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Old 04-07-2019   #1
 
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Default Some horn questions.

So i've been reading up on horn placement and there seems to be an actual bit of aiming for horns. It's not always about getting them as deep and wide as possible, but more of making sure the PLD between the driver side and the passenger side is the same to opposite ears of the person driving. And something along the lines of aiming the line between the middle of the throat and some point on the horns to aim at the opposite side of the car.

1:15 on this video explaining it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdEX...8DB575&index=3

I've never really understood the whole point of PLD in regards to ITD and IID in a biased side eq and reflection arena like a car. Even with exact PLD of the voice coil, you are still going to have massively different reflections for the frequencies those drivers are playing and i am sure the different arrival times of those Different reflections per side, are going to severely screw with your brains ability to figure out wtf its hearing. That and those different reflections are going to cause huge eq differences so you'll have to eq one side to sound better anyway which means the whole two seat idea will be defeated in the first place as one will always be far superior.

Maybe i am just arguing the pointlessness of a 2 seat system without upmixing and a center channel...meh. Lets not go there.


I am also confused on the whole 3 way front stage + sub, in a horn system. If your midbass are in kicks and mid-range in doors and horns against the firewall. The midbass and horns are aligned distance wise pretty closely but any info the door mid plays is going to severely screw with the stage. There is also the issue of different dispersion patterns of cones and horns, even under beaming.

A 3 way is to keep that IMD(??) or excursion related distortion out of the lower mid-range but it seems to be at a trade off of introducing a lot more issues that having another driver would add.

The ES horns are designed to throw energy at the opposite side of the car by having the long side of the horn follow the contours of a typical dash but the installs i see where the end of mouth is flush with the firewall(motor in engine compartment), or even just way deeper than would be vertically-ish flush with the dash. They all seem to kinda defeat the purpose of the design of that horn. The energy isn't following the lines of the dash anymore. They are just playing under the dash and having who knows what reflections. The long side of the horn is playing directly into the dash and not using the dash as a guide at all.

So my questions are.

How much aiming should actually be done with a horn? Is it just a matter of burying it as deep as possible and say fuck all to dash contours, or is it better to have the motor not as deep but really use the design of the car and horn in unison to make smooth transitions?

In a horn install. Is it really better to have a 3 way plus sub, vs a 2 way+ sub?

A 2 way system would have a large format midbass that plays to 1200hz, with a hlcd playing up from there. Both drivers are pretty damn close to each other's path length. You deal with the added distortion of IMD(i hope im using that correctly) but you gain a more cohesive wavefront, but perhaps lose in the realm of beaming. It also justifies the price of say ES $700 car focused horns.

If you add a 3rd driver per side. You can either put the midbass or the mid in kicks. I'd assume that the midbass in doors and mid in kicks would be the better option, but then your install gets far more complicated because you now have to build an enclosure big enough for a large format midbass driver...because absolutely F%$# doors as enclosures.

The stage should be pretty good because both hlcd and mids drivers are pretty deep but you now have 2 cones drivers, and 1 HLCD, per side. Beaming is far better accounted for and everything will be playing below beaming, giving you a better stage and far far less location ques. The downside being that the whole thing seems like a huge amount of money for whats essentially a tweeter that plays down to 1200hz and Its REALLY hard for me to do so much install and shell out any decent amount of money for a mid that only plays say 150hz-1200hz.
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Old 04-07-2019   #2
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Too long to answer all this

But for most of (90%) of the frequencies horns play
Level is dominant, so if most the sound is pushed to the other side than that makes a more equal level on both sides for all frequencies, and the level differences between left and right is by majority direct sound and not reflected sound by the shape of the horn

If the left horn puts the majority of its sound go to the right, than your right ear will pick up as much or more of the left horn
Than the right horn plays most of its goes to the left , so again your right ear picks up more of the sound , so what happens in frequencies where level is dominate and the majority of left and right info is in the center of car? A center image is forced! And the mirror of that happens on the other seat.

