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Old 05-24-2018   #26
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
Its 270 x 205 x 35mm. Thats my unit..


Yeah I mixed it up. These are the correct numbers

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Old 05-24-2018   #27
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Its 270 x 205 x 35mm. Thats my unit..
I have mounted an extra plate behind the rear seats (sedan) for my present apl1 and amplifyer on one side, and the hand-made crossovers plus amp for the subwoofer on the other side. Looks great. There is even a place to replace the existing apl1 unit with this new monster one. Highly recommended.
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Old 05-24-2018   #28
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by GreatLaBroski View Post
Yeah I myself have 3x MiniDSP 2x4 HDs. Iím planning on doing some opamp / cap mods which should be good fun.

Youíre right that thereís not a lot of FIR filter options at this point in time. But, thereís another product with FIR filters which will enter the market in Q3-Q4 which is currently unannounced.

Iím thinking the DSP market is going to heat up soon.
I looked at three miniDSP, but there are no FIR filters there.

There was a French unit and I think some other system. I am not sure how I find a unit which is not announced , but I suspect that the APL will be good enough for me

I am not sure that the DSP market will heat up. Why pay more for a unit that is only a little better?
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Old 05-24-2018   #29
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
I looked at three miniDSP, but there are no FIR filters there.

There was a French unit and I think some other system. I am not sure how I find a unit which is not announced , but I suspect that the APL will be good enough for me

I am not sure that the DSP market will heat up. Why pay more for a unit that is only a little better?
MiniDSP 2x4HD, the MiniShac, the OpenDRC series, and the C-DSP 8x12 (eventually, needs firmware update for it) all support FIR.
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Old 05-24-2018   #30
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

The C-DSP?
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Old 05-24-2018   #31
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
The C-DSP?
Yes, their C-DSP 8x12 has FIR compatibility however the dev team has yet to release it in a firmware update. It says it in the spec sheet: ďIIR/FIR (depending on plugin)Ē.
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Old 05-25-2018   #32
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by GreatLaBroski View Post
Yes, their C-DSP 8x12 has FIR compatibility however the dev team has yet to release it in a firmware update. It says it in the spec sheet: ďIIR/FIR (depending on plugin)Ē.
^That^ is more like "existing in theory", than actually existing in the natural world..

I had been leaning the miniDSP way, but the support team and forum did not seem helpful enough for what I wanted, so I was in the fence... I am not sure how many people need to say FIR is a waste of my time, before we all agree that it seems that I am just too set in my ways.

I was about ready to dive in, and the choice was 88A-BM or the APL.

I suspect that they both end up at the same place in flatness/EQ - just the APL was "about ready to ship", and the miniDSP was "just needing a plugin".
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Old 05-25-2018   #33
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
^That^ is more like "existing in theory", than actually existing in the natural world..

I had been leaning the miniDSP way, but the support team and forum did not seem helpful enough for what I wanted, so I was in the fence... I am not sure how many people need to say FIR is a waste of my time, before we all agree that it seems that I am just too set in my ways.

I was about ready to dive in, and the choice was 88A-BM or the APL.

I suspect that they both end up at the same place in flatness/EQ - just the APL was "about ready to ship", and the miniDSP was "just needing a plugin".
Not exactly, the C-DSP 8x12 uses the ADSP21489 chip, which is the same as the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. The 2x4 HD does FIR today. I donít think itís a stretch to expect the 8x12 to do it. I do, however, have reservations about how whether or not there will be enough taps to effectively equalize / phase correct the sub-channel via FIR.

