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Old 04-22-2016   #126
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Default TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
If one has a capacity limit in TA, what is the best solution? MiniDSP? Others?

I am looking for DSP or simply cheap time machine with more than 20ms.

Has anybody tried to ask Raimonds about limitation in the APL1 soft (less than 5ms)? Is it possible to increase this figure or not? Are there any soft upgrade for the APL with better TA possibilities?

MiniDSP 2x4 with rear center plugin can do 27ms. It has other limitations though. DCX2496 can do like 1000ms lol.

The 5ms is an offset of the IR wave, should be possible to offset more... I'll send him a mail later.


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Old 04-22-2016   #127
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
If one has a capacity limit in TA, what is the best solution? MiniDSP? Others?

I am looking for DSP or simply cheap time machine with more than 20ms.

Has anybody tried to ask Raimonds about limitation in the APL1 soft (less than 5ms)? Is it possible to increase this figure or not? Are there any soft upgrade for the APL with better TA possibilities?
One option to get more delay is to route the output of a DSP channel into an input and then route that input to another output. You could then use the delay on both DSP channels to cascade up to 30 ms on a Helix DSP Pro.

Only downside is this must be done analog.

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Old 04-22-2016   #128
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumledb View Post
Yeah, I am starting back at square one. I am going to focus on making sure I have everything dialed in with REW before trying to utilize TDA again.

I'll probably post over in the REW dump thread once I get to work on it. Try to get some opinions and make sure everything is copacetic before proceeding further. I may be going to the big SQ show at College Station in June, so I have to get a good tune in, lest I be embarrassed to demo my truck.

And my new Cross Spectrum UMIK just arrived, time to get to tuning!
Your gonna have fun with the UMIK-1. I suggest trying the method I sent you in the youtube vids for quick measurements in RTA, comparing sides, setting levels and knocking down peaks to get the drivers looking like each other. I know folks are advocates for sweeps for accuracy, so to each his own. RTA averaging in REW is quick and ugly and kinda gets it down at about 1/12 smoothing.

One way I've done it is to measure one side (side 1), go after the nasties with EQ to get a good looking response, save the plot, go to the other side 2, repeat, save, and compare to side 1. I might go back/forth between them a couple times with end goal in mind of a good plot and matching plots. I find if I distance myself from trying to reach any "curve" at this point it works better.. By working on curve stuff afterwards when multiple drivers are playing (sides, pairs, groups), AFTER TA and centering of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumledb View Post
Looking good. I would be curious to see how your sub delay would change by using a 2nd order butterworth.
Interesting result here.. I switched to butterworth and had to back off on delay then flip the sub 180 to phase in. Without researching the difference in butterworth vs LR filters, I assume it's the nature of difference between them, but it dialed in nicely.

All said, I have to refrain from having more tuning fun and force myself to tear it down.. Pillars for the 3-way and an IB wall to do. So I can really boogie in the door mids when they no longer have to pull midrange duty above 400ish.

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Old 04-22-2016   #129
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
One option to get more delay is to route the output of a DSP channel into an input and then route that input to another output. You could then use the delay on both DSP channels to cascade up to 30 ms on a Helix DSP Pro.

Only downside is this must be done analog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alextaastrup View Post
If one has a capacity limit in TA, what is the best solution? MiniDSP? Others?

I am looking for DSP or simply cheap time machine with more than 20ms.

Has anybody tried to ask Raimonds about limitation in the APL1 soft (less than 5ms)? Is it possible to increase this figure or not? Are there any soft upgrade for the APL with better TA possibilities?
Is the APL1 JUST EQ, or does it also do TA and/or phase? It's kinda vague from memory looking at them.

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Old 04-22-2016   #130
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

APL solves minimum phase problems and by this optimizes the time alignment. To a certain degree of cause, as there are many other problems in a car cabin. This will be done automatically by EQ the system. Subwoofer delay partially can also be closer to the front (max 5ms), but this has to be done manually while uploading FIR filters to the unit.

