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Old 01-17-2019   #426
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Hi guys, i have been playing with Rew quiet some time now. I just have the same question to confirm, does the volume level in dB will affect the end result. I found that it will, especially in the upper midrange and hi. Thanks for feedback.

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Old 01-21-2019   #427
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Quote:
Originally Posted by preston View Post
People always talk about not being afraid of using too much cut wher eyou need it but EQ is adding its own phase shifts etc. to the music and you're better off with a little bit more ragged freq than a giant whack to the signal. IMO of course.

If the EQ applied is resulting in flatter frequency response, then the phase shifts that accompany the EQ will actually be a good thing, not bad.

Flat frequency response yields smooth phase response.

Itís when the frequency response is not smooth and flat that the phase shifts will be more harsh. Large peaks or dips in response will have bad phase shifts.



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Old 01-21-2019   #428
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
If the EQ applied is resulting in flatter frequency response, then the phase shifts that accompany the EQ will actually be a good thing, not bad.

Flat frequency response yields smooth phase response.

Itís when the frequency response is not smooth and flat that the phase shifts will be more harsh. Large peaks or dips in response will have bad phase shifts.



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this. a given frequency response have a given phase response. when your fixing frequency response, your ALSO fixing the phase.

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Old 01-22-2019   #429
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Interesting. I'm not nearly the expert you guys are so I'm not arguing with you, but....You are measuring the Freq from a microphone at an averaged point in the car. When you apply EQ you are molesting the electronic signal. It seems a bit optimistic to think that as it translates through to the speaker and the air waves that it all comes back into sync without any "distortion" (I'm using that word colloquially) even if REW now says its flat.

I think we would agree that less molestation of the electronic signal would be ideal. I've just found I prefer keeping my cuts to 6dB or less regardless of what REW says. Sometimes I'll cut a little adjacent or modify the Q to reach my goals instead. But I'm not an expert and have never worked with an expert so maybe I have other issues like how I interpret the graphs or my measurement methods or what else. I only know what I like to hear !

I actually have a BSEE degree from back in '89 although I was never that good of an electrical engineer, but I don't really understand this "when your fixing frequency response, your ALSO fixing the phase." Not sure we need to dive into that discussion though unless you have a simple way to illustrate that.
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Old 01-22-2019   #430
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Its really not that hard to grasp. An electric signal is completely different than the acoustic one.

Say i give my speaker a flat 20-20khz signal from phone to the amp through an aux to rca cable. (Ignore any ideas about phone eq affecting anything.)

The speaker is going to receive that flat signal and then all the speaker parts start to come into play and the speaker plays music. The T/S specs, the cone break up, the enclosure, the room acoustics, the resonances of everything around it.

Soundwaves are flying around.

Now the mic comes into play. You can measure a single spot. Anywhere in the car and the response will be different.

Flat signal electrical, wildly different acoustic response.

So how do we fix that. A DSP.

So lets over simplify. Lets ignore 99% of whats going on in a vehicle and just say that you give a speaker a flat signal and you're measuring at the headrest, a single spot.. You get a 5db bump at 500hz. Everything else on response is totally flat.

How do we fix that? Well. You modify the electrical signal so that it has the inverse of that 5db 500hz bump. (A parametric filter .The headrest will now measure flat.

Now throw everything about physics back in and add high pass and low pass and 31 bands of eq per driver and t/a and all pass filters and spatial averaging, and you can see why dsps are necessary and "molesting" the signal is necessary.




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Old 01-22-2019   #431
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

You mis-interpret me. I'm not saying don't use EQ, and I understand why we do it. I'm saying that the acoustic energy in the room/car is "elastic" in the sense that things are reflecting and bouncing all over the place and moving a mic a few inches this way and that can change what you are measuring. Its not like there is this perfect mathematical summation/resolution between the EQ applied to the signal and the acoustical signal. Its always been one of the primary pursuits of audiophilism, the attempt to reduce as much as possible those things that affect the pure signal. You don't see home audio so focused on active x-overs and EQ because they dont face the problems we do in a vehicle. I'm just saying that while we have to tame the acoustic response, there are tradeoffs and when you have a big boost/cut that tradeoff may be to not push that slider down all the way until your REW looks like a dream. And maybe I'm wrong about that, I've never worked with an expert pair of ears, I've just found that if I have a tuning session where I've made a lot of drastic cuts or boosts, if I go back through and listen to music, i sometimes find it sounds better smoothing out some of that EQ. Not going to flat, but just not getting crazy with the sliders.
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Old 01-22-2019   #432
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Your right. reflections and whatnot are going to cause issues with the response and phase, BUT.. if you measure a single driver, its phase response is fully correlated to the frequency response. They go hand in hand. So when you are correcting frequency response you are ALSO correcting the phase response. Of course there are some situations where things arent as predictable because of the f'd up nature of a car, but its usually nothing to worry about. fix the frequency response.