Either way you seem kind of defensive about it which isnít necessary. The APL seems like an excellent DSP, just out of my price range. I didnít go with the 8x12 myself because of the fact that the MiniDSP support / dev team is unwilling to communicate product roadmaps and I donít feel like waiting on them. I got a good deal on 3x 2x4 HDs and Iím doing Toslink into all 3. Iím a DIYíer so Iíll be upgrading opamps, upgrading caps, building my own isolated dc/dc power supply and really tuning it for my setup. Thatís beyond what most can do and I think an all-in-one solution like the APL is a better option for most.
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Old 05-25-2018   #34
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by GreatLaBroski View Post
Not exactly, the C-DSP 8x12 uses the ADSP21489 chip, which is the same as the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. The 2x4 HD does FIR today. I donít think itís a stretch to expect the 8x12 to do it. I do, however, have reservations about how whether or not there will be enough taps to effectively equalize / phase correct the sub-channel via FIR.

Either way you seem kind of defensive about it which isnít necessary. The APL seems like an excellent DSP, just out of my price range. I didnít go with the 8x12 myself because of the fact that the MiniDSP support / dev team is unwilling to communicate product roadmaps and I donít feel like waiting on them. I got a good deal on 3x 2x4 HDs and Iím doing Toslink into all 3. Iím a DIYíer so Iíll be upgrading opamps, upgrading caps, building my own isolated dc/dc power supply and really tuning it for my setup. Thatís beyond what most can do and I think an all-in-one solution like the APL is a better option for most.
I am not feeling as defensive as normal
I'm just trying to outline my thought process, which may help to understand whether my decision was rational. It may not be, but knowing the process allows for a better discussion of whether the solution was supported by the process, or whether the thought process was flawed. To me the thought process is likely more important, as we can arrive at some agreement.

Ideally one would have the sub channel resampled (Filter-tune-decimate) down to a lower rate... So something like 48k or 96k resampled down to something like 2k samples/second for the sub-channel... which supports a Nyquist of 1k. Then 1k taps is plenty, and 129 or 257 taps would be good too... unless one actually wants the sub to get in the hundreds of Hz range, which one may want in a home setting or some front sub arrangement?? (It would probably be rare, but maybe a horn set up with subs going to 300 Hz would justify it??)

I basically looked at multiple (3) 2x4s and thought, "self, just get a single unit". Which was the APL or the 88A.

I don't think there is bad choice here, but I did decide to trade $ for better perceived support and time savings, and less complexity than multiple MiniDSPs.

Whether that makes sense or not we will see when the unit gets here, and how well the whole thing works in a system.

So I welcome your thoughts... (whether I seem defensive or not.)
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Old 05-25-2018   #35
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

GreatLaBroski, Iím really curious about the mods you planned, but Iím sure youíll let us know.

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Old 05-25-2018   #36
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
I am not feeling as defensive as normal
I'm just trying to outline my thought process, which may help to understand whether my decision was rational. It may not be, but knowing the process allows for a better discussion of whether the solution was supported by the process, or whether the thought process was flawed. To me the thought process is likely more important, as we can arrive at some agreement.
Totally reasonable, I'm sorry for reading too much into your last post and accusing you of being defensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
Ideally one would have the sub channel resampled (Filter-tune-decimate) down to a lower rate... So something like 48k or 96k resampled down to something like 2k samples/second for the sub-channel... which supports a Nyquist of 1k. Then 1k taps is plenty, and 129 or 257 taps would be good too... unless one actually wants the sub to get in the hundreds of Hz range, which one may want in a home setting or some front sub arrangement?? (It would probably be rare, but maybe a horn set up with subs going to 300 Hz would justify it??)

I basically looked at multiple (3) 2x4s and thought, "self, just get a single unit". Which was the APL or the 88A.

I don't think there is bad choice here, but I did decide to trade $ for better perceived support and time savings, and less complexity than multiple MiniDSPs.

Whether that makes sense or not we will see when the unit gets here, and how well the whole thing works in a system.

So I welcome your thoughts... (whether I seem defensive or not.)
I think you made the right choice. If I was strictly looking to use a DSP, I'd avoid running multiple smaller DSP units. I'm just looking for a project. Since I was able to get the MiniDSPs for a little bit over $100 each, it actually enabled me to feel okay with modding them (and potentially blowing up a board if things go horribly wrong).