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Old 04-23-2016   #131
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Any help interpreting the results?

Full system.

Sub: 20Hz/6 - 80Hz/24
Midbass: 63Hz/24 - 250Hz/24
Midrange: 250Hz/24-6000Hz/24
Tweets: 6000Hz/24

All drivers have been individually EQd using REW to a target response. No TA set.


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Old 04-23-2016   #132
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Set T/A using distance to drivers first off otherwise it will look like that. When you have done that then we can start to interpret it...


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Old 04-23-2016   #133
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Question. Using TDA will dial in both drivers to the business end point of a measuring mic. Brilliant thing. However, should you want to steer center a tad more left than the acoustic center between drivers which is rather right-sided in my car, is it safe to assume that'll completely screw up your TDA plot? So in that case, TDA will help you find dead center timing, then you're on your own if you're tuning to a more frontal center for stage depth perception.


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Old 04-23-2016   #134
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

If you don't want it right, you're on your own


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Old 04-23-2016   #135
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
If you don't want it right, you're on your own


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Well actually properly timed its kind of "right" meaning center is perceived as intersecting between midpoint between drivers, geometrically speaking. If that makes sense. So there's a fine line of staying with that and some point left of that so not too far left to compress left stage and stretch right stage. A matter of a couple inches if looking at the rather long dash.

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Old 04-23-2016   #136
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Default TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

That does broach the question of rather "tricking" the results with mic placement. Hmm. According to tracerite, to steer to the left, you subtract delay on left, add delay on right, this bringing the theoretical left driver closer, right driver further away. So, if you positioned the mic for TDA slightly more to the left, this might simulate the same result, no?

Might be worth some fun for center steering experiment. I guess we're taking splitting hairs here. But hypothesis being that when your noggin is listening in same 0-point position after -2" TDA mic position (left), the result would be a slightly more left center image at your ears, still well timed. So, If you move your head an inch or so left, so ears center where the mic was at TDA measurement, it'd be exactly timed and ITD stage (dunno if that's proper term but I'll go with it) should then move rightward. ??

Not counting leveling adjustments of course, since image is ITD and ILD driven (and I'm only beginning to understand those so I know I'm no expert nor claim to be one or even play one on TV).


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Last edited by Babs; 04-23-2016 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 04-23-2016   #137
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Hey scott, one thing to keep in mind about nailing t/a, are the advantages to stage reproduction as far as depth, perceived ambience and such. Not only are you working for a proper center, you're building the stage and the phase adjustments make sure all the geometry is kept in order when listening. I mean, I can center my stage with t/a....... and levels. You can have yer levels just right, and center well, but the overall stage representation can be funky from t/a errors.......on the other hand, you can have your t/a dialed and still skew yer stage with levels and eq. To add to the top of this complicated stage construction, you can have your t/a and levels dialed, then funk up the phase with eq, requiring t/a adjustment, which can in turn funk up your tonality.......lmao, this whole hobby can be maddening, but it is a serious challenge, and no car is perfect, they just have different disadvantages. The key is making the right compromises to satisfy your ears........
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Old 04-23-2016   #138
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Default TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Moving the mic to the left would simulate more required delay to left side. More delay on left channel moves stage to the right. I think you need to place mic to the right. Then there would be less delay on left channel and stage would move to the left.

Hate thinking backwards, I might got it wrong...


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Old 04-23-2016   #139
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Set T/A using distance to drivers first off otherwise it will look like that. When you have done that then we can start to interpret it...


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As requested.

Times set using the trace rite website. I set the midbass/sub delay using the 'cross over' method?

Values:
RTW: 1.77ms
LTW: 0.53ms
RMR: 1.55ms
LMR: 0.39ms
RMB: 6.51ms
LMB: 4.41ms
Sub: 10.02ms 180deg phase shift


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Old 04-24-2016   #140
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

The idea of null-delay in the low end has resulted into new set of measurements and XO/TA settings.

