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Old 12-26-2017   #26
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Hello, I run carpc win10, i have only 2 ch output (Essence ST card). I can play active with Amp xovers (arc audio SE4200 + 2300 amps) and run Rephase in my carpc? ,

my settup is tweter, midwoofer + sub. (seas magnum + seas W15cy001 + L26roy)
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Old 12-27-2017   #27
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
But after January I should start having more time, I stepped down from management to move to a store closer to home, (5hr a day drive too hard on the Fam) so I値l finish the year in my store than transfer. Makes me pretty sad, I love that position and worked pretty hard to attain it, but need to open new chapter. So, I値l have more time for everything else. (Should be a good thing for now)
I knew you've eventually jump stores, the drive on 25 is absolutely insane.

When the top comes off, the tops come off!
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Old 01-09-2018   #28
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

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Originally Posted by Miguel mac View Post
Hello, I run carpc win10, i have only 2 ch output (Essence ST card). I can play active with Amp xovers (arc audio SE4200 + 2300 amps) and run Rephase in my carpc? ,

my settup is tweter, midwoofer + sub. (seas magnum + seas W15cy001 + L26roy)

Yes in fact that痴 a sweet way to do it (if your ok with car pc lag) but yes with
Jriver as a convolution engine and rePhase you get get a very high tap count.

Keep in mind CPU convolution and FFt convolution are a bit different, but a lot of ppl use a pc as a DSP and run half million tap filters with good success. I tend to like fft better with shorter impulses (the smearing stays manageable)

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 01-09-2018   #29
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

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Originally Posted by LumbermanSVO View Post
I knew you've eventually jump stores, the drive on 25 is absolutely insane.


YES it is downright brutal !

1week at new store so far so good, it痴 a bit tough at times going to a new store because no one knows how intense I am with car audio so I have to throttle way back to mind others egos and feelings to a degree. But so far so good ,
24hrs a week more with the fam...









覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧

More to come later , after the Super Bowl. I値l be back on my game and get to more rePhase fun .

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 01-22-2018   #30
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Sound a lot like myself A little bit freaky about DSP

In all honesty Dirac is a excellent tool hands down ,

But for the guy that can settle on a set of speakers and settle on not changing out his or her equipment every month and spent the time with rePhase one could really nail down a correction that performance is better than a Dirac tune with no mods, a tweaked Dirac tune is very good , but for those with the manual fir rePhase can do wonders .


Can稚 wait to use Dirac car platforms, not available as of yet but from what I hear is in the works, I have very high hopes for it.
If I run the DDRC-22D before a Helix DSP Pro and perform the Dirac Live measurements while the Helix is outputting a R+L summed center channel, will the output of the center channel be similar to the Dirac Virtual Center feature from their automotive sound systems?



泥irac Virtual Center can be applied even when a physical center speaker is mounted. Depending on the input mix to the center speaker, the soundstage tends to be rather narrow, in particular when the center speaker is fed with a left + right signal. Dirac Virtual Center allows for a tuning process where the physical center speaker is used to stabilize the center image rather than creating it. This results in a more stable and wider soundstage and a more distinct phantom center compared to when only a physical center speaker is used.

https://www.dirac.com/dirac-virtual-center/

Last edited by Bnlcmbcar; 01-23-2018 at 01:18 AM..
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Old 01-23-2018   #31
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Nope, Dirac live doesn稚 have all the fancy new stuff for oem yet.
And the 22d is only stereo so no way to create a filter for your center only.
But you could try an ms-8 for that, Logic7 works very well!
Best next step I guess would be the future Audiofrog dsp.

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Old 01-24-2018   #32
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

I was hoping through some awesome Dirac magic that it could help alleviate the mono center channel that most DSP users are stuck with due to companies not investing the pricey licenses for center channel processing.

Something along the lines of:

Since the center is R+L...