Also in my case I'm going to be using a stock-headunit-to-toslink adapter which will retain volume control in the headunit and output a digital signal. That digital signal goes to a splitter which splits it into 3 connections which goes to the MiniDSPs. If I was using RCA's out from my headunit or from a high/low level converter then that whole setup wouldn't make much sense as I'd be passing the signal through too many different devices and hurting signal integrity. Digital won't have that same problem.

The last component is the selecting of which preset for the DSP. I'll use an arduino and 3d print a set of 4 switches to help facilitate the communication of which preset is being used and send it to the 3 DSPs.

Between the MiniDSPs, the cost of the upgrade opamps and parts, and the arduino, I'm still below $500. And that gets me 3x the processing power of the 8x12 C-DSP, plus I expect higher sound quality after the mods. This comes with the price of a heck of a lot more hassle and engineering. Plus if I wasn't doing volume over toslink, I'd need to also make a volume controller. But that stuff is for fun, for me at least. But I probably wouldn't have gone this route if MiniDSP had equipped their 8x12 with FIR out of the box. There's also another DSP coming to market later this year, if they can release it on time, which should be really really promising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
GreatLaBroski, Iím really curious about the mods you planned, but Iím sure youíll let us know.
I'll do a build thread for it. I'll definitely be A/B testing them since I have 3, but I'm trying to figure out a way to non-subjectively measure the results.

That shouldn't be a big deal, but I know it's been a major point of contention with this forum, relating to amplifiers. Some believe that amplifiers all sound the same. Yet it's pretty well established that opamps sound different. For those who disagree, go on hifi forums and try saying that to them. They do and I've heard the differences. It's kind of what timbre is to speakers, except for solid state chips. Timbre isn't able to be expressed with waterfall charts and frequency graphs. Since different amps use different opamps and circuit architectures shouldn't it be that it's possible that different amps sound different? Anyways, I shouldn't even start that discussion here seeing how prior threads have gone.

As a quick rundown of what I'm doing, I'm planning on:

Replacing the JRC2068 opamps with AD8599 opamps
Replacing the output DC filtering caps with Silmic II audio 100uf 6.3v caps (expecting it to improve bass attack and depth)
Upgrading the two clock oscillators with higher quality crystals (might skip this since I should have nice power)
Upgrading the linear voltage regulator to it's bigger brother with 2x output capabilities
Adding Panasonic ECWFE 1uf film capacitors to the new opamps as bypass caps.
I may also upgrade the SMT 1000uf power supply cap with something bigger since it seems to get warm, but I'll need to find a replacement that fits.
I'm going to make a DC/DC isolated power supply for the 3 MiniDSPs using a Cincon EC4SBW-24S12 20 integrated DC/DC converter module to provide clean isolated power.
All in all, I'm expecting these mods to make a pretty big improvement in sound quality, not that it's bad now.

I have all class G/H amps too, and I'm considering recapping and upgrading the opamps on them too, even though 2 of them are NIB. They are using JRC 5532's which really aren't that bad though.

Anyways, sorry for getting off track OP. I'd love to hear some more subjective impressions of the APL DSP. It's a beauty. Same goes for you Holmz, when you get yours I'd love to see you do a thread on it and get some in-depth feedback on it.
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Old 05-26-2018   #37
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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I am not sure how many people need to say FIR is a waste of my time, before we all agree that it seems that I am just too set in my ways.
I'm very impressed by FIR filtering to say the least. The things you can do with it far outshines any traditional IIR-type filters. I would never go back to a traditional DSP-setup nowadays.

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Old 05-26-2018   #38
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by GreatLaBroski View Post
Not exactly, the C-DSP 8x12 uses the ADSP21489 chip, which is the same as the MiniDSP 2x4 HD. The 2x4 HD does FIR today. I donít think itís a stretch to expect the 8x12 to do it. I do, however, have reservations about how whether or not there will be enough taps to effectively equalize / phase correct the sub-channel via FIR.

