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Old 08-12-2013   #276
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

KnuKoncepts Kolossus

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 100mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.96 lbs per square foot

Notes - Constraining layer doesn't measure to spec. Everything else is relatively close. Easy to remove, and clean to remove.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall

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Old 08-12-2013   #277
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

28.75% vs 95% coverage using KnuKonceptz Kolossus

Overlay of Bare Metal vs 28.75% Coverage Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs 95% Coverage Damped Metal Frequency Response


28.75% Damped Metal Waterfall


95% Damped Metal Waterfall

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Old 08-12-2013   #278
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Default

And people say there's diminishing returns past 25%. That's a very significant drop under 100Hz.

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Old 08-12-2013   #279
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
And people say there's diminishing returns past 25%. That's a very significant drop under 100Hz.
Exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if the difference will be as great for the best of this lot tested however. If I recall, Don from SDS, stated that the CLD has to be top notch to be able to use 25% coverage. Should be interesting to see results like that on all of the tested samples. Would it be as great with say STP Bomb?

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Old 08-12-2013   #280
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Ill expand on this when I get home. Theres a lot of factors that can play in here.

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Old 08-12-2013   #281
 
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

mods - why isn't this a sticky?

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Old 08-12-2013   #282
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by astrochex View Post
mods - why isn't this a sticky?
Not enough butyl?

Seriously... seems very few threads get "stickied" on DIYMA. And I would say, depending on how a certain deadener fairs in the final results would carry even more weight as to whether or not the thread is sticky worthy.
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Old 08-12-2013   #283
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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And people say there's diminishing returns past 25%. That's a very significant drop under 100Hz.
I'll stick to my guns when I say that 100% coverage is still a good idea. IMO, making the sheet metal "thicker" using a deadener has significant impact on outside noise and panel stiffness. I am using about 50% coverage with just Stinger Pro in my truck and have not noticed the tremendous difference as when I have done 100% coverage in the same model truck in the past.
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Old 08-12-2013   #284
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Because this is not the final results thread. It will be put in the "list of useful threads" which is stuck.
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Old 08-12-2013   #285
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Interesting results in the 28.75% vs 95% coverage test. Glad to see the results follow instinct with regard to low frequency noise and vibrations. Anyone willing to hypothesize why more coverage seemed to result in poorer performance in the 100-200hz range?
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Old 08-12-2013   #286
 
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by schmiddr2 View Post
Because this is not the final results thread. It will be put in the "list of useful threads" which is stuck.
okey, dokey. thanks.

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Old 08-12-2013   #287
 
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Stumbled over this while researching sound deadening in general.
I'm not going to mention my so-called car stereo in here...
Had to sign up to express my appreciation and admiration for this project. Massive!

Exited to see how this pans out, and very curious about the 25% vs 100%.
Noticed that although the initial graph (on KnuKonceptz Kolossus) is quite different, drop off and the end of the waterfalls (after300ms) seems pretty equal(?) I guess one would prefer that the start, fall off and the "end" to be as low as possible, but is one part more important than the other?
(and pardon if this is a stupid question, not really very familiar with any of this)

And I'm only asking as you seem to have had some expenses in this project, Is there any way one could slip you a nickel or a dime, paypal or something, not fair that you are using time and your own money and we only harvesting the goods here
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Old 08-12-2013   #288
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

My understanding is that the key to the waterfall graphs is that you want to see the steepest drop-off or "decay" as possible. Many of these waterfall graphs might end up looking quite similar when you only look at the final measurement (300 ms). What is key is what is happening between 0 ms and 300 ms. The quicker the waterfall drops, the better.

I think Chris is doing a great job in presenting this information as he gets it. And the provision of both the frequency response graph and the waterfall graph really help to tell a more complete story. I'm sure when he posts the "results thread" he'll provide a bit of a primer on how to both read and compare the graphs. I'm not sure if he'll post a "ranking" or not based on his observations of the results. That might not be a can of worms he is willing to open. ;-)
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Old 08-12-2013   #289
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudgeface View Post
Interesting results in the 28.75% vs 95% coverage test. Glad to see the results follow instinct with regard to low frequency noise and vibrations. Anyone willing to hypothesize why more coverage seemed to result in poorer performance in the 100-200hz range?
I don't see much of a change in the speed of the decay in the waterfall plots between the 25% and 95%. I imagine the added material is increasing mass of the panel, therefore lowering it's FS...?

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Old 08-12-2013   #290
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Fs shift as well as an overall dB reduction seem to be primary results of the added material. Something to keep in mind on the waterfall plots is, depending on mic sensitivity, I would hazard a guess that anything under ~30 dB is negligible. I know in high performance building design, anything below 35 dB in a "silent" empty room with A/C running is considered pretty good. I would also suspect that since Chris lives in the same town as myself where temps have been in the high 90s to low 100s, he has had his A/C on during the tests.
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Old 08-12-2013   #291
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Yep, definitely rockin the ac. Plus its needed to keep temps stable across the tests. I have a lot to write about the coverage tests, I have an hour left of work before ill be at a real computer.


Oh, and I will be opening that can of worms, with the catch that different conditions may warrent different results.

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Old 08-12-2013   #292
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Oh, and I will be opening that can of worms, with the catch that different conditions may warrent different results.
And that is they key for any of us to tell any and all nay-sayers to "shut up." This being a specific test under specific conditions... YMMV.
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Old 08-12-2013   #293
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

The decay plot is definitely better with the 95% coverage on the main resonant frequency. It decays faster, and almost completely flattens out. It is also a significant reduction in the immediate response. However, there needs to be more testing before I can say this is the normal results. Unfortunately, Kolossus is the only damper I have enough of to perform this test right now. I'd bet on different results with different products.