If you play the horns down below 1.2khz it becomes critical on its placement to the dash and itís aiming

Having them parallel with the floor and each other is a excellent place to start and in most instances will be ideal as thatís how there designed. However thereís a caveat, the freaky ness of a car and itís unpredictability of how acoustically it handles and behaves makes a no set rule to aiming. Some minor (and I mean minor) tweaks may need to be made in angleing to get them to work together as a pair.

You just have to get on board and buy a set. Youíll never go back to tweeters again

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Old 04-08-2019   #3
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Yeah you're really into it! Man you'll finish deaf with these if you don't pay attention
I saw you moved up a lot of good thread recently, this one was not bad about dispersion patterns: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...frequency.html
But the entire HLCD forum is a bible, lot of good stuff there and you should find almost all answers.

I get your comments about mids in door & kicks in footwell, sure itís not ideal but still a good compromise especially if you want width.
Also depends of the cabin shape, kicks could be very deep almost firewall or right near the door, so appearing ę*wider*Ľ.

What kind of car is it, can you fit full bodies?
2w is definilty great, but needs a sub playing highers.
Aiming will also affect tunnel reflections, can be a problem depending of its shape and material.

btw you want a 2 seats tune? (never bothered that so can;t help)
But don't overthink all this at first, try them.
Honestly it's really hard to get an idea of the dispersion pattern of the entire thing. And even with an unoptimized setup like my first time, it was so much fun, impact/dynamic, low distortion, better ratio direct/reflected sound.
And it's so easy to mount/modify and test, I can remove them in 2 min now when I lend my car.

I think I still have some drivers around if you want to test, can lend you some full body if you want. I might even have more horns, need time to check.

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Old 04-08-2019   #4
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Yeah you're really into it! Man you'll finish deaf with these if you don't pay attention
I saw you moved up a lot of good thread recently, this one was not bad about dispersion patterns: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...frequency.html
But the entire HLCD forum is a bible, lot of good stuff there and you should find almost all answers.

I get your comments about mids in door & kicks in footwell, sure itís not ideal but still a good compromise especially if you want width.
Also depends of the cabin shape, kicks could be very deep almost firewall or right near the door, so appearing ę*wider*Ľ.

What kind of car is it, can you fit full bodies?
2w is definilty great, but needs a sub playing highers.
Aiming will also affect tunnel reflections, can be a problem depending of its shape and material.

btw you want a 2 seats tune? (never bothered that so can;t help)
But don't overthink all this at first, try them.
Honestly it's really hard to get an idea of the dispersion pattern of the entire thing. And even with an unoptimized setup like my first time, it was so much fun, impact/dynamic, low distortion, better ratio direct/reflected sound.
And it's so easy to mount/modify and test, I can remove them in 2 min now when I lend my car.

I think I still have some drivers around if you want to test, can lend you some full body if you want. I might even have more horns, need time to check.
Haha. I was REALLY looking into it..and then you know the 8x12 DL got announced and im sitting here like..$900 processor or $700 horns. Gotta pick one and only one. Welp.

I really like my system now and it's NOWHERE near the level it could be if someone who could actually tune did it but..you know..tinkering is almost more fun than actually having a put together finished system. (>.>) haha. I also like the being different factor.

I went to a local comp a few weeks ago and ended up giving a ton of demos. "Are you that guy with the 10s in the kicks and the furry doors?" loll. i got asked that like 8 times. I like to stand out :P and horns would be fun to try out. Plus i'd like to learn how they work so i can possibly help a few spl guys simplify their installs without having massive walls of drivers on their doors to "keep up".

There is a ton of information in the forum section. A lot of 2011 info that i have to take with a grain of salt, knowing they didn't have anywhere near the processor capabilities that i have access too. If nothing else, i've learned who to send my questions to. Namely Mic10 and Eric.

I asked E.S. about a 3 way and this was his response(also, is there a forum rule saying you can't post in threads what someone said in a PM?)

Background, Mic was telling me about crossovers for a 3 way.

