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Old 03-31-2006   #26
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

I don't think you can compare the two. Completely different drivers.

A speaker is only as good as the room you put it in.
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Old 03-31-2006   #27
 
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Hmmm so help a brotha out =)
midbass...dedicated midbass...which one??
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Old 03-31-2006   #28
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Hey, how long do you have to make your decision?

If I get some free time I will hook up my L18 to my 4.0 and see if I notice a difference in its performance from the 6.0.

I think you might want the 4 ohm driver for your situation.
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Old 07-27-2006   #29
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

i've been reading npdang's article for very long and trying to get it in my head and understand it..and i came up with the figures to explain what npdang is saying.. (i can't quite compute it so i just have to list it down)

speaker A
4 ohm
[email protected] = 2watts and 0.7075A current draw

speaker B
8ohm
[email protected] = 1watts and 0.35375A current draw

amp X
16w @ 4ohm
8w @ 8ohm

every double of power would be +3dB, it can be said that both speaker A & B would play at the same loudness levels if pushed by amp X

speaker A + amp X
2 watt = 90dB
4 watt = 93dB
8 watt = 96dB
16 watt = 99dB

speaker A + amp X
1 watt = 90dB
2 watt = 93dB
4 watt = 96dB
8 watt = 99dB

the difference would be that @ higher impedence, the draw would be at higher voltages but at lower current draw... or in other words..less load..

i hope i am accurate..else do correct me. i was reading npdang's explaination but i couldnt visualize it..until i came up with the figures above.. simply put, its all about matching the impedance and sensitivity of the speaker to the amp. an amp rated for 4ohm would work at 8ohm, and most of the time, with less effort.

Last edited by avaxis; 07-27-2006 at 08:11 AM..
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Old 07-27-2006   #30
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Here is a post i made a while back trying to simplify the info in this thread:

Quote:
A quick summary (hopefully simplified version) of the tech post.

You need to look at the sensitivity ratings of each driver and how they are rated.


If both are rated 1w/1m you need to be 3db higher sensitivity to get the same output with 8 ohm vs 4 ohm

If both are rated 2.83v/1m you need to be the same or higher to get the same (or better) output.


The reasoning is if both speakers are rated with 1watt that is assuming same power to both speakers, since you will be applying half power you will get half output (-3db) so if the speaker is +3db sensitivity or higher you are overcoming that loss of power.

If both are rated with 2.83v that means the 4 ohm speaker was getting 2 watts while the 8ohm speaker was only getting 1 watt, that means that the 4 ohm speaker was given a 3db boost in sensitivity numbers given the same power. So 4ohm-3db = 8ohm given the same power. However since we are only giving half power to the 8 ohm driver our equation is going to be more like 4ohm-3db=8ohm-3db. Obviously the "-3db" part cancels itself out, so as long as sensitivity is the same or better you will get just as loud.


On top of that the way 8ohm drivers are built leads to higher sensitivity ratings so you are more likely to find 8 ohm speakers that can meet the above sensitivity goals.

Hope that helps

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Old 07-27-2006   #31
 
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Yea so effectively, running an 8ohm load on an amp that is rated at 4ohms, is 1/2 the power of the 4ohm load, but can be just as loud, given the spl/w, if 2 speakers have the same spl lvls' but different imp. the higher imp. or 8ohm load will be run cooler, etc.

Only other reason i would run a 4ohm driver is to just get loads and loads more power out of an amp.

For instance, i'll be running LPG 26's at 8ohms, 82rms @4ohms, diyma 2" at 5ohms, 82rms @ 4ohms, possibly a pair of extremis 6.4's at 4ohm, 160wrms @4ohms.
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Old 08-13-2006   #32
 
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

I'm running a pair of Auras NS3, 8ohms and (very) low sensitivity. No problem at all powered by 2 x 40W amp with the gains about 75%. They keep the pace with the midbass and Sub powered by a 75 x 4 Eclipse amp. If these drivers work ok, I could guess that any other "popular" 8 ohmer should work too.
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Old 08-31-2006   #33
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

I have a 4 channel amp that I'm using to power the tweeters and mid-woofers on my 3Way active system. Currently, 2 channels are connected to the tweets at 4 Ohm and the other 2 channels are for the mid-woofers, also at 4 Ohm...
Let's say I buy a set of 8 Ohm woofers, to exchange for the actual 4 Ohm ones that I have installed. Will the amp work fine? In this case, I would have 2 channels for the tweets at 4 Ohm and the other 2 at 8 Ohm! Is this possible? The amp is rated 4x75W RMS...
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Old 08-31-2006   #34
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by scar19
Let's say I buy a set of 8 Ohm woofers, to exchange for the actual 4 Ohm ones that I have installed. Will the amp work fine? In this case, I would have 2 channels for the tweets at 4 Ohm and the other 2 at 8 Ohm! Is this possible?

No problem. Keeping in mind the subject matter of this thread, you should be able to achieve similar output levels (provided that you choose drivers wisely) while putting less demand on your amp.
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Old 11-17-2006   #35
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

And this is why I think all speakers should be rated at 1w/1m. This way all speakers can easily be compared
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Old 11-18-2006   #36
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 03blueSI
And this is why I think all speakers should be rated at 1w/1m. This way all speakers can easily be compared

^^true dat
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Old 01-15-2007   #37
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

hope you don't hate me for digging this one up...

back on the topic of efficiency...
A colleague of mine insists that efficiency at 1W is meaningless when you apply a lot of power to a speaker, calling it power compression loss.
I understand the concept, but I want to know if it is true, and why....