Only the R signal would come out of the Center in conjunction with the right speakers when performing the right side tune. And only the L signal would come out of the Center in conjunction with the left speakers when performing the left side tune..

So when played together through some magic that oabeieo could explain we would in a way derive the Dirac Virtual Center

Sighs.. patiently waiting for that Audiofrog unit.
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Old 01-25-2018   #33
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

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...
Sighs.. patiently waiting for that Audiofrog unit.
What AF unit?

Will this be as good or better than a DDRC-88A?
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Old 01-25-2018   #34
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Audiofrog is working on a unit that can upmix stereo to surround sound including proper Center channel by signal steering via Penteo. No details on whether it will have fir filter capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotFrogs View Post
There are a bunch of differences. First, in the matrix upmixers, the center is a summed L and R and the steering angle computer turns the levels of the channels up and down according to the calculated vector to maintain stage width. Second, the rears are a L-R signal.

In our Upmixer, the sound field in the stereo recording is separated into mono (same in L and R), Intermediate information (similar but not exactly the same in left and right--the sounds between the center and the left or the right) and differential information (only right and only left). The mono info is sent to the center. The intermediate and differential info is spread over the left and right, the sides and the rears--kind of like a horseshoe if you were to turn all of the dials to 11.

This provides great stage width, a stable center and no artifacts in the sides and rears.
Only Andy has the knowledge of when it will be out for retail. So until then I guess let痴 not stray too far since this thread is for RePhase and Dirac Live.

As far as the DDRC-88A, it does not have an up mixer to my knowledge. It can perform Dirac Live calibration to 8 seperate channels. I知 curious to know how many taps per channel? Same as DDRC22 divided amongst 8 channels or is itvmore like 4 DDRC22痴 in one?
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Old 02-22-2018   #35
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Elgrosso is right , Dirac isn稚 release anything for car as of yet

As far as a center ch. I would simply buy a logic 7 up mixer and insert that in the chain if you want a true center that has the proper decoding for what you want to do.

If you have a ddrc 22d before the helix i would run the correction without the center ch turned on (rears ok) so it doesn稚 mess with the 1st measurement that sets delays, but also would leave the eq work improper. I would just use rew after your Dirac run and eq the center in the helix to match the response of the left and right summed response . Meaning play both left and right together, use PN and do a moving mic average and just manually eq the center to match that response down to 250hz.or so if tiny center at least to 400.

For your center you will want to insert a toslink splitter and get a signal split before the ddrc so you can add a 2x4HD or DDRC24 to not be a part of your Dirac run , you won稚 want to try To upmix a Dirac correction as left and right will have different electrical responses respectively to the original source and up mixing is dependent on phase of left and right so that can稚 be altered to get a proper upmix.

With that dsp you could get the center to shape the way you want, obviously your upmixer would have to go between the source and any Dirac


The ddrc88A or BM is ideal for a updstream upmixer as it痴 seperate corrections tied to a single target. That how I would do it

Ditch the helix , use a ddrc88xx and a logic7 upmixer before it. Pretty easy and would be one hell of a sweet setup, and the BM add on you can get Dirac to use all the channels to make a dedicated sub output and also mix portions of each correction to any channel,
You could mix 25%of left correction and 25% of right correction on top of the center correction if there痴 massive differences in the drivers FR pre correction and mix parts of each correction and send it to other drivers to blend the sound if the locations are radically different as far as sound characteristics go.

The same exact acoustic response can sound completely different if one loudspeaker is playing let痴 say into glass and another is playing into carpet or a soft padded seat.....
So the 8&BM allows you to mix each Dirac correction onto other drivers to balance that in 1% increments. Pretty sweet. The combo of mixed corrections and seperate Dirac targets on each ch but tied to a single target would give you the ability to make it do whatever you want as far as how it sounds.

But again as far as upmixing , again just needs be done upstream than run corrections on each respective channel.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 02-22-2018 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 02-23-2018   #36
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Thanks!!

