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Old 08-15-2017   #26
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
What does that have to do with that article? That book wasn't referenced.

In your above response, he didn't even mention "doubling SPL" but you negated his question with that.
The information from the article was taken from Fritz's work, and is referenced at the summation of that article.
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Old 08-15-2017   #27
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
How does it work then?
The speakers have numbers associated with them in terms of dB/watt.
So I assume I push an RMS watt in, and I should get the exact SPL dB/watt that they are rated at.

So if I have the amp cranked up to 3 dBW, then what does that equate to in a SPL dB(s) change compared to when it was at 0-dBW?
A speaker's sensitivity measurement, (i.e. 83dB/1w-1m) is a measurement of the ability of the driver to create a given SPL at 1 watt measured at 1 meter. This does not mean a doubling of power (2watt) will create 166dB/2w-1m, or that 4 watts (again a 3dB increase in power) will create 322dB/4w-1m.

Loudness volume doubling sound level change factor of perceived loudness decibel scale log compare intensities formula calculate power level noise levels volume logarithm dependence three four fold loudness sound - by what factor does level decrease
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Old 08-15-2017   #28
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
A speaker's sensitivity measurement, (i.e. 83dB/1w-1m) is a measurement of the ability of the driver to create a given SPL at 1 watt measured at 1 meter. This does not mean a doubling of power (2watt) will create 166dB/2w-1m, or that 4 watts (again a 3dB increase in power) will create 322dB/4w-1m.

Loudness volume doubling sound level change factor of perceived loudness decibel scale log compare intensities formula calculate power level noise levels volume logarithm dependence three four fold loudness sound - by what factor does level decrease
I am aware that when working in LOG space we add the number.
So my understanding is that...:
0dBW = 1W
3dBW = 2W
10dBW - 10W
20dBW = 100W
26dBW = 400W

Question1: Is the conversion of watts to dBW consistent with your understanding?

Question2: Does 1W give 83dB of SPL?

Question3: what does 2W yield?
(I am pretty confident that it is closer to 86dB of SPL than 166dB of SPL)
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Old 08-15-2017   #29
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY


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Old 08-15-2017   #30
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
Ohms dont matter at all other than power. There is zero audible difference other than loudness
The context was that I can get the same brand of subwoofer as either
1) 2-Ohms
2) 4-Ohms

The amp is rated at:
1) 500W (2-Ohms)
2) 300W (4-Ohms)

So I am tryng to understand whether the extra watts from a 2-Ohm is:
A) needed?
B) worthwhile?
C) lower SQ than the 4-Ohm?
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Old 08-15-2017   #31
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
The information from the article was taken from Fritz's work, and is referenced at the summation of that article.
I'm not the brightest bulb. I looked everywhere on that page for that reference. Could you identify where on that page it's located? It's definitely not published there... Was it a link?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
A speaker's sensitivity measurement, (i.e. 83dB/1w-1m) is a measurement of the ability of the driver to create a given SPL at 1 watt measured at 1 meter. This does not mean a doubling of power (2watt) will create 166dB/2w-1m, or that 4 watts (again a 3dB increase in power) will create 322dB/4w-1m.

Loudness volume doubling sound level change factor of perceived loudness decibel scale log compare intensities formula calculate power level noise levels volume logarithm dependence three four fold loudness sound - by what factor does level decrease
His question revolved around how much SPL is enough? If you're going to start arguing theory again then you should also include the fact that the vehicle is a bass machine so to speak. I have measured C-weighted response in the mid 130's with a 10" sub sitting in the spare tire well.

So if doubling power doesn't exactly produce +3dB of output I'm certain cabin gain more than makes up for it.


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Old 08-15-2017   #32
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

At this point, these rabbit trails aren't adding to the conversation and anybody "researching" should have enough information to make a choice. Good luck and take care


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Old 08-15-2017   #33
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
I am aware that when working in LOG space we add the number.
So my understanding is that...:
0dBW = 1W
3dBW = 2W
10dBW - 10W
20dBW = 100W
26dBW = 400W

Question1: Is the conversion of watts to dBW consistent with your understanding?

Question2: Does 1W give 83dB of SPL?

Question3: what does 2W yield?
(I am pretty confident that it is closer to 86dB of SPL than 166dB of SPL)
Q1: dBW is a unit for the measurement of the strength of a signal, not SPL

Q2: The driver itself determines the amount of SPL (it's sensitivity) it can produce at 1 watt at 1 meter. (the use of 83dB/1w-1m was simply an example)

Q3: This is where you ran off the tracks before by equating 300W to 600W as 3db of SPL. What you have compared is a leftover from a prior question concerning a rating into an amplifier's rating at a given load value, which may not change SPL at all. You can refer to the information I have already left for that explanation.