Initial info: sedan, 3way passive, sub almost without EQ possibilites (only from HU), APL1 - only for the front channels.

After some attempts I came to the following results - see attached graphs. Tests were made both in TDA and REW in the same single point at the driver's headrest (no averaging). Therefore - information above 1 kHz is not so interested here. My intention was to minimize delay of the sub when connected to the front by different sets of XO and TA settings. The best was achieved by implementing the TA difference between the left and right channel of 51cm, while actual difference from the listening position is only 27cm??? When applying the settings close to 27cm, the closest channel is dominating, moving the scene to the left. Remind, I do not have possibilities to adjust the volume for a separate speaker.

All these three pictures show 2 channels +sub playing simultaniously.

DFR shows less than 1 ms above 500Hz and around 2ms from 40Hz!!! until 500Hz. I suppose that below this we can see nonlinear things based on the mechanical construction of the subwoofer speaker and its work in a sealed box. Correct me if I am wrong on this statement.

What is interesting, that the REW mesurements showed a significant GD (appr. 60ms), while dfr (TDA) has not revealed this. On the other hand, we can observe some energy (delayed in time domain for the same value) on the 2D graph.

Impressions - as there is no many sounds below 40Hz in music, compared to other frequencies, this might be expected some audible improvement of the sound at the LF. And that is correct: sound is more tight, clear and straight forward.

Present XO points (due to the lack of TA capacity - used everything possible in HU/H100 -336cm): 50Hz, 6dB/oct - sub, 63Hz, 12dB/oct - mid.

Comments are very appreciated.
dfr.jpg2d.jpgGD REW.jpg

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Old 04-24-2016   #141
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Put your sub on like a 6th order slope and the mid on a 4th order and measure again. See if there's a difference between 50-500 hz.

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Old 04-24-2016   #142
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Group delay and DFR/TDA plots don't display the same thing. I don't know exactly what the difference is... TDA is something else and just like APL can't be compared to anything else I've seen.

I will post a detailed guide how to utilize TDA and how to set T/A properly. Idk, tape measure distance doesn't seem to work very well for a lot of people.


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Old 04-24-2016   #143
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Guys, is there a significant delay difference in using an analog or digital chain?

I mean, for simplicity and practical reasons I never used the exact same setup for measurements and listening, it was:
Phone > digit > dac > analog > apl > analog > ms8 (listening)
---------------- Laptop > analog > apl > analog > ms8 (measurements)
The difference was only the dac delay (if any)

But now the plan is to use full digital to the C-dsp:
Phone > digit > airport express and/or icon ido > digit > apl > digit > cdsp
------------------------------------------------- laptop > analog > apl > digit > cdsp

So bigger difference in chain, might have more impact, should I bother about that?

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Old 04-24-2016   #144
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
Put your sub on like a 6th order slope and the mid on a 4th order and measure again. See if there's a difference between 50-500 hz.
I have tried almost all possible combinations due to certain limitations in the present install: TA: 0-336cm - not too much for a sub in a trunk (sound is comming through two old holes in the backshelf).

Filter order: 0-4 (max 24dB/oct).

When the sub polarity (electrical) was turned to 180 degrees, the best match in phase was even more strange: LPF:40Hz, 1.order, HPF: 80Hz, 1.order. Now the sub is back to 0 degrees and therefore - another set of XO points. I need more capacity in TA. Will buy soon miniDSP for this purpose. Just to use as a time machine.

EQ of sub is also not really possible as I have only 2 frequencies in the 5 band PEQ (63 and 125Hz). Maybe another miniDSP will be needed.

Another question is about placement of the mic during delay measurements. I am not sure that during the last set of the tests, the mic was placed exactly at the same point as during the previous one. At that time I have concentrated in the area 100-20000Hz and have managed to find a set of parameters which gave me less than 1,5 ms in all this diapason. But now - after some readings, were authors stated that 1,5-2 cycles (periods) are just fine and are below the threshold for mid and high frequencies. So I was trying to make the LF range as flat as possible for group delay -by rather limited sources. Result: 2,5ms until 40Hz - is it audible?

