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Old 04-09-2016   #76
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Even if it is door installment of the mids, it does not explain the difference between left and right channels. Interesting to check FIR filters upload for the right channel. Wrong EQ by ms8? Look also on XO points and filter orders. Just to eliminate possible error source.

Can you repeat the measurement for the right side?

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Old 04-09-2016   #77
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I have to stress this:

DO NOT SIT IN SEAT WHILE MEASURING. DON'T TOUCH THE MICROPHONE.

Clamp it in headrest, in the middle where your head is normally. If you move the mic even an inch the measurement will be messed up. If you are aiming for repeatable results while correcting time coherency the mic must be absolutely stationary.
Ok that makes sense, will do next time (damn' I don't have a headrest )
But what about picking a "repeatable" point, that is closer to each ear?
Doesn't it make sense to use a point around left ear for left channel, and right ear for right channel ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Elgrosso, The results you seeing on right side are probably due to destructive interference. I assume there's dips in the frequency response (AFR) at the same spots. Is this a 2 or 3-way? If it's a door mid it's perfectly normal. A small dedicated midrange should do better if placed optimally. Where is the crossovers?
It's a 3 way, mids on dash, and the interferences here are near the cross over point: 800Hz/24db between woofer and midranges (even if it looks like 500Hz here).

I didn't "REW" this setup yet, but usually I have more a peak around there.

I re-did them this morning, so mic in hand I probably moved few mm (not inch)
right ear/right channel:

left ear/left channel:


But they are really different than yesterday, around the sub.
Maybe I had a different sub setting I don't remember.
Next measures will be more serious, here it was just to see how this works.
But probably nothing soon, big rain last few days, and my old car is a bit leaky... had to remove the gti to protect them :/

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Old 04-09-2016   #78
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

No. Place it in the absolute center, no different positions for left/right

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Old 04-09-2016   #79
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

If you got the option in the Ms8, delay the entire system EXCEPT sub by 15ms.

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Old 04-09-2016   #80
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

You do not have that ability.
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Old 04-09-2016   #81
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Much better this time. I will remake the test for both fronts - to see how big TA values should be for their alignment (both on one graph). In any case, both fronts have to be delayed appr. 16-18 ms for better connection with the sub.

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Old 04-09-2016   #82
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

If given the option I sometimes cascade delays from headunit into DSP by using 2 different outputs. Gives you more room to work with delays in the LF.

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Old 04-09-2016   #83
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
No. Place it in the absolute center, no different positions for left/right
OK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
You do not have that ability.
yep,
but I have a 180 switch on sub maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
Much better this time. I will remake the test for both fronts - to see how big TA values should be for their alignment (both on one graph). In any case, both fronts have to be delayed appr. 16-18 ms for better connection with the sub.
Thx Alextaastrup,
this soft is easy in fact, the easiest to read maybe.
Anyway I think I'll try the Cdsp soon to have more control (after the rain )

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Old 04-09-2016   #84
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
but I have a 180 switch on sub maybe?
At 90Hz a 180deg swap would equal ~5.5ms if the sub is 180deg out of phase right now... Unless you got a large null at the crossover lol.

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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

No such null
Well I deal with this later, in fact I'm about to remove the sub box behind me and put the rear seat back. (just need to find some decent 6"/7 sub to put in the two hidden oem enclosures)

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Old 04-09-2016   #86
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

This is the best I have been able to achieve. But as you can see my sub is 20+ ms out and I am out of delay on my tweeters. The Helix only goes to 15.6ms. So any suggestions on what I should try?
Right now I using LR 24's for all crossovers. Should I try using a lower order crossover and maybe Bessel or Butterworth instead of LR?

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Old 04-09-2016   #87
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Acoustic crossovers are what matters, see the crossovers in your DSP as response shaping. There seem to be sub/mid integration issues as well as T/A and/or L/R FR inconsistancies. I would do individual measurements on all driver by RTA/noise so you get as much averaging as possible. Then compare all the individual measurements to a full left side+sub and a full right side +sub, check if all drivers sum at crossovers. Check actual slopes. Do a sweep of left side and one of the right side in RoomEQ for example, check excess group delay for large peaks which indicates destructive interference.