Last edited by DeltaB; 08-15-2017 at 07:04 AM..
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Old 08-15-2017   #34
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
The context was that I can get the same brand of subwoofer as either
1) 2-Ohms
2) 4-Ohms

The amp is rated at:
1) 500W (2-Ohms)
2) 300W (4-Ohms)

So I am tryng to understand whether the extra watts from a 2-Ohm is:
A) needed?
B) worthwhile?
C) lower SQ than the 4-Ohm?
My opinion is that you can make that choice based on personal circumstance, finances, already available hardware, or other factors. The difference in SQ and output won't be meaningful. I post this everywhere... But I'll do it again... The car adds more variation to response than anything else. It simply isn't worth arguing over .01% of theoretical performance.

Damping?! Are you kidding me?!4240691825_532e765933.jpg4241476364_06058b2ace.jpg


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Old 08-15-2017   #35
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
Q1: dBW is a unit for the measurement of the strength of a signal, not SPL

Q2: The driver itself determines the amount of SPL (it's sensitivity) it can produce at 1 watt at 1 meter. (the use of 83dB/1w-1m was simply an example)

Q3: This is where you ran off the tracks before by equating 300W to 600W as 3db of SPL. You can refer to the information I have already left for that explanation.
We seem to have a communication problem.

Question1 dealt with conversion of watts to dBW

In Question2 I used your SPL value of 83 dB/watt.
I assume that watts*(dB/Watts) => dB (At least the units are consistent)

Question 3 follow question2, You have not provided any illumination other than that a factor of 2 does not multiply the SPL by 2. And I agree when working in dB one adds the numbers.

I tried to make this easy for you to provide a straight forward answer in an obtuse fashion. However it seems like your understanding is tightly held. If you do not wish to answer the question then that is you prerogative. Since it seems like you were providing some sage considerations for DIY, I held out the olive branch.
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Old 08-15-2017   #36
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
My opinion is that you can make that choice based on personal circumstance, finances, already available hardware, or other factors. The difference in SQ and output won't be meaningful. I post this everywhere... But I'll do it again... The car adds more variation to response than anything else. It simply isn't worth arguing over .01% of theoretical performance.

Damping?! Are you kidding me?!Attachment 187722Attachment 187730
I got it clearly - Thanks.

So the question I have now is where does one start?

I figured I would get stuck into sound proofing and treatment once I had speakers and amps in my warm paws.
(Another box with what is likely an amp just today)

Then some adjustment of amp gains and measurements to get some measured sound that is reminiscent of the input signal. Whether or not I apply an EQ to it I still need the speakers, amps and wiring in place and generally working.

I have about 1/2 to 2/3 of a system, so I getting an appropriate subwoofer and amp for the levels seems worthwhile.

Should I just assume that 300W is a decent amount of subwoofer, if the vehicle is not being designed to be obviously going duuff-duuff with stupid high bass levels? and then just call it a day?

Basically I kind of want to avoid an endless merry-go-round of upgrades...
That would probably cost me more in the long term.
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Old 08-15-2017   #37
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Again, a quick search within this forum will turn up all that is needed to the importance of damping factor as well as other aspects. A lot has been covered over the years here, but most fail or refuse to read it.

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Old 08-15-2017   #38
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
We seem to have a communication problem.

Question1 dealt with conversion of watts to dBW

In Question2 I used your SPL value of 83 dB/watt.
I assume that watts*(dB/Watts) => dB (At least the units are consistent)

Question 3 follow question2, You have not provided any illumination other than that a factor of 2 does not multiply the SPL by 2. And I agree when working in dB one adds the numbers.

I tried to make this easy for you to provide a straight forward answer in an obtuse fashion. However it seems like your understanding is tightly held. If you do not wish to answer the question then that is you prerogative. Since it seems like you were providing some sage considerations for DIY, I held out the olive branch.
You're confusing two domains. Electrical (power) ratio to express power or amplitude ratios, to acoustic pressure levels or the effective pressure of a sound relative to a reference value. Both are expressed in a log scale of dB, but they are not the same. There is no magic here. Educate yourself rather than offering off-hand insults to me for your poor understanding. Start with the site I left you.
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Old 08-15-2017   #39
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
There is no magic here. Educate yourself rather than offering off-hand insults to me for your poor understanding. Start with the site I left you.
It is not an of-handed insult when I mentioned that we are having a failure to communicate. From my perspective we clearly are, and I am not sure how much clearer I can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
You're confusing two domains. Electrical (power) ratio to express power or amplitude ratios, to acoustic pressure levels or the effective pressure of a sound relative to a reference value. Both are expressed in a log scale of dB, but they are not the same.
But I'll try again...
I believe I am fairly well educated in the basics.
So my understanding of an amplifier is that it supply voltage (or power) to the speaker.
I have not seen units for SPL on an amp, it is always watts, and measurements are usually performed in the voltage domain with a know ressitive-load (however one could measure current and voltage)

The speaker is a transducer that converts electric energy into acoustic (mechanical) energy.