I couldn稚 discern what effect would occur when performing the Dirac Live calibration while a mono sum center speaker was turned on.

It痴 interesting you say to ditch the Helix. I致e actually been toying with the idea of fitting a surround upmixer unit in my glove compartment. I snagged an Outlaw Audio 975 from eBay that I was thinking of powering off a mini pure sine wave inverter upstream of the DDRC-88A with the BM plugin.

If you can fit and power the Outlaw unit it opens the door to:

-Analog and digital inputs including Optical,coax, and hdmi (perfect for iPad or tablet source).

-192 kHz 24-bit DAC's for each of its 8 output channels that can be processed to a surround sound matrix galore such as:

Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, and Dolby Digital decoding

DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS-HD High-Resolution Audio and DTS decoding

Dolby Pro Logic IIz, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Dolby Pro Logic II, and DTS NEO:6 processing/upmixing from Stereo in either Movie or Music modes

It can even set crossovers for each channel. Very tempting. As is your ms8 Logic 7 route. I致e only heard BMW痴 modified implementation of logic 7 for their vehicles. Not the true Lexicon or Harmon Logic 7 upmixing that痴 often touted as the best.

Do you know how many taps are available to each channel on the DDRC-88A?

In regards to the DDRC-22D + Helix Route, could I perform the calibration while Helix sends R-L and L-R signals to the rears? Or is it best to perform the calibration with a stereo rear and then modify the matrix post calibration?
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Old 02-23-2018   #37
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Good stuff, thanks for posting. I'll have to download RePhase and play with it.

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Old 02-28-2018   #38
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Good read. I am working a CarPC based FIR setup currently. I am sure this will help a ton. Thanks!

Traveling down the path to audio nirvana one painful step at a time...
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Old 04-23-2019   #39
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

So I知 back (after a year of hiding )

So rephase is going good a new release is out 1.4.1
It has some new features worth checking out.


However on the topic of phase correction and phase manipulation I would like to chat about all pass filters

Many of your dsps have all pass filters and maybe I can shed some light on there operations


What is an all pass? It痴 a filter. There痴 a few different types , I値l talk about 1st and 2dn order all pass (for audio)

So let痴 dig in.

First we need to discuss a few things. First the complex plane. The complex plane is an imaginary line that is where each pole on the filter is placed. Poles are exactly what they say. Poles like positive and negative right....not exactly but close. If a input and output signal have a shift in phase to or more than 360ー another pole could be said to be added , but in coefficients it痴 dosent quite work like that , it痴 the calculation that can add poles
For instance a filter with 90deg would have one pole at -1/rc and a zero at rc. Which makes them an inverse of each other. So the delay at the frequency would add the pole.

So in a 2nd order filter for instance the shift is frequency dependent. And the shift center frequency is at 1/4th the wavelength, which is called quadrature. So on your all pass control which is most likely a 2nd order all pass, the frequency you pick is when the input and output are 1/4th wavelength apart or 90ー respectively . The Q of the all pass says how fast the input and output rise and fall from 0ー to 360ー .

So when you add a all pass filter , the signal goes in , and when it reaches its center it is like a mirror effect putting the output to 360ー , so if it goes to 360 at lets use a center of 400hz , that means the input and output have a one cycle delay of the wavelength of 400hz right? Almost, it has a delay, but not quite a full cycle, it痴 a quarter cycle delay between poles. So what痴 the wavelength of 400hz 33.9 inches or 2.51ms a quarter of that is .62ms. So that added group delay can be a added or subtracted or by 1/2 from the input or output to 殿lignment with another crossover or speaker, but in a car , that痴 not what ere listening for.

You could certainly measure your car, window the response and do all that playing around with measurements and apply the all pass and it could definitely make things worse sounding.

I would suggest using an all pass filter as something you can listen to real time.

So where do you place these all pass filters ?