If the L/R EQ is set correctly you should be able to set T/A by ear very easy with correlated pink noise. I can measure my car tomorrow and show you why some of these issues occur.


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Old 04-09-2016   #88
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Ok, sounds like I just need to start back at step one. I want to change my house curve anyways. I will go back and make sure I have everything dialed with with EQ before trying to utilize TDA.

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Old 04-15-2016   #89
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I have to stress this:

DO NOT SIT IN SEAT WHILE MEASURING. DON'T TOUCH THE MICROPHONE.

Clamp it in headrest, in the middle where your head is normally. If you move the mic even an inch the measurement will be messed up. If you are aiming for repeatable results while correcting time coherency the mic must be absolutely stationary.

Elgrosso, The results you seeing on right side are probably due to destructive interference. I assume there's dips in the frequency response (AFR) at the same spots. Is this a 2 or 3-way? If it's a door mid it's perfectly normal. A small dedicated midrange should do better if placed optimally. Where is the crossovers?
Great thread, and an important venture in an important topic.

I've worked with CSDs in the past but the lack of software to sum up time domain responses from multiple mic positions is a huge drawback. The only way to receive an input signal unbiased is to average many many times from correct positions, with your body in the seat. That way your measurement is centered on the "true" signal your brain receives and measurement error is mitigated through averaging.

If the "measurement is messed up" by moving one inch, you have big problem. The solution is not to keep the mic fixed but to implement some form of averaging and to place the mic correctly around your years when your head is next to it.

I have no doubt that you measurement is correct for that location and an empty car, but whether that is relevant to what you hear when in your seat is ultimately a very important topic. Even if you repeat the measurement exactly by mimicking your previous test position it does not mean your results are accurate, just that the software has high accuracy. You still have to feed it the right signal.

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Old 04-15-2016   #90
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Ms8 and APL, so it's really not me
But check that, left and right:





Sub could be better on both, i have somehting strange on the right woofer, and some ringing on the right tweeter?
I'll try some more with ms8 on/off and apl on/off.
Check your vertical axis. It appears you changed the axis settings between left and right. The software likely gives you the option to focus on certain frequencies and you may have done so not knowingly.

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Old 04-15-2016   #91
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvjoint View Post
Great thread, and an important venture in an important topic.

I've worked with CSDs in the past but the lack of software to sum up time domain responses from multiple mic positions is a huge drawback. The only way to receive an input signal unbiased is to average many many times from correct positions, with your body in the seat. That way your measurement is centered on the "true" signal your brain receives and measurement error is mitigated through averaging.

If the "measurement is messed up" by moving one inch, you have big problem. The solution is not to keep the mic fixed but to implement some form of averaging and to place the mic correctly around your years when your head is next to it.

I have no doubt that you measurement is correct for that location and an empty car, but whether that is relevant to what you hear when in your seat is ultimately a very important topic. Even if you repeat the measurement exactly by mimicking your previous test position it does not mean your results are accurate, just that the software has high accuracy. You still have to feed it the right signal.
TDA is some kind of mashup between a CSD and Group Delay plot.

You are correct that you need to do a lot of averaging when doing CORRECTIONS in the frequency response.

This is different. We are measuring ONE point in space, time domain measurements are always and only available at one specific point in space. If you are sitting in the car while doing time domain measurements or impulse aligning, it will most likely be messed up because the head cause "shadowing". It can cause significant changes in the frequency response and it will impact the phase response / time domain as well. You are also correct that we need to correlate this with what we are hearing, the head shadowing is a distortion in the measurement we don't want, we don't perceive the sound that way, there is always acoustic crosstalk. I've done extensive testing into this and found that an empty car with the mic is usable for two types of testing.

1. Time domain measurements.

2. Subwoofer measurements (matters very very little if you sit in the car or not, no averaging is required either).

Don't understand what you mean by "feeding it the right signal" though. TDA creates the sweep and measures at the same time.