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Old 04-30-2016   #145
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

All right, I promised I'd give a walkthrough how to setup a full system. The tape measure method isn't always accurate but can be used as a baseline to start from. There are many methods out there and people swear their method is superior...

This is what I find to be the optimal/easiest way of doing it, I ignore the difference between drivers on the same side to begin with. This is a combined "by ear"/measurement method.


1. First step is to make sure the left and right sides got an equal frequency response, this is paramount, if L/R differs more than 3dB the entire procedure will fail. If you use APL, the software automatically fixes the L/R balance. If you got a normal DSP you need to set it up manually with RoomEQ software or such.

2. Download this: Test Tracks. We're interested in the first track, this is correlated pink noise (mono recording).

3. In your DSP mute all speakers except midbass drivers, keep both drivers on (left and right).

4. Now we need to determine the acoustic center, if you unsure where this is, it's usually slightly left of the physical center of the dash in most cars. Put a piece of tape there or something else to mark this place.

5. Play the correlated pink noise though both speakers (left/right), delay driver side until you hear the noise coming from the tape marker on dash.

6. Now mute midbass drivers and turn on both midrange drivers (in a 3-way). Repeat step 5.

7. Mute midrange drivers, turn on both tweeters. Repeat step 5.

8. Now all drivers are tuned to the acoustic center. Turn on all speakers + sub. Run TDA, place mic in the middle and about 6 inch in front of the headrest. Don't sit in the seat, it's ok to be in the back seat though.

9. Now we should have something to work with, all areas where the speakers don't overlap should be flat (a black straight line). What we want to look for is offsets and other discrepancies around the crossover of the drivers. This means that the speakers are misaligned to each other by some amount.

*** The tweeter crossover is usually place high in frequency, the wavelengths will be small and therefore a very small delay shift is required to bring them back in phase around the crossover. The lower in frequency we go the bigger delay is needed for a given phase shift. There are multiple way of lining up speakers to eachother within a channel, I believe the "magnitude summing method" is easiest but I don't wanna bring this channel off topic***

10. Now that we already set L/R coherency and just want to set the delay within a channel (the delays between all left OR right speakers), it's important that we don't change the L/R relation delay numbers, we only want to offset it. Write down the actual delay between midbass drivers, between midrange drivers, between tweeters. This number might be offset, but not changed.

In other words left midrange might have 1,5ms delay and right midrange 0ms delay. If you set 2ms delay on left and 0,5 on right, there is still 1,5ms delay between these two drivers and the center will not shift. This is what I refer to as an offset.



---------------------------------------------------------------------


1. After running the sweep in TDA. It might look something this now;



Here we see that midranges are slightly delayed vs tweeters and the midbass is about 6ms away from midranges. DFR will show the numbers with precision. In this situation we want to delay midranges 6ms and tweeters 6,5ms.

2. Enter numbers + the relative delay between L/R in your DSP and do another sweep.



Should look something like this now. The shift at 50Hz are due to subwoofer group delay, that is a whole other topic...

3. Done!

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Old 04-30-2016   #146
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

This is how my L/R balance looked before any response shaping. It needs to be this close.


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Old 04-30-2016   #147
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Awesome write up Hanatsu!


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Old 04-30-2016   #148
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Thank you Hanatsu!
So you used the APL before TDA, will you re measure/apply new EQ eventually after again?

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Old 05-02-2016   #149
 
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Rhhaaa demo expired! :/

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Old 05-02-2016   #150
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Default Re: TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Rhhaaa demo expired! :/


Yeah mine did too. I was pretty bummed. I even tried uninstalling, re-downloading, and reinstalling but it still recognizes my computer and says demo expired.

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