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Old 05-28-2013  
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Dustin, I'll email them this week as well. I should have the magnets by friday, so I can start really getting things done, that's when the tracking number shows.

I ALMOST had the bike sold this weekend, but right before I was expecting a paypal, he blows his scam cover. But, its going on cycle trader, and possibly ebay, and when it goes, I'll pick up some NVX as well as some second skin, and cascade.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Ok guys. I want to apologize for the delays. There have been some things happening here that are out of my hands, and will continue to for the next week. As of right now, I have everything I need to start testing. The magnets are epoxied to the accelerometer board and are curing as I type this, however, it will be at least tomorrow before I can even try them, and possibly not until next monday. The current list of products is the same as the last one posted for now, and the die is ready to cut them now.

The reason for the delays are family medical. As I posted a page or so back, my mom had been in the ER. She was back in the ER last saturday for an allergic reaction to a new medication. My sister in law was also in the ER sunday night, monday morning, and admitted to the hospital monday night with valley fever. At this point, it looks like she'll be flown to UCLA today as her lungs are filling with fluid and they can't figure out how to stop it locally. I will get this testing done as soon as I can, just bear with me for another week or two. I will probably be able to work a little during the week, but weekends will be out until this is resolved.


As for updates, my dad will be in town tomorrow with another program he wrote to communicate with the scope. If I'm not in town, I'll post from my phone how it worked.

Also, I have a second method I am going to use to attempt to show long term heat/cold cycle durability. For those who don't know, I live in the central valley, where it is often over 100 degrees during the summer. And since I am mostly riding to work right now, my car is sitting directly in the sun, perpendicular to the travel of the sun. So I am going to pull my headliner, and put a small 1"x1" sample of each deadener on the roof of the car, in a small grid, and watch them over the summer and winter. I will take pictures every week, or more often if the results are more dramatic. However, this means I will need to cut of donations and any other samples on June 30th. Since all samples need to go in at the same time to be fair, this is how it has to be done. (I will begin vibration testing before that, next week depending on family circumstances, but no later than the week after that). For anything that is purchased or sent after that, I will still test them in the oven, and all current samples will be tested in the oven as well. I just think that the in car test is the best way to do this.

I will be leaving work early to work on this project (vacation time) and will get pics of everything up.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

We can wait as long as needed while you support your family.
Best wishes to you all.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
Ok guys. I want to apologize for the delays. There have been some things happening here that are out of my hands, and will continue to for the next week. As of right now, I have everything I need to start testing. The magnets are epoxied to the accelerometer board and are curing as I type this, however, it will be at least tomorrow before I can even try them, and possibly not until next monday. The current list of products is the same as the last one posted for now, and the die is ready to cut them now.

The reason for the delays are family medical. As I posted a page or so back, my mom had been in the ER. She was back in the ER last saturday for an allergic reaction to a new medication. My sister in law was also in the ER sunday night, monday morning, and admitted to the hospital monday night with valley fever. At this point, it looks like she'll be flown to UCLA today as her lungs are filling with fluid and they can't figure out how to stop it locally. I will get this testing done as soon as I can, just bear with me for another week or two. I will probably be able to work a little during the week, but weekends will be out until this is resolved.


As for updates, my dad will be in town tomorrow with another program he wrote to communicate with the scope. If I'm not in town, I'll post from my phone how it worked.

Also, I have a second method I am going to use to attempt to show long term heat/cold cycle durability. For those who don't know, I live in the central valley, where it is often over 100 degrees during the summer. And since I am mostly riding to work right now, my car is sitting directly in the sun, perpendicular to the travel of the sun. So I am going to pull my headliner, and put a small 1"x1" sample of each deadener on the roof of the car, in a small grid, and watch them over the summer and winter. I will take pictures every week, or more often if the results are more dramatic. However, this means I will need to cut of donations and any other samples on June 30th. Since all samples need to go in at the same time to be fair, this is how it has to be done. (I will begin vibration testing before that, next week depending on family circumstances, but no later than the week after that). For anything that is purchased or sent after that, I will still test them in the oven, and all current samples will be tested in the oven as well. I just think that the in car test is the best way to do this.

I will be leaving work early to work on this project (vacation time) and will get pics of everything up.
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Thanks for the update Chris. If you need anything for the test, or on the personal side of things, just let me know!
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.
We appreciate the update, but as already stated by Jazzi and others, take as much tame as you need, family should come first.

As with the results, I believe your method for posting results would be the best of both worlds.

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Old 06-07-2013  
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Well, the program was able to connect to and control the scope. So it looks like we will have automated testing. He is going to work the next two weeks on programing it to monitor both the accelerometer and the input signal to the speakers, for both voltage and phase. It will automatically be logged in MS Access, and then I will import it into Excel to get the results ready for publication.