Either way you seem kind of defensive about it which isnít necessary. The APL seems like an excellent DSP, just out of my price range. I didnít go with the 8x12 myself because of the fact that the MiniDSP support / dev team is unwilling to communicate product roadmaps and I donít feel like waiting on them. I got a good deal on 3x 2x4 HDs and Iím doing Toslink into all 3. Iím a DIYíer so Iíll be upgrading opamps, upgrading caps, building my own isolated dc/dc power supply and really tuning it for my setup. Thatís beyond what most can do and I think an all-in-one solution like the APL is a better option for most.
The 2x4 HD got very limited FIR capabilities. At least for lower frequencies with 2048taps in total. It's like 11Hz resolution at 48kHz (unless it allows for lower sampling that is). It's usable with midrange/tweeters but pretty unusable with anythings lower than that. It's in the modal range you want the added resolution that high amount of taps give you. I remember I looked at this and passed on this DSP for that reason.

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Old 05-26-2018   #39
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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The 2x4 HD got very limited FIR capabilities. At least for lower frequencies with 2048taps in total. It's like 11Hz resolution at 48kHz. It's usable with midrange/tweeters but pretty unusable with anythings lower than that. It's in the modal range you want the added resolution that high amount of taps give you. I remember I looked at this and passed on this DSP for that reason.
It can do about 4096 on a single channel if you reassign taps from unused channels. Iím splitting my DSPs into (Front Left Midbass/Mid/High) / (Front Right Midbass/Mid/High) / (Subwoofer / Rear Fill L/R).

I can move rear fill to the other DSPs if I really need all 4096, but that should be enough.
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Old 05-26-2018   #40
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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It can do about 4096 on a single channel if you reassign taps from unused channels. Iím splitting my DSPs into (Front Left Midbass/Mid/High) / (Front Right Midbass/Mid/High) / (Subwoofer / Rear Fill L/R).

I can move rear fill to the other DSPs if I really need all 4096, but that should be enough.
I know a bit about DSP... so I know that you would be better off sampling the sub channel at the lowest rate, or resampling it down to a low rate. You can goggle multirate processing or resampling if that helps to get a handle on it...

Then at a 2k sample rate you get FFT bins can be 1-Hz apart and you have reduced the processing load as the bins are few and the sample rate is low. And 2k is about 10x what you really need with an 80-100 Hz sub bandwidth.

Or you use a $hit load of bins at a high sample rate... Both yeild exactly the same output, but I am not sure that resampling is feasible in these DSPs.
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Old 05-26-2018   #41
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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I'm very impressed by FIR filtering to say the least. The things you can do with it far outshines any traditional IIR-type filters. I would never go back to a traditional DSP-setup nowadays.
Brother,

Symmetric FIR filters are nice (and sort of causal in the mathematic sense), but the concept of asymmetric filters and group delay decolouring means that one can pretty much correct everything except for perhaps the impulse response of the speaker. One can get the output of the speaker to be much closer to the input signal.

So I figured why start with an IIR DSP(?)... when I can enter in with a FIR based DSP(?). It seemed to be more towards being on the best (leading) edge of technology. One can do this on a computer, but Raimonds is doing it on an imbedded ASIC chip or something like that. I support that R&D and hence I got his product. Hopefully it has enough of a following to stay supported and in-production. It seems from the specs to be pretty special. Over time the approach should be common place, as it is technologically optimal.
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Old 05-26-2018   #42
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Totally reasonable, I'm sorry for reading too much into your last post and accusing you of being defensive.



I think you made the right choice. If I was strictly looking to use a DSP, I'd avoid running multiple smaller DSP units. I'm just looking for a project. Since I was able to get the MiniDSPs for a little bit over $100 each, it actually enabled me to feel okay with modding them (and potentially blowing up a board if things go horribly wrong).

