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Old 05-14-2017   #776
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

First, thank you once again John R for taking the time to show us your workflow process for using the software and measuring the vehicle. It was nice to get confirmation that I was doing the right way as I tested it in my temporary setup. It was a pleasure to meet you and to chat about the work you do and our experiences in this hobby over the year. As always, it was a pleasure as well to hang out with John K again too. Good times, good company.

Raimonds- Thank you for confirming that you're there to support us in case of a drive failure or other issue. That is always comforting to know.

I feel like I have a pretty good handle on using the Workshop software now (at least in its most basic functions) and I'm looking forward to experimenting with measuring techniques, building the right target response curves in Coneq peq and evaluating and correcting the basic system setup using the nice visualizations in TDA.

Once I get more time and experience with these, I would certainly be interesting in learning more about TDA EQ and experimenting with it as well.


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Old 05-14-2017   #777
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
First, thank you once again John R for taking the time to show us your workflow process for using the software and measuring the vehicle. It was nice to get confirmation that I was doing the right way as I tested it in my temporary setup. It was a pleasure to meet you and to chat about the work you do and our experiences in this hobby over the year. As always, it was a pleasure as well to hang out with John K again too. Good times, good company.

Raimonds- Thank you for confirming that you're there to support us in case of a drive failure or other issue. That is always comforting to know.

I feel like I have a pretty good handle on using the Workshop software now (at least in its most basic functions) and I'm looking forward to experimenting with measuring techniques, building the right target response curves in Coneq peq and evaluating and correcting the basic system setup using the nice visualizations in TDA.

Once I get more time and experience with these, I would certainly be interesting in learning more about TDA EQ and experimenting with it as well.


Cheers


-Steve
Thanks, it was a pleasure to meet you! And thanks for dinner!

Going over the process with you and John helped me too, mostly because it made me think about what exactly I was doing, and why. It also helps to keep this stuff fresh in my mind. I'll play with the Pete over the week, and the APL will most likely stay in it for the next 11 weeks.

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Old 05-14-2017   #778
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Thanks John R for spending your time with Steve and me.

I definitely have a better understanding for the process and also a series of ideas I want to test out soon.


After driving home and doing some A/B switching on the APL1 between active and bypass, I definitely can hear the effect on the soundstage dimensions when using it. My stage gets wider and more 3 Dimensional. I still prefer the tonality on my Helix tune by itself, but I think once I have found a target curve for the APL that I like it will be better.

Anyway, lot's of stuff to try out now. I'll keep reporting back.

Thanks again!

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Old 05-15-2017   #779
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I am pretty sure that you can get much closer to your desired target curve with the all1 than with Helix. And with more clean sound.

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Old 05-15-2017   #780
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I'm a bit of a stalker in this thread as I try and learn more about the APL. For me there are two distinct parts to tuning, with measurements and finally by ear. So we've set the cross overs, measured and set the delays and eq'd each driver to the built in house curve. But this is a base and no matter how good the base, it's never accurate to the ref sound, it can't be because each install and the acoustics of each car will be different. Close yes, very good sure, but it will still need work and this is where tuning by ear starts.

So lets say the APL has got me to this point, now I want to tune things manually and I'm looking for 1/3 oct eq per driver with a resolution of say +/- 0.2 db and TA per driver in steps of say 0.01. The reason I need this is because, that is how my brain is used to tuning. Hear an issue, is it timing or response, if timing which driver, if response what frequency which side or overall etc etc.

Long story short, I am just wondering what sort of eq and TA would I have on each driver once the unit has done its magic.

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Last edited by sqnut; 05-15-2017 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 05-15-2017   #781
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
I'm a bit of a stalker in this thread as I try and learn more about the APL. For me there are two distinct parts to tuning, with measurements and finally by ear. So we've set the cross overs, measured and set the delays and eq'd each driver to the built in house curve. But this is a base and no matter how good the base, it's never accurate to the ref sound, it can't be because each install and the acoustics of each car will be different. Close yes, very good sure, but it will still need work and this is where tuning by ear starts.