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Old 01-23-2019   #433
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

I ended up painting last weekend and did not touch my system at all like I had planned. I've changed the crossovers around just to try it but nothing else. Maybe this weekend. I want to give the AutoEQ a try before giving it a go myself especially so I can learn more about using REW. Should I take new measurements with the crossovers I've selected and then to the AUtoEQ based on that or should I use the measurements that have no processing? Or is this another try it both ways and see which works better scenario?
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Old 02-08-2019   #434
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Is this tutorial consolidated somewhere?

I am drowning in all the info spread out over so many pages. First time REW user, actually just got my UMIK-1 in the mail so trying to figure it all out.
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Old 02-08-2019   #435
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Quote:
Originally Posted by diy_darryl View Post
Is this tutorial consolidated somewhere?

I am drowning in all the info spread out over so many pages. First time REW user, actually just got my UMIK-1 in the mail so trying to figure it all out.
Someone consolidated all Hanatsu's post into one guide. I've got it on my personal laptop (I'm at work right now). I'll post it again for those that want it when I get home, but I'm pretty sure the original is somewhere in this post.
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Old 02-08-2019   #436
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

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Originally Posted by ominous View Post
Someone consolidated all Hanatsu's post into one guide. I've got it on my personal laptop (I'm at work right now). I'll post it again for those that want it when I get home, but I'm pretty sure the original is somewhere in this post.
Thank You! I thought I read all 18 pages but must have missed it somehow.
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Old 02-08-2019   #437
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

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Originally Posted by diy_darryl View Post
Thank You! I thought I read all 18 pages but must have missed it somehow.
Here you go.
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Old 02-12-2019   #438
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

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Originally Posted by ominous View Post
Here you go.
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Old 03-15-2019   #439
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

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Damn, you da man! thanks
The house curve link on page 10 is dead... anyone have a copy they can put up here? Thanks!
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Old 03-15-2019   #440
 
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

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Originally Posted by flgfish View Post
The house curve link on page 10 is dead... anyone have a copy they can put up here? Thanks!
If it's the generic target curve in post #45, this is it. (copy and paste into text file)
20 13
50 10
80 7
120 4
200 0
500 -1
1000 -2
2000 -5
4000 -8
10000 -13
20000 -15
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #441
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

used this thread to run sweeps instead of pink noise as i was having a hard time and it has worked out well... i think lol, new to this and i dont know anyone around st pete that i can bother for help..

let me know what you guys think and if i need more attention in certain areas. using SI 3 way with a SI 3.5 for center as well in 2015 f150 plat. hence why the 1500 mark is so high i think.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #442
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

simpler over all view
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #443
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Post graphs in 5db per vertical division and 6db or var smoothing plz


Looks like a good start. Might need to tweak levels on some drivers.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #444
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

graph showing FRFL Woofers combined FRFL mid drivers combined, FR tweeters an FL tweeters separate, SubWoofer and Center channel. All with Var smoothing and 5 DB vertical graph
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #445
 
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Default

Looks like you've got a great start. I'd adjust tweeter levels to match a bit closer. One side appears to be 5db louder, shouldn't be too difficult to bring that down to match.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #446
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Zazzi View Post
Great work Hanatsu, I really look forward to seeing this develop further.

Do you plan to talk about connecting the 2nd channel in a "loopback" configuration? I find it is exceptionally useful for time alignment.
Sorry to tag you Justin, can you provide a picture of how to cable up an interface for loopback measurement (or point me towards somewhere that has one), I have an m-audio usb mobile preamp on its way to me as I type and a Dayton mic as the current Behringer ones donít get decent reviews...

I want to specifically do just what you speak of...

Or the same question for hanatsu...

Iíve seen various guides and I believe itís routing the output of the device that comes from the left channel into the right channels input or something like that so it can see when itís timing pulse is sent out and compare that to when it sees it on the mic and effectively zero that so you just get an accurate time of the impulse

Also what do you use for impulse response? Rew or holm?
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Old 3 Days Ago   #447
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Default Re: First-timers guide to measuring your system

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Sorry to tag you Justin, can you provide a picture of how to cable up an interface for loopback measurement (or point me towards somewhere that has one), I have an m-audio usb mobile preamp on its way to me as I type and a Dayton mic as the current Behringer ones donít get decent reviews...

I want to specifically do just what you speak of...

Or the same question for hanatsu...

Iíve seen various guides and I believe itís routing the output of the device that comes from the left channel into the right channels input or something like that so it can see when itís timing pulse is sent out and compare that to when it sees it on the mic and effectively zero that so you just get an accurate time of the impulse

Also what do you use for impulse response? Rew or holm?
If your using a USB mic I think you'll need to use HOLMImpulse because REW will not do time-domain via USB from what I remember.

Also, I think subterFUSE posted a napkin sketch flowchart of a basic loopback setup earlier in the thread. But yes, you basically take an output from your audio interface and route it back to another input.
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