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Old 04-15-2016   #92
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
TDA is some kind of mashup between a CSD and Group Delay plot.

You are correct that you need to do a lot of averaging when doing CORRECTIONS in the frequency response.

This is different. We are measuring ONE point in space, time domain measurements are always and only available at one specific point in space. If you are sitting in the car while doing time domain measurements or impulse aligning, it will most likely be messed up because the head cause "shadowing". It can cause significant changes in the frequency response and it will impact the phase response / time domain as well. You are also correct that we need to correlate this with what we are hearing, the head shadowing is a distortion in the measurement we don't want, we don't perceive the sound that way, there is always acoustic crosstalk. I've done extensive testing into this and found that an empty car with the mic is usable for two types of testing.

1. Time domain measurements.

2. Subwoofer measurements (matters very very little if you sit in the car or not, no averaging is required either).

Don't understand what you mean by "feeding it the right signal" though. TDA creates the sweep and measures at the same time.
It GD and CSD are basically the same thing no? I can see this platform has various ways to show you a plot but the information contained should be the same. The 2D plot is very nice.

As long as you can move the mic and collect another series of time domain measurements (and they should be different) then averaging is a matter of "how to" not "is it possible?" In this case if you could export your time measurements in a raw format from multiple mic positions you could average them.

Ok, if you restrict your use to TA and subwoofer measurements then I agree, you are taking in the right signal. Go on.

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Old 04-15-2016   #93
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Group delay is the negative slope of the phase response. A CSD displays ringing (decay) in the magnitude response (derived from the IR). Both depict linear distortion. The 2D/3D view is kinda special, I haven't seen a program that combines delay and decay/ringing in the same plot. It's certainly useful since you get data that would require way more work to attain otherwise.

Yes you can average them that way but the thing is, what are you gonna use it for? :P

We need some kind of "zero point" to use as reference, it can be useful to move the mic and see if some issues goes away but to attain repeatability you would need some kind of jig so you can set the mic at fixed positions so you can eliminate an altered mic position while troubleshooting an A vs B measurement. We must know if we are applying corrections to fix the mic position or the speaking tuning, that's the reasoning behind my statement

APL Workshop is the exact opposite of TDA, there you average hundreds of points in the sound power domain.

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Old 04-15-2016   #94
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Finally loaded this bad boy up to mess with it. Here goes nothing.

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Old 04-15-2016   #95
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

I have a few plots to upload tomorrow, measured my new build. Right side measured almost flat from 50Hz to 20kHz +/- 2ms, with only level matching and T/A. No EQ at all. Was actually surprised how good it looked, only two minor hiccups around 1-2kHz for some reason.

Edit: I had them on this computer lol.

No tuning at all, no T/A, No level matching. Right side only.



Level matching and T/A applied. No EQ. APL bypassed.

That ringing around 400Hz is due the high Q small pods of the midrange drivers. I might have to vent them better... You can also see the high Q peak for midbass enclosures around 130Hz.



Sub got pretty high GD even though it's in a large sealed box.


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Old 04-15-2016   #96
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Nice, where do you cross your mids here, 200hz??
And how did you change the time window on the graph? Or I guess you have the full version now

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Old 04-15-2016   #97
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvjoint View Post
Check your vertical axis. It appears you changed the axis settings between left and right. The software likely gives you the option to focus on certain frequencies and you may have done so not knowingly.
Here they're really almost the same.
I have trouble managing the view on this, it jumps from front 2d to 3d with the slightest trackpad move. Maybe it's // desktop, or just windows...

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Old 04-16-2016   #98
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Nice, where do you cross your mids here, 200hz??
And how did you change the time window on the graph? Or I guess you have the full version now

80/200/3700Hz.

There's a box where you can enter the time window. Yep I'm running the "full" version


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Old 04-16-2016   #99
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

These are the Eton right? I saw that you had trouble in an old post, when crossed at 160hz.

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Old 04-17-2016   #100
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

K so am I doing something wrong? Or will it simply not allow seeing the TDA plot or 3D plot in demo mode?




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