Its also been suggested that adding too much product, can lower the resonant frequency and cause other problems, like sympathetic resonance from the exhaust. I believe this is the main reason that 25% has been promoted, because if you go past that, and run into a problem, you have to remove product to fix the problem. So I'd advise a couple of things. If you want to do 100% coverage, look for the damper that decays the fastest. Also look for one that doesn't seem to lower the resonant frequency.

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Old 08-12-2013   #294
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Looks like my time and effort with my peel n seal wasn't completely for not as others have told me. Definitely not the best, but also not the worst, and I'd say great for the price. As for you notes on the adhesive, I would definitely agree, much harder to take off than FatMat, although it has held up in the Arizona summer and Tennessee summer and winter, so no complaints there.

Although I am in the market for some more, and this thread will help immensely. Again, you are an absolute beast for getting all the testing done, with posting results, and handling a personal life at the same time, really great job man, much appreciated!

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Old 08-12-2013   #295
 
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
The decay plot is definitely better with the 95% coverage on the main resonant frequency. It decays faster, and almost completely flattens out. It is also a significant reduction in the immediate response. However, there needs to be more testing before I can say this is the normal results. Unfortunately, Kolossus is the only damper I have enough of to perform this test right now. I'd bet on different results with different products.


Its also been suggested that adding too much product, can lower the resonant frequency and cause other problems, like sympathetic resonance from the exhaust. I believe this is the main reason that 25% has been promoted, because if you go past that, and run into a problem, you have to remove product to fix the problem. So I'd advise a couple of things. If you want to do 100% coverage, look for the damper that decays the fastest. Also look for one that doesn't seem to lower the resonant frequency.
It's much less a question of added material lowering the resonant frequency through increased mass. It's much more that by connecting adjacent panels you risk creating a new structure with its own problematic resonant frequency. The least expensive vehicle will have had attention paid to panel resonance. It won't necessarily be great but it also won't be catastrophic either. We have the ability to make it catastrophic.

I recommend targeting 25% because it is most likely to get the job done and I don't believe additional material is audible in a properly treated moving car. Probably not even in a properly treated parked car.

You absolutely can not draw conclusions about increased coverage on a fully terminated panel from testing a fully open panel. The edges of the terminated panel do not move!. Every statement in this thread citing these test results as supportive of any coverage percentage in a vehicle are baseless. It doesn't mean a case can't be made. It just isn't being made here. Some panels may ideally require closer to 50% but target 25% and you will get a good result.

Then you can move on to the 90% of the work you still have to do to have a quiet and acoustically neutral vehicle.
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Old 08-12-2013   #296
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

I meant to email you earlier, but hadn't gotten to it.


I need to point out that these tests are all being done on a fully terminated panel. There are pictures earlier in the thread. The metal piece is 12"x12". The exposed part is 10"x10". It is clamped between two 3/4" sheets of baltic birch with 8 bolts, all going through the metal sheet. I would definitely not have said what I said had the tests been on an open panel.

I'm curious what you mean by creating new structures. Are you talking about true 100% coverage? As in covering two panels that are terminated together with a single piece of CLD?

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Old 08-12-2013   #297
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Here is the test rig. There are speakers as the exciters, for consistency. REW creates the sweeps, sent from the laptop to the amp. The back of the speakers are covered completely, to avoid sound from the rear from interfering as much with the measurements. Microphone is the Omnimic usb mic. Mount for the mic is epoxied in place, and the wood is marked to line up with the bolts.




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Old 08-12-2013   #298
 
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Sorry - definitely missed that. I saw your reference to the freely suspended panel and assumed that was what you were doing since you extrapolated so much from it.

Having seen what you're really doing I have to question whether it's possible to learn anything from the results. I did something very similar when I was testing these products but never published the results since I knew they were unreliable -despite having controlled many more variables than you have.

There's a reason there are standards for this type of thing. Even then, Oberst bar testing would give you results better suited to specific applications, not general use.

It's irresponsible to ask people to alter their behavior based on something as imprecise as what you are doing. I think this is a case of pretty pictures concealing a very poor methodology.

Sorry to see this.
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Old 08-12-2013   #299
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

I only mentioned a freely suspended panels with the catch that it was theoretical, based on tests by others, and that it would have to be tested with a panel that was terminated on the ends. I was very clear about that.

I would be very curious as to what your test methods were, and what variables you controlled better than I am. As you suggested, there are standards, but what are they? You already mentioned that Oberst Beam testing isn't really applicable for general use. What other testing standards are there? I found nothing. Actually, a few pages back, I was linked to a paper by an aircraft company that used a method similar to mine. Of course, with a bigger budget, there were tests at different temps, they used a pneumatic hammer, and they had the edges suspended freely.


I would seriously counter that its far more irresponsible to ask people to change their behavior based on observations of measurements that have never been shown to anyone. Looking at the results in REW, my measurements of the metal have been far more consistent than most raw speaker measurements, with the farthest deviation being a 5hz shift in frequency, and a 2db shift in resonant frequency amplitude.

As it stands now, we have nothing concrete to show for what anyone claims is the best method or product. I've mentioned multiple times in this thread, that this testing is not perfect, and what its shortcomings are. It was still the general opinion that the results gleamed from this testing was better than nothing.

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Old 08-12-2013   #300
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Continue on Chris... The majority of us understand and appreciate what your doing! We know it's not perfect, but it provides very useful information

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