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Old 04-11-2013   #26
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
I haven't been able to get a hold of Don for a while so I went with STP.
Ya, it took him a bit to get back to me. I emailed him on a Thursday, hadn't heard back by Monday, re-emailed him and he got back to me the same day. He said he is super busy.

All things considered it took about a week and a half between my initial email and him sending me my order. I did place a large order and had a ton of questions though.

-Trevor
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Old 04-11-2013   #27
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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I can't believe NO ONE picked up on this...
I lol'd, just didn't post it lol.

GLN305, I got the Roadkill in today, looks good, thanks for helping out.



So far, I have a sheet each of Alphadamp, SDS, Lightning Audio, and two 6x6" sheets of Roadkill Pro. I'll go by the local audio shop that swears by dynamat tomorrow, and see if they can hook me up, if not i'll just pick up the smallest amount they'll sell me. Need to get some peel n seal too.

With my motocross bike going up for sell today, I'm going to try to pick up an omnimic setup before I start testing, so I can make sure that each test is even more consistent.

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Old 04-12-2013   #28
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Glad it got there, I'll see what else I can come up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
I lol'd, just didn't post it lol.

GLN305, I got the Roadkill in today, looks good, thanks for helping out.



So far, I have a sheet each of Alphadamp, SDS, Lightning Audio, and two 6x6" sheets of Roadkill Pro. I'll go by the local audio shop that swears by dynamat tomorrow, and see if they can hook me up, if not i'll just pick up the smallest amount they'll sell me. Need to get some peel n seal too.

With my motocross bike going up for sell today, I'm going to try to pick up an omnimic setup before I start testing, so I can make sure that each test is even more consistent.
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Old 04-12-2013   #29
 
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

lol, I have not been able to get a hold of Don for months
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Old 04-12-2013   #30
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

This is an interesting experiment and I put some effort into one very similar, though smaller scale. I've always wanted to do something more inclusive and a little more serious though. I would really enjoy collaborating on this experiment.

This report from E-A-R Specialty Composites is one of the most accessible resources I found on the subject. It is written in very simple terms and is easy to read, but has some great details about how CLD works and what is important when considering them.

This report from Roush Industries is more technical but illustrates a simple method for determining the damping factor of a system graphically without using expensive software or hardware (you already have an accelerometer, just plug it into a spectrum analyzer like TrueRTA or REW).

You mention using a 'scope for measurements, but I believe the best method is a spectrum analyzer and calculating the damping factor as discussed in the article above. I have cleaned it up a bit and summarized the method in my experiment and it can be found here in the beginning of my build thread.

You mention using 22ga sheet metal. I'm not sure it would be the best test substrate. Most sheet metal in a car is much thicker, no? I realize that thicker material is substantially more expensive, but it is a very important factor. The effectiveness of a CLD is significantly related to the thickness of the substrate vs the thickness of the stiff backing (aluminum in most cases).

-J

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Old 04-12-2013   #31
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by Jazzi View Post
You mention using 22ga sheet metal. I'm not sure it would be the best test substrate. Most sheet metal in a car is much thicker, no? I realize that thicker material is substantially more expensive, but it is a very important factor. The effectiveness of a CLD is significantly related to the thickness of the substrate vs the thickness of the stiff backing (aluminum in most cases).

-J
Most floors and rockers average between 16ga and 18ga but I think 20ga - 22ga is about average for door thickness. I know 22ga is what most body shops use for welding panel repairs on the newer cars. It will differ from car to car or truck but I would think it should be fine for this test.

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Old 04-12-2013   #32
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Ya, it took him a bit to get back to me. I emailed him on a Thursday, hadn't heard back by Monday, re-emailed him and he got back to me the same day. He said he is super busy.

All things considered it took about a week and a half between my initial email and him sending me my order. I did place a large order and had a ton of questions though.
It's been a couple of months and multiple emails and nothing. I even tried PMing him here and nada.

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Old 04-12-2013   #33
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
So far, I have a sheet each of Alphadamp, SDS, Lightning Audio, and two 6x6" sheets of Roadkill Pro. I'll go by the local audio shop that swears by dynamat tomorrow, and see if they can hook me up, if not i'll just pick up the smallest amount they'll sell me. Need to get some peel n seal too.
I can send you a 12x12 tile of Dynamat Xtreme with the GT stuff if that helps?
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Old 04-12-2013   #34
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Default

I'm sending the sample box of STP today.
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Old 04-12-2013   #35
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzi View Post
This is an interesting experiment and I put some effort into one very similar, though smaller scale. I've always wanted to do something more inclusive and a little more serious though. I would really enjoy collaborating on this experiment.

