Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit - Page 42 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 04-29-2019   #1026
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
I correct with APL only the full range.
The speakers are already time-aligned using REW and loopback measurements, level matched and i am using linear-phase crossovers. I generated them in Rephase with some minor EQ to correct huge dips of nulls and then, on top of that, i measure the aforementioned cube area with APL. I get about 80-100 measurements per side on APL.

By the way, level matching in REW doesn't may not necessarily work in how APL "sees" those level. Before applying the correction, i may re-do measurements in APL until levels in the power response across all the speakers in a three way look more or less even.

Stabme, when you do the Workshop measurements for level matching of the power responses of all drivers , do you use the area suggested by Raimonds or your cube?
In Workshop what accuracy of level matching you aim at between L/R channel and across the three ways, how many dBs ? I have found it quite difficult to match all six levels of acoustic power frequency response for a 3way system.
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Old 04-29-2019   #1027
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by an.vamv View Post
Stabme, when you do the Workshop measurements for level matching of the power responses of all drivers , do you use the area suggested by Raimonds or your cube?
In Workshop what accuracy of level matching you aim at between L/R channel and across the three ways, how many dBs ? I have found it quite difficult to match all six levels of acoustic power frequency response for a 3way system.

Since you are doing measurements of L side and R side, then this shouldn't be an issue. If the sound seems shifted to the left or right of center when complete, then simply adjust one of the following:


1. Balance of source L-R
2. Adjust gain in DSP for L or R side drivers together for more/less output to center up
3. Adjust the filter gain of one side to center up.

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Old 04-29-2019   #1028
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by an.vamv View Post
Holmz, in practice how do you approach the issue of measurements with Workshop ??
My description was more academic, and how one might generically do this in MATLAB or similar.
I thought someone was doing a video?
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Old 04-30-2019   #1029
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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By the way, level matching in REW doesn't may not necessarily work in how APL "sees" those level. Before applying the correction, i may re-do measurements in APL until levels in the power response across all the speakers in a three way look more or less even.
You can import the DAT files that Workshop creates directly into REW. By doing this, you can do all of your measuring with Workshop so what you see in both apps matches each other.

There are some specific things that REW can't do with the DAT files(like waterfall plots) but it's a great way to compare what you are doing in both apps.

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Old 04-30-2019   #1030
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by an.vamv View Post
Stabme, when you do the Workshop measurements for level matching of the power responses of all drivers , do you use the area suggested by Raimonds or your cube?
In Workshop what accuracy of level matching you aim at between L/R channel and across the three ways, how many dBs ? I have found it quite difficult to match all six levels of acoustic power frequency response for a 3way system.
I level match each speaker separately with REW and pink noise using moving mic technic. Yes, the same area. When speakers are more or less level matched, i measure in Workshop and this time it is a stereo signal with crossovers and level matching applied, not each speaker individually. Pretty basic technique.
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Old 04-30-2019   #1031
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Originally Posted by LumbermanSVO View Post
You can import the DAT files that Workshop creates directly into REW. By doing this, you can do all of your measuring with Workshop so what you see in both apps matches each other.

There are some specific things that REW can't do with the DAT files(like waterfall plots) but it's a great way to compare what you are doing in both apps.
Wow, i didn't know that. Thanks!

BTW, i believe that Woekshop does level match speakers to the level of the first measured speaker. So in order to avoid clipping, one should play with Zero Level Eq setting, or measure the quitest driver first. Level matching is very useful when measuring small area around the head - the levels are precisely set for this particular position.

Would love to hear Raimonds input on level matching. And on measuring small area around the head VS the whole cabin
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

So 5 years later.... Is this thing still a very viable auto-eq option?

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Old 1 Week Ago   #1033
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

The miniDSP with Dirac has some advantages:

1. Far less expensive

2. More channels

3. Easier measurement and target generation process

4. PC and Mac software support

5. Better D/A converters (32 bit Asahi Kasei, same as Helix Pro MK2)

6. No separate DSP needed, everything is in one box.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

subterFUSE,

Do you use an 8-channel Dirac from miniDSP?

I have an experience with DiracD22 (two channel digital version) which i put before BitOne in the signal chain of my 3 way + sub. Was very satisfied with sound. Then went 5.1 with JBL MS-8. But that was in my previous car. After that i switched to a CarPC with 10 channel audio interface, Reaper as my DSP, linear phase x-overs (FabQ), DTS Upmixing for 5.1 and APL on top of it all. Now i am super satisfied


At the moment, i am not quite sure that correcting the whole power response is a good idea inside the car. When i measure the whole cabin and get use the correction, i still don't get that desired pinpoint imaging. I guess this is because power response of the whole cabin is different from what is happening around one's head. But when you measure the response around the head, in my car APL finds huge dips in the frequency response and tries to correct them with 8-15db of boost in 150-300hz range which eats all the headroom or creates artifacts.