So lets say the APL has got me to this point, now I want to tune things manually and I'm looking for 1/3 oct eq per driver with a resolution of say +/- 0.2 db and TA per driver in steps of say 0.01. The reason I need this is because, that is how my brain is used to tuning. Hear an issue, is it timing or response, if timing which driver, if response what frequency which side or overall etc etc.

Long story short, I am just wondering what sort of eq and TA would I have on each driver once the unit has done its magic.
You can achive accuracy in TA down to 0.001 msec. Max value is not limited as far as I am concerned. But this is per channel. If you buy apl3m unit, you will have 6 channels. XO points could be made by parametric equaliser with almost anlimited settings for F and Q. You could add as many corrections afterwords as you wish. Yes, fine tuning by far is a final art here. But again, do not mix APFR and FR measured just in one point.

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Old 05-15-2017   #782
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

One have to remember, that apl1 is not a dedicated time machine, so it is little bit Tricky to make TA with it. You can not do it on the go and need a PC with a soft called ConneqC1. My suggestion is to use another DSP for this purpose, test with TDA APL, measure the precise value and correct your previous TA.

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Old 05-15-2017   #783
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
I'm a bit of a stalker in this thread as I try and learn more about the APL. For me there are two distinct parts to tuning, with measurements and finally by ear. So we've set the cross overs, measured and set the delays and eq'd each driver to the built in house curve. But this is a base and no matter how good the base, it's never accurate to the ref sound, it can't be because each install and the acoustics of each car will be different. Close yes, very good sure, but it will still need work and this is where tuning by ear starts.

So lets say the APL has got me to this point, now I want to tune things manually and I'm looking for 1/3 oct eq per driver with a resolution of say +/- 0.2 db and TA per driver in steps of say 0.01. The reason I need this is because, that is how my brain is used to tuning. Hear an issue, is it timing or response, if timing which driver, if response what frequency which side or overall etc etc.

Long story short, I am just wondering what sort of eq and TA would I have on each driver once the unit has done its magic.
You still have all the tuning accuracy of your dsp in your signal chain after the apl1 unit. You're free to tune to your hearts content after the apl does its stuff, but personally I don't recommend it......the apl suite of measurement software and apl1 unit do a far better job at matching l/r eq than I ever accomplished using measurements or by ear, it does a remarkable job. You see the apl is not a manual eq, it matches the power response of the left and right sides automatically, the only manual eq adjustments left for you is the tonality curve to your preference. If you are not happy with the automatic l/r eq you could always make independent l/r target curves to suit your ears, but I'm telling you the power response measurements matches l/r past my point of needing any tweaking. However, you can fine tune everything via your dsp after the fact if ya want........

As for the tweaking of the timing after the apl auto eq, if there is errors in level or timing they stick out like a sore thumb after the apl tuning......I simply defeat the apl processing and revisit the errors in my dsp tune, then remeasure with the apl workshop and reapply, until I'm not picking up any errors..........

The apl is a different system than a traditional tuner is used to dealing with, so it does make you rethink some traditional processes......some get kicked to the curb, some are approached in a different method. It is really a unique unit, that is difficult to comprehend without direct experience with the results........

Last edited by claydo; 05-15-2017 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017   #784
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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... +/- 0.2 db and TA per driver in steps of say 0.01.
You're kidding right?

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Old 05-16-2017   #785
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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You're kidding right?
We have to be realistic and remember threshold values for a human ear at different frequencies. While driving, your ears are moving constantly much more than a distance calculated by using a time of 0.01 msec and sound velocity in the air under usual conditions 😅

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Old 05-16-2017   #786
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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You're kidding right?
No I'm not. It depends on how trained the ears are, NOT golden ears. KP mentioned in one of his posts that he does his rough tune at +/- 0.3 db and then fine tunes at +/- 0.1 db. It's like if you run 5 miles a day and I don't, chances are you can run faster and further than I can. Same thing here.

My bit10 is +/- 0.3db and I just like my next processor to be slightly finer in eq resolution.

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Old 05-16-2017   #787
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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We have to be realistic and remember threshold values for a human ear at different frequencies. While driving, your ears are moving constantly much more than a distance calculated by using a time of 0.01 msec and sound velocity in the air under usual conditions 😅

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Tuning on the fly is a terrible addiction (says someone who did it incessantly for a couple of years). If the car is quiet to begin with, then a good engine on tune is very listenable on the road. Otoh if like me, you have 85db of floor noise at 50mph then yeah, we need two tunes. I finally just gave up doing it on the fly and would just listen while driving and think of what all needed to be corrected and do it when I got the chance. Rinse and repeat, it went quicker.