I believe that I have a decent enough understanding of these two domains:
- The speaker will not produce any sound without an amplifier
- The amplifier will not produce any sound without the speaker.
- The combination of amplifier and speaker together result in acoustic energy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
... Both are expressed in a log scale of dB, but they are not the same.
So we have a spec like 83 dB/Watt.
We use 1W (0dBW)
We get SPL = 83dB/W * 1W/1dBW = 83dB SLP referenced at 0dBW
Then for any #-dBW we have
SPL = 83 dB + #-dBW
So 2 watts is 86 dB (SPL)

I am hearing that you are saying that the math is incorrect.
(It should be 10LOG10 or 20LOG10)
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Old 08-15-2017   #40
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

My bad... My response was more directed at the reader than it was you

I think the problem most run into is matching sub output with their mids. If they aren't leveled properly I noticed most people presume they need more subwoofers, power, etc.

Again... Not squarely directed at you. I think measurements will shine the light on system deficiencies. Once identified, you tackle from there.... Even post! And people will gladly try to help.

As far as the op... Don't mistake activity for accomplishment

Anyways, these topics don't need to be rehashed. Lates!


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Old 08-15-2017   #41
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
Damping?! Are you kidding me?!
This is a non sequitur as it relates to the issue of DF.
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Old 08-15-2017   #42
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
It is not an of-handed insult when I mentioned that we are having a failure to communicate. From my perspective we clearly are, and I am not sure how much clearer I can be.

But I'll try again...
I believe I am fairly well educated in the basics.
So my understanding of an amplifier is that it supply voltage (or power) to the speaker.
I have not seen units for SPL on an amp, it is always watts, and measurements are usually performed in the voltage domain with a know ressitive-load (however one could measure current and voltage)
You won't ever see SPL from an amp rating. SPL is dependent on a speaker's efficiency, your distance from it, and the amount of power you place into it.

Quote:
The speaker is a transducer that converts electric energy into acoustic (mechanical) energy.

I believe that I have a decent enough understanding of these two domains:
- The speaker will not produce any sound without an amplifier
- The amplifier will not produce any sound without the speaker.
- The combination of amplifier and speaker together result in acoustic energy.
But that understanding doesn't by reason of knowing it, make dBW a measurement of SPL or vice-versa.

Quote:
So we have a spec like 83 dB/Watt.
We use 1W (0dBW)
We get SPL = 83dB/W * 1W/1dBW = 83dB SLP referenced at 0dBW
Then for any #-dBW we have
SPL = 83 dB + #-dBW
So 2 watts is 86 dB (SPL)

I am hearing that you are saying that the math is incorrect.
(It should be 10LOG10 or 20LOG10)
If you are looking at a theoretical limit, you cannot exclude distance. Same 83dB/1w-1m moved to 10m will experience a drop of 20dB of SPL.
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Old 08-15-2017   #43
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
A loudspeaker's flyback current is not only dissipated through the amplifier output circuit, but also through the internal resistance of the loudspeaker itself. Therefore the choice of different loudspeakers will lead to different damping factors when coupled with the same amplifier. (this is why selection of driver/cabinet/amp selection is important in SQ)

The driver's motor itself is an inductor. And it resides in a magnetic field, which also makes it a generator.

Mechanical Q (driver loading) is accomplished by the cabinet. Damping factor will not help you much in deficiencies of a poorly matched driver/cabinet.
Agreed. Let's move one to the point I was trying to make: worrying about how amp damping effects acoustic damping is like worrying about how hitting a mosquito on the drag strip increases your 1/4 mile time. Reducing ringing is much, much better addressed through motor design (like shorting paths), enclosure optimization, and acoustic treatment within the car.

[...]

Oh Boy. I was just looking up an article to cite on the audibility of an amp's damping factor and it looks like everything the OP is posting is copy pasted from a few sites.

