't you do so?
Below beaming, speakers are omni-directional, the response is exactly the same in all directions. At, and above beaming the response changes, but below beaming it makes no difference.

One reason home speakers are often put on axis is because it's really easy to do so. Because of this, many home audio speakers are crossed over well into their beaming point. Designers can cross speakers over higher because you won't be sitting off axis with most home audio speakers, so you'll be much closer to the sweet spot regardless. As long as the response from the speaker is clean, a higher crossover point can be used.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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Below beaming, speakers are omni-directional, the response is exactly the same in all directions. At, and above beaming the response changes, but below beaming it makes no difference.

One reason home speakers are often put on axis is because it's really easy to do so. Because of this, many home audio speakers are crossed over well into their beaming point. Designers can cross speakers over higher because you won't be sitting off axis with most home audio speakers, so you'll be much closer to the sweet spot regardless. As long as the response from the speaker is clean, a higher crossover point can be used.
So an on axis install is going to give you a lot more flexibility in regards to crossover points? That could be pretty beneficial in a 2-way install.


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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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So an on axis install is going to give you a lot more flexibility in regards to crossover points? That could be pretty beneficial in a 2-way install.
Somewhat, but unless you put the speakers perfectly on axis you either need to cross them over lower, or deal with the response that you'll have with beaming. For a midbass this is tough, unless you want to do kicks.

Take this dayton for example:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...4-ohm--295-374

This is a 7" woofer, not a 6.5", but check out the graph and see how at about 2khz the on axis and off axis responses starts to deviate? Also notice that the response starts to get pretty uneven after about 3khz. So, even on axis the response is going to start to get nasty after 3khz, so you still wouldn't want to cross it much higher than 3khz. Putting a speaker on axis will give you a bit more flexibility with regard to crossover points, but it's not going to give you tons of options, maybe an octave or so higher.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
Somewhat, but unless you put the speakers perfectly on axis you either need to cross them over lower, or deal with the response that you'll have with beaming. For a midbass this is tough, unless you want to do kicks.

Take this dayton for example:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...4-ohm--295-374

This is a 7" woofer, not a 6.5", but check out the graph and see how at about 2khz the on axis and off axis responses starts to deviate? Also notice that the response starts to get pretty uneven after about 3khz. So, even on axis the response is going to start to get nasty after 3khz, so you still wouldn't want to cross it much higher than 3khz. Putting a speaker on axis will give you a bit more flexibility with regard to crossover points, but it's not going to give you tons of options, maybe an octave or so higher.
For sure, I would say with a 3-way install no biggie losing an octave. When doing a 2-way install 2-3 khz is an important frequency. If your tweeter can't play that low, then you can run into issues. You can always EQ the driver a as stated, but why not just install on axis?


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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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For sure, I would say with a 3-way install no biggie losing an octave. When doing a 2-way install 2-3 khz is an important frequency. If your tweeter can't play that low, then you can run into issues. You can always EQ the driver a as stated, but why not just install on axis?
Because it's really impractical for most people to try to put a 6.5" on axis in a car. You either need kicks, or an really obnoxious door pods. Kicks can be tough, to fit in a lot of cars, especially if you have a manual transmission, and getting a 6.5" on axis enough in the door is pretty impractical too. You may get the passenger 6.5" on axis, but getting the driver's side on axis isn't going to happen for most people. It's somewhat practical to get the 6.5" more on axis than the OEM setup would have, but it's a lot of work, and usually you can only get a few degrees more on axis. So, you're much better off just finding a tweeter that can play low enough that the axis of the midwoofer doesn't matter. I've said over and over that if you want a great 2-way you can't skimp on the tweeter, and this is the very reason why.

This is one of the big advantages of a 3-way setup. You cross the midbass over low enough that the axis is irrelevant, you cross the midrange over low enough, and you use a tiny tweeter that can be mounted in any axis. A 3-way setup has it's drawbacks though, but this is one of the big advantages.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

thanks to you all for reaching out and helping greatly appreciated!


before I go any further I want to share my limits as I might be missunderstood I'am not saying the speakers will actually be on axis but will try to make them as much as possible.

my aim is to have this much toe/tilt in and up:

https://www.fiestaturbo.com/forums/c...akers-vt97397/

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8



or if that much isnt possible minimum this much:

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considering this is the limited tilt I can manage and that I will cross the tweeters around 2200-2500hz window do you guys think this is not worth the hassle or that it still has potential to make things better?
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

Probably not worth the hassle.
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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

This may help as a visual on beaming, speaker sizes and crossover frequencies.
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Default

My biggest concern here is 2200hz at 12db/octave on a smaller than a 2" tweeter.
I hope you enjoy changing tweeters often.
Maybe at very low power and volume but any any decent power and volume level I wouldn't expect them to last long

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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

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Originally Posted by Mic10is View Post
My biggest concern here is 2200hz at 12db/octave on a smaller than a 2" tweeter.
I hope you enjoy changing tweeters often.
Maybe at very low power and volume but any any decent power and volume level I wouldn't expect them to last long
The MD-102 tweeters are pretty large. The manual actually recommends the frequency of 2200 hz. Before I had a midrange, I crossed them at 2500 hz with a 24db slope and had no issues.


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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

its a 1.1" tweeter w an FS of 1300hz.
24/octave is very different than 12db/octave.
Just bc the speaker can play a certain frequency, doesnt mean it should. technically you could cross a tweeter at 50hz--it will play it, but for how long and for how loud is the bigger question.

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Default Re: aiming midbass on 2 way front?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mic10is View Post
its a 1.1" tweeter w an FS of 1300hz.
24/octave is very different than 12db/octave.
Just bc the speaker can play a certain frequency, doesnt mean it should. technically you could cross a tweeter at 50hz--it will play it, but for how long and for how loud is the bigger question.


they are crossed 2200hz 12db from factory on the passive crossovers,
also I have used Pioneer C172PRS tweeters that were crossed 1900hz using 12db that were feed 35rms and they played without breaking a sweat for close to a year before I sold them.

the mentioned prs tweeters are also crossed 1900hz 12db from factory and are 1mm smaller in size ( not that it will make a difference)


emailed dynaudio and they confirmed 2200hz 12db will be just fine but gave a side note that I shouldnt just go by paper values and should experiment but nonetheless point is they can definatley play 2200hz for others who might want to know in the future.
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