By virtue of its design, the ear is incredible at picking and evaluating differences in (time / amplitude / phase), but horrible at evaluating absolutes. So even the best trained ears eg trained musicians will not be able to reliably tell if a sound is 80 db or 81 db, but will hear a difference of 0.1 db at 500hz or a pitch difference of 5 cents or a timing gap of small fractions of m/s. Like you mentioned this sensitivity varies across the frequency range.

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Old 05-16-2017   #788
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
No I'm not. It depends on how trained the ears are, NOT golden ears. KP mentioned in one of his posts that he does his rough tune at +/- 0.3 db and then fine tunes at +/- 0.1 db. It's like if you run 5 miles a day and I don't, chances are you can run faster and further than I can. Same thing here.

My bit10 is +/- 0.3db and I just like my next processor to be slightly finer in eq resolution.
You're right, this makes sense. I'm sure I'm less trained than you but I did realized I could hear this small differences while tuning TA for example, but it's on few octaves (Harder to decide if it gets better or not though).
I jumped on the +/-0.2db but shouldn't have, especially cutting your quote.
And your response to Alex makes a lot of sense too.

It's just that since I went APl and now Dirac, it changed a lot my method.
I don't know, feels like I always get results that are more coherent and stable now. Little tweaks here and there are no longer needed, for me.


Last edited by Elgrosso; 05-16-2017 at 07:57 AM..
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Old 05-16-2017   #789
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Thanks! Audible, not to me lol, the dog may not like it if he goes for a ride.......my last adjustment is a broad cut centered at 22k, what you see is simply the curve rising back to zero......

Oliverlim, I don't know how to attach the text file here......sorry.
Can I get s copy of your target curve as a text file. Wonna try in my car. Curios about it. It might be little bit colder in mid range compared to MP1, right?

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Old 05-16-2017   #790
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
You're right, this makes sense... but I did realized I could hear this small differences while tuning TA for example, but it's on few octaves (Harder to decide if it gets better or not though).
Very Small TA changes are most audible in the ~100hz to 1.5khz range and slightly less so from 1.5-~3khz, in this range we are picking differences based on both timing and spl difference. Above 3khz you would need a much bigger change to notice a change, because now our ears are primarily hearing differences based on amplitude differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
I jumped on the +/-0.2db but shouldn't have, especially cutting your quote.
And your response to Alex makes a lot of sense too.
No issues, I'm glad the explanation helped.

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Old 05-18-2017   #791
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Hello Friends,

Regarding "tonality" and target curves as subterFUSE pointed.

The aim of 15 year work was to remove "colorations" of loudspeaker`s sound.
But the "tonality" is not a coloration, it is about your target
It is possible to keep your "tonality" - the large scale fr. response behavior of your system -
but remove (correct) narrow bandwidth problems that are creating coloration.

You should catch your "tonality" curve by heavy smoothing of Workshop`s measurement - by use of "1 octave" at least and edit it.
Then you are ready to use it as your target curve.

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Old 05-22-2017   #792
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Narrow bandwith dips are also not to be underestimated, as it is there you are missing some musical information simply by masking it by neighboring frequencies, which are more loud. Of course, peaks are more audible and contribute more evident to a coloration. One of the biggest benefits of the, apl-technology from the musical point of view, is that a corrected FR allows to hear more details, instruments and environment effects, despite we are talking of the air around acoustic instruments, breathing of a singer, touching the strings or something else.

And of course, there is a good question, if one have to keep the preliminary tonality of loudspeakers made by the manufacturer, or to create his own, which might reproduce music more close to the composer's intention and vision. What is a great sound? Is it a sound, that does not focusing on the loudspeaker output, but rather on feeling connected to the music content. You forget about the placement of the loudspeakers, tests and measurements and just digging into the world of music. That is what the whole apl-story about.

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Old 05-22-2017   #793
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

, alextaastrup that pretty much exactly how I feel as well.
You definitely have a strong understanding of this, I hope to learn stuff from you as this continues.