You have to get to know how your car behaves. It痴 not something rew can listen for it don稚 know if your stage is high or the vocal is high and center. Is there that one annoying frequency that pulls your phantom center to the left or right, or is there a severe combfiltering notch that just won稚 quit eating up all the ambiance and sucking the impact out of your system. An all pass might be a great help to solve some of these issues for one seat.

Knowing the all pass goes 妬n phase at 360 degrees which is essentially zero degrees with added group delay, you can move only some frequencies phase in a line, how steep that line is is the Q. A Q of 50 would move the phase from zero to 360 inmaybe a span of just a few frequencies where a Q of .5 will slowly shift the phase over the span of maybe entire octaves depending on how high or low the center is placed so if you have a deep combfiltering notch at 350hz or 400hz or 500hz (wherever that critical midrange and midbass notch appears) you can add an all pass to one of the two speakers and play with the centering and Q and it may or may not cooperate with what your trying to do. There痴 a lot of different things happening) if it does help great! You should now have either reinforcement at that frequency or you have shifted the aural cues on that frequency only to help support imagining and centering. Another trick is to use the all pass in the peaks to drive them out of phase , which will subsequently help fix the dips which are out of phase (that痴 why there dips) so if everything is out of phase, it痴 actually back in phase, sometimes a simple invert polarity switch along with an all pass is just what is needed.

I know the Macaroni .....I mean masconi and the JLvxi have all pass so does minidsp and a few others. Use the all pass , do it real time and listen.


Another cool thing with all pass, you can apply it at the knee of a crossover, as the crossover rolls off the phase moves , if you add a all pass at a frequency that is let痴 say 15ー from zero (could be 1db down or so on let痴 say a high pass) then it would shift the entire pass Band by 15ー +360 . Doing that and a little trickery between inverting the polarity you could shift the phase of the entire left or right channel , by small increments, that along with signal delay can really make them dash pods come together just great....


Or cascade several all passes with delay between them for reverb for that rear fill you always wanted to add space to ..... possibles are endless.....

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 04-23-2019   #40
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

IF You apply an allpass and it dosent do what you want.
Add or subtract a tiny delay to that speaker, it could just be the group delay that痴 messing with what you think is going to happen.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 04-24-2019   #41
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Here is a link to Swiss bears from DIy complete write up to do your own room correction using rephase .

This process works great, probably would want a opendrc or a few of them to get it done in a car. But this is the manual way to do a room correction


http://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=22240

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 04-24-2019   #42
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Cool a new forum, that I can read
Is it from POS?

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Old 04-25-2019   #43
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

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Cool a new forum, that I can read
Is it from POS?
Yeah, that guys is complete brainiac and super kind. He helps everyone, and has plenty of patience for noob questions. Super awesome dood.

But yeah I just got caught up on the 115 pages of thread reading I missed

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-07-2019   #44
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

one Thing rephase is very useful in a car is getting any unwanted ringing to go away.


If I turn off all eq and processing and listen to a speaker play in the environment it痴 in
Via a door or pillar or a box or kick or anything, I致e noticed any colorations caused by the speakers mounting almost always has phase issues that a simple adjustment might make that location better or enclosure better or pod or door etc


You can definitely do near field measurements the see exactly however
If you have a ringing from a location you can move the phase back a little and heat it go away.


It痴 a good idea to unmount your speakers off there mounting and measure the speaker in free air and try to replicate that , it痴 pretty easy to hear frequencies when there delayed or advanced after a few go痴 at it and after the correction when you fix it and it sounds and measures better,

I would suggest most of the eq done in the 120hz to 400hz range isn稚 necessary if you have a flat playing driver and a decent baffle and when the phase is fixed the peaks go down and the speaker plays like it should...


Even the best of installs ever would still need a little rephase in a car to just fix that last little bit.

It works amazingly well.