Also, it looks like I will have some time tomorrow at home, so I will get the first test of the entire set up done, and post the results, and pics. Maybe even video.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Chris, let me know what time and I'll try to swing by. Most of my day may actually be open, for once!
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.
Take your time sir, we appreciate the tests and just wanna see it done right and if snags are hit or family comes first, so be it. We all have a pretty good idea about deadener, this will just give us another tool to make better decisions and possibly help the deadener manufacturers out as well to produce better product. Let us know if you need anything else.
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Ill txt you later Dustin, thanks again guys. Looks like theyve gotten things under control, but it looks like shes going to have a 6+ month recovery. May be going home tomorrow, depending on how the fluid level is in the lungs, im over here right now.

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Old 06-08-2013  
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Well, everything was up and running today. rton20s came and took some pictures of the setup, the setup process, etc. As for the results, I need to go over some things before I reveal anything. I used a piece of deadening where I have extra laying around as sort of a calibration run, and need to work that out. I'll probably repeat it later this week, when my dad is here and work out the buts. As soon as I get that worked out, I'll post the raw data, and at that point I'll be ready to go to full scale testing.


I'm going to say this now, so people are ready for it. I believe the test results are going to be VERY close for the VAST majority of products. I think there may be some highs and lows, but I think similar products are going to be hard to tell apart. So close that this may become a game of pure cost, not even cost to performance.

That said, I really hope to be wrong. I'd hate to go through all of this and my suspicions not be proven wrong.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
I'm going to say this now, so people are ready for it. I believe the test results are going to be VERY close for the VAST majority of products. I think there may be some highs and lows, but I think similar products are going to be hard to tell apart. So close that this may become a game of pure cost, not even cost to performance.
Chris, I agree, this is my expected outcome... Still, I appreciate you going through all of this, it is MUCH appreciated!!!

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

x2. We all know that no sound dampening can prevent all panel vibration so the results should look very similar for most. But considering the testing method using the small squares, the advantage of one over another would be exponential when used on the necessary panels with the 25% method. (This might not directly relate to a better SQ environment, because this is a test it is to get actual values on a given sample panel.)

So if you took the average amount (sq. ft.) of deadener used in a type of vehicle using the 25% method, divide by the testing dampener size, then multiplied by the reduced vibration value (difference between baseline and with dampener), you should have a theoretical whole car "gain" expected for brand X.

At least that's how I see it.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

This is really TOOSTUBBORN's thing, so he would probably be better to reply, but I'll throw in my thoughts as well. I was there for the initial SYSTEM test on Saturday. (Not a materials test, not even a base line test.)

I have to say, I agree with his initial observations. I have a feeling that the test results are going to be so similar that the differences in performance might be just about negligible. Unfortunate, for all of the testing efforts, but still valuable information. And I am POSITIVE that we'll have some people crying "foul" (perhaps even "manufacturers"), despite STUBBORN taking extensive efforts to make this a very controlled test.

Schmidder... I'm not so sure it will be as simple as applying a multiplier to the provided results in order to see how the materials would behave in a different (actual car door) environment. There are SO many variables to consider. Substrate material, pane size, panel shape, volume or space, etc., etc., etc... I think the results will have to be taken at face value with no accurate way of translating how it will translate to an in-car environment.

Another thought, and this is strictly my own, is that we might find out that while we reduce vibration at the panel's initial resonant frequency we could very well INCREASE it at another frequency. I guess the key would be to get the resonant frequency of the panel changed to a point where the vibration is either insignificant in terms of affecting sound quality or completely out of the range produced by the driver causing the vibration. Again, just my own thought.

In the end, I think what we will have is test results for a very specific and controlled environment for various dampening products. People will be left to draw their own conclusions. And as mentioned before, I am sure people will be coming out of the wood work to nay say the results. I will say, that having talked with STUBBORN, he has no horse in the race and is strictly interested in finding out how the products compare to each other.
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Ok, sorry to leave this for so long.

I need to clarify my statements a little bit. When I said I think that I think similar products are going to test similarly, I mean that products that have a 4mil thick aluminum layer, and 1.5-2mm thick butyl layer are going to test almost identical. I do however think that a product with a 8-10mil thick layer of aluminum will test differently than the products with 4mil thick aluminum. Then theres the asphalt products and the stuff from STP, which is very different than all of the other products. Of course, this is just my hunch, and could be proven wrong. But I wanted to put it out there.

The resonant frequency of the metal on the first test made it very difficult to measure at a wide range of frequencies. This is bare metal, no deadening. I was actually unable to get anything out of it except at 100hz. That tells me the Q of the resonant frequency is very high, something I will have to investigate more. After I added deadener, I was able to measure at both 80hz and 100hz, telling me that the Q flattened out a little, but it also showed a very direct decrease in vibration. I'll be able to quantify it later once I get the equation from the accelerometer manufacturer, but the peak to peak voltage almost halved from bare metal, to deadened.