E. S. vvvvvv

"3 way set as referenced by Mic Wallace is to get up front bass from both seats with rear mounted subwoofers. To get the best sound stage for a 2 seat system you will flip polarity of one midbass and the result is the sub will anchor up front for the nearest listener but not the other. With a dedicated midbass up front playing up to 180 or so you can anchor the sub up front and flip polarity above 180 to get both up front bass and good sound stage from both seats.With an HLCD system the midbass dont play high enough to benefit much from a reduction in doppler distortion, they arent covering as many octaves as a 6.5" playing to 3500/4000 hz."



For anyone reading: Doppler distortion being distortion that is introduced when a speaker playing midrange is also playing frequencies that require high excursion, generally X<100hz. (I think lol). Hence the reason we have one speaker play large excursion freq, and another play the rest.( I think lol)

Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Anyway, it sounds to me like it might actually be better to run a 2 way+ sub if your goal is to run a 1 seat HLCD system, and a 3 way+ sub if your goal is to run a two seat system.

i got some measurements from E. S. on his Minis and full bodies. Ill make some cardboard mock ups this weekend and see what my options are. Just from reading the HLCD section. It looks like the top contenders in competition are running minis in a car. If its a truck, they run full bodies. Something to do with needing that large body to get past the massive center/dash console. I'll have to get clarification on that from E.S. but that's my general notion from reading.

Car is a 4 door sedan. The Camry .


I already have 10s in the kicks so fitting some ES 8s would be a cinch. Maybe i could find a 10 instead :3

Sadly, the Fi ib3s do all of 44hz before dropping so i wouldn't be able to use them with much effect..and that 5in baffle is PRETTY DAMN IN THERE. If i found i liked the HLCD and HE 8 or 10 enough to switch the substage. I'd probably go back to my SSA Icons. Those things are marvelous. but jesus, it would be no small feat getting the Fi's out.

"Trying" horns might be a bit boring for me at this point. I already have an obnoxious system. I am more of a..read everything i possibly can. Ask as many questions as i need..andddd start cutting into my firewall, type of person.

What Mic10 did was put (eggcrate?) foam on the inside of the console and i think he said something about an absorption panel on the door as well. I could see that helping with the direct sound when its so far in the kicks/firewall. Pic below shows it pretty well but wrapped in microsuede.



There is a lot of consensus on the transition from horn to dash being smooth having an huge impact on the overall sound. Though, even in the hlcd final winning cars. I don't see a Ton of effort put into that. I was thinking maybe using painters tape to create a smooth transition directly from the end of the mouth towards every corner of the dash. Then glassing it with 2-3 layers of that thin Walmart fiberglass cloth. Should work nicely, but thats thinking a lot into the future.

I have a lot more questions and reading to do before i try any installs with borrowed horns and honestly... that Dirac is looking perrrrttyyy sexy. Maybe Oab will get one and make my life easy for figuring it out.

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Old 04-08-2019   #5
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

you Should be able to do full-size with a neo no problem

And the size of that floor is huge

That car should sound excellent

Get the horns first if you have a dsp or a way to tune , do the Dirac box later

Itís way better experience to tune a set of horns on your own and get to know how they behave with eq and power . I would pick the path of learning first, than get the Dirac box later , and by that time youíll have the experience with them to know what to do and listen for


Just make sure there mounted correctly and donít try and put the horns up high or do silly stuff with them , do it right and use them how it should be done and conquer that first, than play around , but no joke take at least a year with proper underdash mount and a manual dsp. You will learn a shit ton and become a pro by the experience


Grosso is right they will fry your hair if not under control, I have days where I like to listen loud , itís very easy at first to over gain them because the added volume is there , and the only thing that sounds good with them is a dynamic trance song. Donít do that, get normal music to sound very good first, donít be that guy.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 04-08-2019   #6
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
you Should be able to do full-size with a neo no problem



And the size of that floor is huge



That car should sound excellent



Get the horns first if you have a dsp or a way to tune , do the Dirac box later



Itís way better experience to tune a set of horns on your own and get to know how they behave with eq and power . I would pick the path of learning first, than get the Dirac box later , and by that time youíll have the experience with them to know what to do and listen for





Just make sure there mounted correctly and donít try and put the horns up high or do silly stuff with them , do it right and use them how it should be done and conquer that first, than play around , but no joke take at least a year with proper underdash mount and a manual dsp. You will learn a shit ton and become a pro by the experience
Did Oab just tell me not to run Dirac? Did that just happen? No wayyy.