To further that, I would add the narrow band stuff (at least to me)
Really needs to be analyzed carefully and executed with prudence.

I've worked on many parts of narrow and wide band errors between left and right , a lot of which was a wasted effort (but a great learning experience)

I've had phenomenal luck just focusing on narrow band in the diffuse region (500-1k)
Modal areas I've had some luck but usually accompanied by a ill effect. And under 250hz seems everything is minimum phase so just plain eq works well. (Minus a global alignment to everything else)

Above 1k , I seem to not be able to trust the gated vs non gated , and really can't pinpoint much, I've had some luck with as high as 1.6k but much after that it becomes sketchy at best as far as measurements go.

But yeah , I so agree with what your saying, I have done as little as fix one narrow band high Q anomaly and had ambiance come alive and an annoying echo almost from a reflection disappear. Not to mention the center being firmly grounded. All by one simple fix at 630hz.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 05-23-2017   #794
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Hello Friends,


You should catch your "tonality" curve by heavy smoothing of Workshop`s measurement - by use of "1 octave" at least and edit it.
Then you are ready to use it as your target curve.
Could you explain this a little bit more? I been trying to find a way to better get a curve. The con-EQ way is easy to approximate a house curve, but difficult to get the exact type of curve you are looking for.
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Old 05-23-2017   #795
 
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

If I understood this correctly, you might wish to preserve your existing tonality. If so, you measure APFR with the Workshop, smooth it as much as possible (1 octave) to avoid narrow bandwith peaks and dips. Then, by saving the result you will create a curve, which is close to your actual sound, but very smooth. It coud be used as a target/house curve. Applying this curve as a target, you will struggle automatically against measured peaks and dips. New fir-filter will attain the same tonality, if this was your goal. Apload/send it to the apl1 box a d here we are. Enjoy listening.

I will prefer instead for to correct the measured signal to strait line and use as the first step one of the target curves, provided by the vendor. Usually I start with mp1 curve, as it is close to my preferencies. Then you are free to improve the sound further. Many forum members using this unlimited feature. Claydo is one of them. Apl software package comprises a well designed parametric equaliser for this purpose. Now rely only on your own taste ....

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Old 05-23-2017   #796
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Indeed Alex, building curves within c1 is super fun, and not very complicated, so it can become addictive. Throw in the ability to save and easily access 16 of them for listening via the switch, and you can create and load up a bunch for comparison. The only hurdle that took me a minute to figure out, is that in order to modify a curve that you previously built, I found it necessary to save a version of each curve in two formats, one version that apl recognizes, as well as one that c1 recognizes so you can start your tweaking from the same place you left it......once you figure this part out you can tweak and modify your own created curves to your hearts content, getting everything just so........
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I love it too and appreciate the possibility to change EQ presets with easy touch. Little of-topic: due t exactly this reason I
I have selected Hidizs A100 because of eternal button on the left side for switching between presets.

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Old 05-23-2017   #798
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

I bet I asked this already.. Apologize if so.

Do you have to remeasure with mic for each curve change or does it go by already established measurement data?


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Old 05-23-2017   #799
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by Babs View Post
I bet I asked this already.. Apologize if so.

Do you have to remeasure with mic for each curve change or does it go by already established measurement data?


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Nope.....you can overlay your curves over top of your corrections as many times as you want......all from one set of measurements. Another favorite feature of mine, change tonality all you want, and your corrections always stay in place........that's pretty sweet!
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by claydo View Post
Nope.....you can overlay your curves over top of your corrections as many times as you want......all from one set of measurements. Another favorite feature of mine, change tonality all you want, and your corrections always stay in place........that's pretty sweet!
Ok hang on Master Blaster. Whatchu talkin' about Willis?

"Overlay your curves".. This means basically putting in your new curve and telling it, go? In which case it wipes out old and applies the new after the algorithm does it's thing?

"change tonality all you want, and your corrections always stay in place"
.. Huh? You mean your previous corrections are banked somewhere or some kind of base corrections?

Dude I shoulda spent some time with you teaching me the APL tool instead of tuning cars, jawing, and sneaking cocktail shrimpies last weekend. LOL!!

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