EAW: Eastern Acoustic Works | Amplifier damping factor: More is better! (….or is it?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

Most of what the OP has said is directly copied from those two sites. No wonder he can't directly answer the questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post
Beyond the technical aspects, there are things with which only the individual can find value, regardless of outcome. There are some things to which the process has more value than the end result .
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Old 08-15-2017   #44
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

Well, none of the links and associated writings are being held as false. I think all agree in general to what they say. What's in dispute again and again is to what magnitude are these issues in a car? To quote a site basing it's principles in pro audio where wire length certainly affects damping factor, yet on a car audio site where such lengths are not being used, that pretty much belittles the argument to almost worthless. No different than using an example of a subwoofer being disconnected by being in a different room, but fails to research or include how transparent rear seats are with a trunk installed sub.

Surely a trip to this section (and a few others) will save some time:

Car Audio Truth, Myths & Industry Dogma - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 08-15-2017   #45
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

An excerpt from elsewhere within the site (as I've state again, where plenty relative info is located):

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/605531-post11.html

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Old 08-15-2017   #46
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

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Originally Posted by SPLEclipse View Post
Agreed. Let's move one to the point I was trying to make: worrying about how amp damping effects acoustic damping is like worrying about how hitting a mosquito on the drag strip increases your 1/4 mile time. Reducing ringing is much, much better addressed through motor design (like shorting paths), enclosure optimization, and acoustic treatment within the car.

[...]

Oh Boy. I was just looking up an article to cite on the audibility of an amp's damping factor and it looks like everything the OP is posting is copy pasted from a few sites.

EAW: Eastern Acoustic Works | Amplifier damping factor: More is better! (….or is it?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

Most of what the OP has said is directly copied from those two sites. No wonder he can't directly answer the questions.
I cited the sources, and I said it early on, "I will say this though, I'm keenly aware there are lots of various opinions when it comes to audio. It's kind of like the quote from Crown Audio Engineering that I quoted above, who is one of the most respected professional audio companies out there, and certainly know loudspeaker, and it's interaction with various designs. And invariably someone who will come up and have a differing opinion. That's okay with me.
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Old 08-15-2017   #47
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

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Originally Posted by Bayboy View Post
Well, none of the links and associated writings are being held as false. I think all agree in general to what they say. What's in dispute again and again is to what magnitude are these issues in a car? To quote a site basing it's principles in pro audio where wire length certainly affects damping factor, yet on a car audio site where such lengths are not being used, that pretty much belittles the argument to almost worthless. No different than using an example of a subwoofer being disconnected by being in a different room, but fails to research or include how transparent rear seats are with a trunk installed sub.

Surely a trip to this section (and a few others) will save some time:

Car Audio Truth, Myths & Industry Dogma - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum
You're more than welcome to your own opinion, however that is your own opinion. And there is no shortage of those here. Hope you have a great day.
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Old 08-15-2017   #48
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

And this is where another problem comes in. So now the straddling of the fence in saying all that you present is relevant facts, and anything outside of that is mere opinion, then you touch it with a bit of passive aggressiveness? Quite rude. Up to this point there has been no useful debate or even friendly talk. You simply only care to dictate. Hope you have a great day as well. I'm done here.

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Old 08-15-2017   #49
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

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Originally Posted by DeltaB View Post
You won't ever see SPL from an amp rating. SPL is dependent on a speaker's efficiency, your distance from it, and the amount of power you place into it.



But that understanding doesn't by reason of knowing it, make dBW a measurement of SPL or vice-versa.k



If you are looking at a theoretical limit, you cannot exclude distance. Same 83dB/1w-1m moved to 10m will experience a drop of 20dB of SPL.

Your echoing back that an amp is not rated in SPL is consistent with my claim.

I have never seen a vehicle with a 20m sound stage other than possibly an airplane.

I suppose I am a bit slow, as I am just getting to the point where I am thinking this is a trolling session.

Showing up like Moses with the tablets, and then when reasonable questions that were germane to your DIY subwoofer discussion are asked, getting a response along the lines of "the mysteries of the universe are beyond comprehension" seems to be somewhat evasive.

You either understand this stuff or you do not.

As we are at a communication impasse, it is time that I move on and not further detract from your message.
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Old 08-15-2017   #50
 
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Default Re: Some sub considerations for the DIY

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Originally Posted by Bayboy View Post
And this is where another problem comes in. So now the straddling of the fence in saying all that you present is relevant facts, and anything outside of that is mere opinion, then you touch it with a bit of passive aggressiveness? Quite rude. Up to this point there has been no useful debate or even friendly talk. You simply only care to dictate. Hope you have a great day as well. I'm done here.

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Get a mic, place it on a stand, hit your sub with 40Hz for 1s at 1w. Record the ring. This is easily tested. I'm not interested in the contention folks. You have a great day.
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