Like rton20s said, its not going to be possible to compare these results to in vehicle results with an equation. That's why this is just the beginning. There are plans to go much much farther in depth than the simple testing done here between brands, including real world car tests. That's why its so important to me to be able to automate these tests as much as possible.


I will get some video up later today of everything running, I have to get some things done. But I will get it up tonight.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
Ok, sorry to leave this for so long.

I need to clarify my statements a little bit. When I said I think that I think similar products are going to test similarly, I mean that products that have a 4mil thick aluminum layer, and 1.5-2mm thick butyl layer are going to test almost identical. I do however think that a product with a 8-10mil thick layer of aluminum will test differently than the products with 4mil thick aluminum. Then theres the asphalt products and the stuff from STP, which is very different than all of the other products. Of course, this is just my hunch, and could be proven wrong. But I wanted to put it out there.

The resonant frequency of the metal on the first test made it very difficult to measure at a wide range of frequencies. This is bare metal, no deadening. I was actually unable to get anything out of it except at 100hz. That tells me the Q of the resonant frequency is very high, something I will have to investigate more. After I added deadener, I was able to measure at both 80hz and 100hz, telling me that the Q flattened out a little, but it also showed a very direct decrease in vibration. I'll be able to quantify it later once I get the equation from the accelerometer manufacturer, but the peak to peak voltage almost halved from bare metal, to deadened.

Like rton20s said, its not going to be possible to compare these results to in vehicle results with an equation. That's why this is just the beginning. There are plans to go much much farther in depth than the simple testing done here between brands, including real world car tests. That's why its so important to me to be able to automate these tests as much as possible.


I will get some video up later today of everything running, I have to get some things done. But I will get it up tonight.
Hey Chris, thanks again for doing this! Once you have things going smoothly, I'd like to send you a 1 sqft cut of our next product. I'm interested in getting feedback on it. Can you PM me your address info once more?
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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

PM sent Tracie.

Ok, well I tried a few more things today. I burned a cd with test tones spaced at 5hz intervals from 20-120hz. Same results, it goes from not picking up anything on the scope, to clipping the output from the accelerometer, before falling off again. Same frequency for the peak, right around 100hz. I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with that just yet. I have some ideas. I know the current power supply for the accelerometer is pretty noisy, I'm going to try to Dell power supply 3.3V out since it seems much cleaner than the simple board I'm currently using for the accelerometer. I may all try running it off some batteries, if that's still too noisy. I also used the Omnimic today with the microphone about 5mm away from the metal panel. I hate to say it, but this may be the way it ends up going. If so, I need to build a chamber around the back side of the speakers to isolate the sound from them, so its only picking up noise from the panel.

These are my pics, not rton20s', from a canon cyber shot taken today.








Here is the averaged response from noise from the Omnimic. I need to redo it with less smoothing, but you can see the HUGE peak, 20db on the right side and 30db on the left. I should have tested this yesturday before and after I applied the "not to be named" deadener.



Ugh, video is still "processing". I'll get it up as soon as its done.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Hmmm. Epic fail. Even after watching numerous how to's on embedding videos, I still cant get this to work.

Anyone want to hold my hand through this?


Link is here Test Run of Equipment - YouTube

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Also, anyone know how to eliminate the stupid pops when burning test tones to CD from audacity?

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Export the wav files to disk then burn them with a -1 sec delay between each track. Try CDburnerXP (free).

Tried decoupling the mic from the table? It might pick up vibrations transferred through the table...

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

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Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
Also, anyone know how to eliminate the stupid pops when burning test tones to CD from audacity?
Maybe use the IASCA CD ? It has all of the test tones you will need

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The JL Cleansweep disc would work too.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

Hanatsu, thanks. I usually actually add the delay between tracks when using the home computer, but didn't have a program that could do it on the laptop.

I will try that decoupling the mic from the table. I wanted to try that, but all my materials are in storage. Maybe this weekend I can get out there and re-try it.


Dean, thanks for the PM, and for posting the video.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the IASCA and Cleansweep disks are both 1/3rd octave right? I have the Focal tools disk, which has 1/3rd octave tones, and it wasn't enough resolution. Before adding a piece of deadening, the resonant frequency seemed to be somewhere between 100hz and 125hz.

My dad worked on the program all night and said that it will be able to generate the tones itself, so I'll deal with the disk I have for now.

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Default Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing

It seems like using a sweep would be better than individual tones because time domain is important too. The maximum steady-state amplitude of a resonance is interesting, but without taking time into consideration, you cannot see how quickly the resonance builds or decays (how quickly the motion is transformed into heat, and thus how effective the damping is).

Room EQ Wizard for example generates its own sweep and will calculate just about anything you could ever want. Each sweep is quick and the program and makes comparison of multiple trial runs (or multiple test products) very easy. Among a ton of other stuff, the program will find the frequency, amplitude, and duration of all resonances for you. That's the interesting stuff, isn't it?

Also, your non-treated system having a single dominant resonance is not unexpected.

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