I suppose mounting horns normally flush with dash would be a good start and then when im happy, move onto pushing them back farther. So i have an idea of improvements and cons.

You're taking my fun away with your logic.

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Old 04-08-2019   #7
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
Did Oab just tell me not to run Dirac? Did that just happen? No wayyy

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Yes. With Stevens horns yes. Learn them first

I edited my post ^ added another paragraph, and thatís why .

Get them! But go through the learning process. Itís priceless.
Youíll know how to tune a set of horns with a Dirac box like a boss once you know how to get them to sound good on normal music , not just ravers stuffs

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 04-08-2019   #8
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
you Should be able to do full-size with a neo no problem



And the size of that floor is huge



That car should sound excellent



Get the horns first if you have a dsp or a way to tune , do the Dirac box later



Itís way better experience to tune a set of horns on your own and get to know how they behave with eq and power . I would pick the path of learning first, than get the Dirac box later , and by that time youíll have the experience with them to know what to do and listen for





Just make sure there mounted correctly and donít try and put the horns up high or do silly stuff with them , do it right and use them how it should be done and conquer that first, than play around , but no joke take at least a year with proper underdash mount and a manual dsp. You will learn a shit ton and become a pro by the experience





Grosso is right they will fry your hair if not under control, I have days where I like to listen loud , itís very easy at first to over gain them because the added volume is there , and the only thing that sounds good with them is a dynamic trance song. Donít do that, get normal music to sound very good first, donít be that guy.
You're making this sound like a whole new tuning experience...like its different than tuning a cone based car. Im not sure how i feel about that. I have a helix dsp.2 and the car already sounds great. I'd like to think the tuning experience is there. It shouldn't be much different than what I've already done other than sensitivity being high.

Or is this a totally different beast?

And how do you normally measure them? I've been doing Hanatsu style since day 1. Has worked for me thus far.

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Old 04-09-2019   #9
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
You're making this sound like a whole new tuning experience...like its different than tuning a cone based car. Im not sure how i feel about that. I have a helix dsp.2 and the car already sounds great. I'd like to think the tuning experience is there. It shouldn't be much different than what I've already done other than sensitivity being high.

Or is this a totally different beast?

And how do you normally measure them? I've been doing Hanatsu style since day 1. Has worked for me thus far.

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I tune all systems using the same process, HLCD system are not different to tune nor are they more difficult. Problem for most is they have developed short cuts or bad habits and the poor results are much more evident.
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Old 04-09-2019   #10
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Improved PLD is always going to yield a corresponding improvement in sound stage and imaging as long as you dont sacrfice other factors. PLD is most important consideration because of the three factors at work in stereo reproduction " arrival" "phase" and "amplitude" the arrival is the strongest determining factor through the midrange frequency spectrum.

Reflections are a consideration and the Stevens HLCD design address the problem with their dispersion pattern. As the frequency gets longer the problems associated with reflections is minimized in the direct versus reflected energy side of the problem and shifts to one of standing waves and cancelations. Dont concern yourself with matching polar response at the crossover in a car, that is appropriate for a listening room environment. First people shoudl get their car to even produce a proper sound stage before worying about how the low level reflections are affecting the system.

I have heard many 2 seat systems with simple 2 way HLCD + Midbass and subwoofer that produced an excellent soundstage with focused images and natural space and depth to the images within the sound stage. I have never heard with a center channel that I really liked and that rivalled the best 2 channel systems I have heard.

When considering placement you have to consider the dominant factor of the three for placement of images within the sound stage. Midbass can be in the door or have worse PLD because as the frequency gets lower placement of images within the sound stage is dominated by phase more than time or amplitude. That said it is still best to get PLD as small as possible.
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Old 04-09-2019   #11
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
I suppose mounting horns normally flush with dash would be a good start and then when im happy, move onto pushing them back farther. So i have an idea of improvements and cons.
Start with them as far left and right as possible and push back under dash as far as possible.