I found a workaround - measure and correct the whole cabin, then measure around the head and add some PEQ on top of that.

Raimonds, what are your thoughts on this?
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
At the moment, i am not quite sure that correcting the whole power response is a good idea inside the car. When i measure the whole cabin and get use the correction, i still don't get that desired pinpoint imaging. I guess this is because power response of the whole cabin is different from what is happening around one's head. But when you measure the response around the head, in my car APL finds huge dips in the frequency response and tries to correct them with 8-15db of boost in 150-300hz range which eats all the headroom or creates artifacts.

I found a workaround - measure and correct the whole cabin, then measure around the head and add some PEQ on top of that.

Raimonds, what are your thoughts on this?
I've had no problem measuring around the head area. Have you tried fixing the dip through the install instead of tuning?

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Old 1 Week Ago   #1036
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post
subterFUSE,



Do you use an 8-channel Dirac from miniDSP?



I have an experience with DiracD22 (two channel digital version) which i put before BitOne in the signal chain of my 3 way + sub. Was very satisfied with sound. Then went 5.1 with JBL MS-8. But that was in my previous car. After that i switched to a CarPC with 10 channel audio interface, Reaper as my DSP, linear phase x-overs (FabQ), DTS Upmixing for 5.1 and APL on top of it all. Now i am super satisfied





At the moment, i am not quite sure that correcting the whole power response is a good idea inside the car. When i measure the whole cabin and get use the correction, i still don't get that desired pinpoint imaging. I guess this is because power response of the whole cabin is different from what is happening around one's head. But when you measure the response around the head, in my car APL finds huge dips in the frequency response and tries to correct them with 8-15db of boost in 150-300hz range which eats all the headroom or creates artifacts.



I found a workaround - measure and correct the whole cabin, then measure around the head and add some PEQ on top of that.



Raimonds, what are your thoughts on this?


I love Fabfilter products. I wish I had the patience to run CarPC so I could run any VST I want. You may want to spend a pretty buck on Penteo Perfect Surround if you're using stereo upmixing. I heard it's one of the best in the industry right now. It doesn't have as much artifacts as some of the competition.

Download a free trial of Penteo Perfect Surround and hear the difference.


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Old 1 Week Ago   #1037
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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I've had no problem measuring around the head area. Have you tried fixing the dip through the install instead of tuning?
It's a Range Rover Sport and it has a large central console. I think, it is causing the dip, because when i measure my midbass with the door open and mic close to the driver (30m), the dip goes away. Fixing it with install would mean removing the console

Quote:
I love Fabfilter products. I wish I had the patience to run CarPC so I could run any VST I want. You may want to spend a pretty buck on Penteo Perfect Surround if you're using stereo upmixing. I heard it's one of the best in the industry right now. It doesn't have as much artifacts as some of the competition.

Download a free trial of Penteo Perfect Surround and hear the difference.
Yeah, the car spent months in the garage while the equipment was installed.

I tried NuGen Upmix which was not bad, but too CPU-Hungry. DTS is not bad, but i've found that it ruins transients when used with central channel when compared to pure stereo. Quad mode brings some nice ambiance, though.

Will try Penteo - been reading a lot about it.
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

If you point the midbass toward the dome light, does it help with the dip?
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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If you point the midbass toward the dome light, does it help with the dip?
I doubt it. The first dip is at 180hz - at this frequency pointing will not work, the sound radiates in all directions.
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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

Is the underside of your dash sealed up?

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Is the underside of your dash sealed up?
Not sure if i quite understand the question, but i did apply some dampening to the insides of the dash, but otherwise there is nothing to seal up. Central console is damped with MLV and decoupling material.

It is quite large, though, which might be causing cancellations:

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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Not sure if i quite understand the question, but i did apply some dampening to the insides of the dash, but otherwise there is nothing to seal up. Central console is damped with MLV and decoupling material.



It is quite large, though, which might be causing cancellations:





In most cars the under side of the dash is hallow. Sound may travel up there and bounce back down to cancel out. Most of the time it's difficult to seal up the underside because of the pedals. Not impossible but difficult. I'm not even sure if it makes a huge difference. Haven't had a chance to test on my car.


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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

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In most cars the under side of the dash is hallow. Sound may travel up there and bounce back down to cancel out. Most of the time it's difficult to seal up the underside because of the pedals. Not impossible but difficult. I'm not even sure if it makes a huge difference. Haven't had a chance to test on my car.


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tonynca is correct, that's what I was talking about.

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Default Re: Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP / EQ / Phase Correction Unit

That is a good advice there. I will try to see what i can do and retest.
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