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Old 01-15-2007   #38
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulse-R
hope you don't hate me for digging this one up...

back on the topic of efficiency...
A colleague of mine insists that efficiency at 1W is meaningless when you apply a lot of power to a speaker, calling it power compression loss.
I understand the concept, but I want to know if it is true, and why....
The resistance of the voice coil increases with increasing temperature. That's true (to some extent) of all conductors. Hell, that's how a light bulb works.

Although I'd hesitate to call power compression a "loss". A loss implies a loss in efficiency, but usually carries the connotation of waste. True, system efficiency decreases with power compression, but it's not being lost in transduction or wasted per se (ie. it's not being converted to heat or something).
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Old 01-15-2007   #39
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

given the fact that many DIY enthusiasts tend to change power output to each driver (like buying a 50 watt amp for the tweeters and a 350 watt amp for midbass drivers), and that the DIY enthusiasts tent to have advanced signal processors that allow for tuning individual gain between each drivers for the purpose of output matching, Ive never really concerned myself much with efficiency.

Dont get me wrong, I always check it and keep it in mind. just in case. But I see it as a qualitative spec rather than quantitative, and until I run or install a passive stage ill never use efficiency as a "deal breaker" when picking drivers.

so I CERTAINLY dont see 8 ohm drivers as a dealbreaker either! if the other performance specs fit my app, its the driver for me!
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Old 01-19-2007   #40
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Assuming no difference in efficiency, are there any disadvantages in using an 8ohm driver vs a corresponding 4ohmer? If there isnt, then why are 4ohm speakers the "standard" for automotive usage?
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Old 01-19-2007   #41
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit
given the fact that many DIY enthusiasts tend to change power output to each driver (like buying a 50 watt amp for the tweeters and a 350 watt amp for midbass drivers), and that the DIY enthusiasts tent to have advanced signal processors that allow for tuning individual gain between each drivers for the purpose of output matching, Ive never really concerned myself much with efficiency.

Dont get me wrong, I always check it and keep it in mind. just in case. But I see it as a qualitative spec rather than quantitative, and until I run or install a passive stage ill never use efficiency as a "deal breaker" when picking drivers.

so I CERTAINLY dont see 8 ohm drivers as a dealbreaker either! if the other performance specs fit my app, its the driver for me!
Efficiency becomes an important parameter when you start talking about high output applications. The overall output capabilities of the driver are dominated by efficiency. Personally, I think it's a pretty big deal, particularly in midrange and midbass applications where output limitations are often very real (partly due to their unique position of trying to achieve high frequency extension while still trying to move some air).
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Old 01-19-2007   #42
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by erickoh
Assuming no difference in efficiency, are there any disadvantages in using an 8ohm driver vs a corresponding 4ohmer? If there isnt, then why are 4ohm speakers the "standard" for automotive usage?
I can't think of any inherent disadvantages. In fact, some amplifiers will like it better, and amplifier design is a bit easier with higher impedance loads in mind.

From what I understand, the original rationale for lower impedance drivers in cars was the reluctance to use power supplies in amplifiers (and head units) that worked on voltages higher than 12v. With only 12v available, the only way to increase power is by lowering the impedance. With aftermarket amps, that problem goes away.

However, another reason to use low impedance drivers comes with the advent of switching amplifiers -- specifically, class D and "class T". The basic operation of this type of amplifier pretty much requires low impedance loads (although they can be designed around higher impedance loads).
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Old 01-19-2007   #43
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkZ
However, another reason to use low impedance drivers comes with the advent of switching amplifiers -- specifically, class D and "class T". The basic operation of this type of amplifier pretty much requires low impedance loads (although they can be designed around higher impedance loads).
Can you elaborate on that?

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Old 01-19-2007   #44
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Switching amplifiers are generally more efficient, and cost effective but tend to maximize their power output into low impedance loads.

A speaker is only as good as the room you put it in.
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Old 01-19-2007   #45
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Their basic design topology makes them more suitable for low impedance loads. The transistors "like" to switch rather than operate within their linear range. Also, in some class D amps, the output filter (which converts the pulsed representation of the signal into a usable audio signal) is supposedly optimized for the targeted impedances of the amp, which tends to be low.
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Old 01-20-2007   #46
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Thanks for the clarification.

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Old 01-20-2007   #47
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Thank you, that concern was at the back of my mind too, since I am using the alpine PDX amp but was considering trying the Seas L18 8ohmer. I guess I'll keep that project on hold for now
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Old 01-22-2007   #48
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

good god why? with 150 rms at your disposal what difference would it make if the driver were 1 ohm or 16 ohms?
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Old 01-22-2007   #49
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkZ
From what I understand, the original rationale for lower impedance drivers in cars was the reluctance to use power supplies in amplifiers (and head units) that worked on voltages higher than 12v. With only 12v available, the only way to increase power is by lowering the impedance. With aftermarket amps, that problem goes away.
Help me out; I don't understand how that problem goes away. Isn't the problem all about getting high amounts of power out of a 12V source? Regardless of the amp you have, you're still feeding off a 12V source, are you not? What am I missing?
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Old 01-22-2007   #50
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Default Re: The "Real Deal" with 8 ohm drivers

You're feeding off a 12v source no matter what, that's correct. But amplifiers convert that 12v into a higher voltage in order to achieve greater amounts of power. This requires a more complex and sizable power supply in the amp, which tends to take up about 1/4 of the total real estate in a typical amplifier (and about half of the heatsink). So it's not exactly trivial to stick a power supply that does that into something small and confined like a head unit, which is why most head units out there were faced with that 12v limit.
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