I値l try and post some measurements

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-15-2019   #45
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Okay gang here it is

This is the article that explains meaningful
Phase and transfer function and magnitude,

The stuff I致e been saying for about a year but falls on def ears
It took me a long time of figuring shit out and this kinda explains it all in one read


Pay the fu&$ attention to it when your reading tho it痴 easy to let your mind wander. If you listen to what this man is explaining it all makes sense and than you guys might realize that rephase actually is awesome companion with REW and you don稚 need no silly time domain software if you have a clue on how it all works together. REW is very good software by itself

This is why transfer function analysis is more important and must be considered when giving advice to someone about there system. The time domain can not be ignored especially in a car. Once you realize what it all means than statements like
撤urposely moving time delay +/- .5ms on a speaker away from tape measure distance can be a good thing because you don稚 know cyclically where the speaker your 斗ining it up to is at unless you have a understanding of how to read a transfer function to begin with.

This is the kind of stuff that makes us better


https://www.prosoundtraining.com/201...hase-response/

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

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Old 05-15-2019   #46
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Thanks for sharing that. I've never read it despite being a member. Lol.
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Old 05-15-2019   #47
 
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Default Re: rePhase,a loudspeaker phase linearization,EQ and FIR tool v.2 for car

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD240 View Post
Thanks for sharing that. I've never read it despite being a member. Lol.
Definitely!

And thanks for all the thanks everyone. It took some diggin to find that one.



I remember I posted a pair of transfer functions about a year ago (I think it was a Dirac live correction for left and right taken in REW) it had a three wraps in the phase but was all beautiful downhill. And left and right looked very similar. Anyway , I remember someone said something like ~背hat exactly am I looking at and 的 thought the phase was supposed to be flat

Getting flat phase on a graph isn稚 exactly what we池e trying to achieve exactly,
It痴 more about getting left and right to have the same phase and magnitude shape from the listener spot. The transfer function. Which placement and aiming of the speaker strongly makes it achievable. Sometimes even with massive amounts of dsp some parts just can稚 be fixed and still either 1. Sound good or 2. Get very loud.

A lot has been written that a speaker radiates below beaming at all directions and it痴 dosent matter how it痴 aimed. Well that kind of logic is very easy to prove true but unfortunately isn稚 how things pan out. The aiming of a speaker absolutely contributes to its transfer function. Getting symmetrical Impulses before any dsp put a car leagues ahead of the game


The electromechanical nature of a transducer and the amount of air it needs to displace per given input signal and the motion of the speaker is sorta in my mind how the time domain starts at the acoustical level.

If a speaker is moving 1mm at 1k (depending on a whole lot of electromechanical variables) to get to zero degrees at 1k (based on the input signal at that specific magnitude) if more power is given to that speaker at 1k it moves positive in phase (because it痴 getting louder and going uphill) when you look at it from right to its peak , however when you look at it from its peak down the phase becomes negative. That is the angular part of the phase that gives a minimum phase peak have those properties in its phase response. So if the amplitude is raised the speaker has to move faster to stay vibrating at 1000hz because it has to move farther from peak to peak because it has to move the suspension farther to make the amplitude greater. Longer travel makes the walls (or axis) of each angle longer as well. Imagine a triangular shape that gets bigger and bigger the louder you make a frequency compared to the other frequencies around it. So even though the speaker is moving 1000x a sec it痴 amount of travel is increased to make up for the higher amplitude. We all know a speaker is not a perfect piston at all amplitudes and frequencies however usually does a very good job in its operating range. It痴 the non linearities in the speaker and it痴 suspension that affects the time domain and it suggests that those differences is where a loudspeaker gets parts of its timbre or sound and subsequent phase response when measured closely other than its own natural reverbance from its build materials. So arbitrarily saying a speaker radiates the same as long as it痴 not beaming is false. The cone itself size dictates beaming and the cone itself is one of the axises on the angles of which it痴 displacement can produce either faithfully or not.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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