You need to make sure the underside of the dash in front of the horn is finished off though. Carpeted double wall cardboard is sufficient.
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Old 04-09-2019   #12
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
You're making this sound like a whole new tuning experience...like its different than tuning a cone based car. Im not sure how i feel about that. I have a helix dsp.2 and the car already sounds great. I'd like to think the tuning experience is there. It shouldn't be much different than what I've already done other than sensitivity being high.

Or is this a totally different beast?

And how do you normally measure them? I've been doing Hanatsu style since day 1. Has worked for me thus far.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

Eric said it very well ,
I especially like what he said about not worrying about lower phase issues
And to worry more about getting the stage right.


I was on the technical forum trying to explain that and got flamed over it but itís so true

If you have a ďdelayĒ setting that dosent match the actual distances but it sounds way better and makes the stage higher and farther why wouldnít you go with that (within .5ms or so)

Like Eric said they tune like a speaker because they are one ,
But youíll have way better results and a much more enjoyable system with a regular dsp and horns vs going and buying a room correction dsp with your speakers.

The room correction thing is fun , but itís not necessary to have a kick ass system with a solid soundstage and with horns itís pretty easy to get if you follow the steps and donít rush through it or arenít just about loud.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 04-09-2019   #13
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post

Like Eric said they tune like a speaker because they are one ,
But youíll have way better results and a much more enjoyable system with a regular dsp and horns vs going and buying a room correction dsp with your speakers.
This. ES horns just work. You have plenty of processing for them. Try them already.
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Old 04-09-2019   #14
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

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This. ES horns just work. Try them already.
$700. Working on it.

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Old 04-09-2019   #15
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

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$700. Working on it.

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If you have the room you can start with the cheaper set. They aren't much bigger anyway.

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Old 04-09-2019   #16
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

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Start with them as far left and right as possible and push back under dash as far as possible.

You need to make sure the underside of the dash in front of the horn is finished off though. Carpeted double wall cardboard is sufficient.
Seeing the pic of my car and knowing id be going with your 8s as well. Would you recommend the Fulls or the minis?
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Old 04-09-2019   #17
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

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Seeing the pic of my car and knowing id be going with your 8s as well. Would you recommend the Fulls or the minis?
I prefer full size so recommend them when they will fit. Either will work well though and MH will disappear and be less visible. MB8 is very good to well over 3Khz and not beaming at 1200 Hz so you can go with either.
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Old 04-10-2019   #18
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Seeing the pic of my car and knowing id be going with your 8s as well. Would you recommend the Fulls or the minis?
I prefer full size so recommend them when they will fit. Either will work well though and MH will disappear and be less visible. MB8 is very good to well over 3Khz and not beaming at 1200 Hz so you can go with either.
Eric, do I remember correctly that the mini horns have a steeper far side cross pattern and is useful in very wide vehicles like trucks? If so, I'm understanding that you always want to use a large body in a car if it will fit?
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Old 04-10-2019   #19
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

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Car is a 4 door sedan. The Camry .
If not deep that seems wide and well opened. Can you remove the central console?
It's a front wheel drive right? Maybe thereís still some stuff for the transmission but it should be easy to make it smaller and less reflective.

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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Full size mock up. Could most likely get an in or two more on the passenger side by moving the kick panel. I'd have to rebuild the kicks enclosure for 8s mist likely. Might need the clearance

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Default Re: Some horn questions.

...such a filthy car

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Old 04-11-2019   #22
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

Not sure if you have been to the Stevens Audio Group page on Facebook, but there is a fellow there that has just installed a set of the full-size horns in a 2003 Camry... might be worth a visit.

I think that getting the passenger side horn further toward the door would be a good thing.

HTH

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Old 04-12-2019   #23
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

try to get that driver side back further if possible

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Old 04-13-2019   #24
 
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

What about miniHLCD when all else fail minis fit everything (with enormous amounts of zip ties and blackstrap)

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Default Re: Some horn questions.

How big are the normal and Mini?

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