This report from E-A-R Specialty Composites is one of the most accessible resources I found on the subject. It is written in very simple terms and is easy to read, but has some great details about how CLD works and what is important when considering them.

This report from Roush Industries is more technical but illustrates a simple method for determining the damping factor of a system graphically without using expensive software or hardware (you already have an accelerometer, just plug it into a spectrum analyzer like TrueRTA or REW).

You mention using a 'scope for measurements, but I believe the best method is a spectrum analyzer and calculating the damping factor as discussed in the article above. I have cleaned it up a bit and summarized the method in my experiment and it can be found here in the beginning of my build thread.

You mention using 22ga sheet metal. I'm not sure it would be the best test substrate. Most sheet metal in a car is much thicker, no? I realize that thicker material is substantially more expensive, but it is a very important factor. The effectiveness of a CLD is significantly related to the thickness of the substrate vs the thickness of the stiff backing (aluminum in most cases).

-J
Jazzi, I'll check those links when I get home from work. I definitely don't plan to use a scope for the actual measurements, just to verify functioning of the accelerometer. For everything else, a spectrum analyzer will be used. This is going to be a huge undertaking, so I'd welcome any help I can get. So far, I think I'll have at least 15 different CLD brands/lines. My main concern is making sure to get test results at 1/48 octave resolution. Reason being, what happens if Brand A, lowers resonance from 50hz to 40hz, and reduces amplitude by 6db. Then Brand B, lowers resonance from 50hz to 45hz, and reduces amplitude by 3db. Brand B could show up as better than Brand A if your only getting info for every third of an octave.


I chose 22 gauge mostly due to cost, and relative thickness to car doors, as that's usually the first spot treated, and in many cases the only spot. But also, since my goal was more to see which deadener works the best, I would think that the deadener that works the best on 22 gauge would still work the best on 16 gauge as well when simply talking about effectiveness relative to the other brands (even though the absolute numbers would be different). I do have a couple of CLD constraining layer tests I'd like to run as well, which I'll expand on once I figure out the best way to test them.



Tracie, that would be great if you have some you don't need. I'll email you today when I'm home from work, around 1pst.


Thanks South East Customz, I'll let you know when it gets here.

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Old 04-12-2013   #36
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Tracie, that would be great if you have some you don't need. I'll email you today when I'm home from work, around 1pst.
Already en route to you.

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Old 04-12-2013   #37
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Already en route to you.

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Awesome! Thank you.
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Old 04-15-2013   #38
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Chris,

Good to see you taking on this potentially monumental task. You know I am local, so if you ever need a "lab assistant" just give me a call. I'd be happy to come help you out with any of the fabrication or testing. I can bring along what photo equipment I have to try and help document, if need be. Which shop locally were you going to attempt to score some deadener from (you can just name a street/area if you don't want to name names)?

On a personal note, I would love to see the Knu Konceptz Kno Knoise and/or Kno Knoise Kolossus tested. I have tried a couple of times to get a hold of Don at SDS and never gotten a response. I plan to purchase from Knu myself, but haven't placed the order yet. If I can order soon, I'll see what I can do about slipping in an extra sheet to the order to pass along.
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Old 04-15-2013   #39
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Thanks Dustin. I haven't stopped by any shops yet, but I figured I would see what Zam's was using. I was going to try to get some dynamat from California Car Stereo, but Tracie from GTMat sent me a square, although I'd really love to find some Dynaplate. I'm not spending $175 on it though, and that seems to be the cheapest it goes for, since they only sell larger quantities. If you have any extra Knu stuff, that would be great. If not, we'll see where the budget falls.

Photo help would be great, my camera works, but its still a point n shoot, although it takes 1080 video. I think it does video better than pics.

Tracie, I got your package today, thanks again for helping out.

So, what I have so far is,

2 - Stinger Roadkill Expert Tiles
1 - SDS CLD Tile
1 - Alpha Damp Tile
1 - Lightning Audio Dead Skin Tile
1 - Dynamat Xtreme Tile
1 - GTMat Onyx
1 - GTMat Pro 50 Mil
1 - GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil
1 - GTMat Pro 110 Mil



Jazzi, when I get some more time, I'm going to PM you. I was hoping to meet up at Bings grand opening, but just saw you wont be able to make it.

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Old 04-15-2013   #40
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Good start to the list. I think Audio Technix is a vendor, maybe they will send you a tile of 60 and 80 mil. If you want I can email them and ask.

That GTMat Pro could be confusing for people buying it. Usually 2 different spec products are not called the same thing. ---> Just looked on their site and the 100 mil doesn't say Pro. http://www.gtmat.com/gt_mat_sound_de..._products.html
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Old 04-15-2013   #41
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

I'm going off the sticky notes in the package I got. I'll go over each product as I test and email each company if I need more info. I know I need to email Lightning Audio, as I can't find any specs on their products.

I just checked out Audio Technix site, I'd definitely like to test their products, especially being that they have different constraining layer thicknesses than everyone else. I'll be emailing Second Skin as well, as they also have their own thicknesses on the constraining layer.

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Old 04-15-2013   #42
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

No Second Skin?? REALLLLYYY?????????

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Old 04-15-2013   #43
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

I'll definitely be testing second skin, as that is what I used last time. Just want to see if they're willing to help out first.

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Old 04-15-2013   #44
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Not that I have pro gear, but I do have a Nikon D7000 and a tripod. I've also got access to a GoPro (last gen) if we need to shoot some Slo-mo, but it won't be 1080. My DSLR and phone both shoot 1080 though.
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Old 04-16-2013   #45
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmiddr2 View Post
Good start to the list. I think Audio Technix is a vendor, maybe they will send you a tile of 60 and 80 mil. If you want I can email them and ask.

That GTMat Pro could be confusing for people buying it. Usually 2 different spec products are not called the same thing. ---> Just looked on their site and the 100 mil doesn't say Pro. GT MAT SOUND CONTROL, LLC Automotive Sound Deadener Dampning Material Dynamat Alternative
Chris - It should be "GTMat 110 Mil"

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Old 04-16-2013   #46
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by schmiddr2 View Post
Good start to the list. I think Audio Technix is a vendor, maybe they will send you a tile of 60 and 80 mil. If you want I can email them and ask.

That GTMat Pro could be confusing for people buying it. Usually 2 different spec products are not called the same thing. ---> Just looked on their site and the 100 mil doesn't say Pro. GT MAT SOUND CONTROL, LLC Automotive Sound Deadener Dampning Material Dynamat Alternative
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
I'm going off the sticky notes in the package I got. I'll go over each product as I test and email each company if I need more info. I know I need to email Lightning Audio, as I can't find any specs on their products.

I just checked out Audio Technix site, I'd definitely like to test their products, especially being that they have different constraining layer thicknesses than everyone else. I'll be emailing Second Skin as well, as they also have their own thicknesses on the constraining layer.
Ack, the guys probably tagged the 110 wrong. GT110 is what we are calling it, for lack of a better name. Also, the 80 mil is GTMat Ultra.

Looking forward to the test results, let me know if you need anything else!
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Old 04-16-2013   #47
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

I have emailed Audio Technix and asked them to look into being part of the test.
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Old 04-16-2013   #48
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

I'll be emailing the owner of Audio Technix later today, but it sounds like he's on board.


Also, there was some concern on a non-audio board about the ability to know what the actual materials are in the deadeners. There was concern that some companies (he specified dynamat) might have asphalt in them without them saying so. So, I plan to email each company I test, and ask for an MSDS for each material. I'm hoping they wont view it as me attempting to reverse engineer their product, but we'll see. I don't expect each company to oblige.


Also, I'll be building a punch to cut the deadeners to size for the testing. I figure its the easiest way to guarantee all pieces are the same size. I have access to a press, so I can use that with the punch to cut them out.

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Old 04-16-2013   #49
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Well done!
You're definitely removing the variables one by one.


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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Thanks. Response here has definitely been better than elsewhere.

"why bother measuring if difference, if you cant hear it"

"if something reduced the noise, why spend a higher amount to reduce it more"

And my favorite

"this testing is going to be hard to quantify if your not going to listen for improvements"

You know. Because subjective testing is great at quantifying things, and objective testing can't quantify things.

Oh well, if I wasn't pissing someone off, I wouldn't be doing a good enough job at this.

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