Also in my case I'm going to be using a stock-headunit-to-toslink adapter which will retain volume control in the headunit and output a digital signal. That digital signal goes to a splitter which splits it into 3 connections which goes to the MiniDSPs. If I was using RCA's out from my headunit or from a high/low level converter then that whole setup wouldn't make much sense as I'd be passing the signal through too many different devices and hurting signal integrity. Digital won't have that same problem.

The last component is the selecting of which preset for the DSP. I'll use an arduino and 3d print a set of 4 switches to help facilitate the communication of which preset is being used and send it to the 3 DSPs.

Between the MiniDSPs, the cost of the upgrade opamps and parts, and the arduino, I'm still below $500. And that gets me 3x the processing power of the 8x12 C-DSP, plus I expect higher sound quality after the mods. This comes with the price of a heck of a lot more hassle and engineering. Plus if I wasn't doing volume over toslink, I'd need to also make a volume controller. But that stuff is for fun, for me at least. But I probably wouldn't have gone this route if MiniDSP had equipped their 8x12 with FIR out of the box. There's also another DSP coming to market later this year, if they can release it on time, which should be really really promising.



I'll do a build thread for it. I'll definitely be A/B testing them since I have 3, but I'm trying to figure out a way to non-subjectively measure the results.

That shouldn't be a big deal, but I know it's been a major point of contention with this forum, relating to amplifiers. Some believe that amplifiers all sound the same. Yet it's pretty well established that opamps sound different. For those who disagree, go on hifi forums and try saying that to them. They do and I've heard the differences. It's kind of what timbre is to speakers, except for solid state chips. Timbre isn't able to be expressed with waterfall charts and frequency graphs. Since different amps use different opamps and circuit architectures shouldn't it be that it's possible that different amps sound different? Anyways, I shouldn't even start that discussion here seeing how prior threads have gone.

As a quick rundown of what I'm doing, I'm planning on:

Replacing the JRC2068 opamps with AD8599 opamps
Replacing the output DC filtering caps with Silmic II audio 100uf 6.3v caps (expecting it to improve bass attack and depth)
Upgrading the two clock oscillators with higher quality crystals (might skip this since I should have nice power)
Upgrading the linear voltage regulator to it's bigger brother with 2x output capabilities
Adding Panasonic ECWFE 1uf film capacitors to the new opamps as bypass caps.
I may also upgrade the SMT 1000uf power supply cap with something bigger since it seems to get warm, but I'll need to find a replacement that fits.
I'm going to make a DC/DC isolated power supply for the 3 MiniDSPs using a Cincon EC4SBW-24S12 20 integrated DC/DC converter module to provide clean isolated power.
All in all, I'm expecting these mods to make a pretty big improvement in sound quality, not that it's bad now.

I have all class G/H amps too, and I'm considering recapping and upgrading the opamps on them too, even though 2 of them are NIB. They are using JRC 5532's which really aren't that bad though.

Anyways, sorry for getting off track OP. I'd love to hear some more subjective impressions of the APL DSP. It's a beauty. Same goes for you Holmz, when you get yours I'd love to see you do a thread on it and get some in-depth feedback on it.
Very cool, I donít know much about all this but Iím curious, as my 2x8 with better components definitely sounds better than previous ones.
Thereís also the new mini shd for soon I hope, not much infos yet. But I donít want to derail too much

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Old 05-26-2018   #43
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Over time the approach should be common place, as it is technologically optimal.
Not sure. It is a hard task to predict future development of the market on the technological basis. VHS was not the best in its time, but became a winner anyway.
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Old 06-12-2018   #44
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

I like how these can be ordered a la carte with some different options.


Is there any way the manual can be posted here so that I can take a look at it? I'm an APL1 owner now and of course very interested in this unit. I could potentially ditch my current DSP and use this as my single solution.


Also, regarding the output delay...I know Hanatsu you had mentioned it does 45ms delay. The software allows you to input up to 100ms. Is the limit actually 45ms or 100ms? That's a nice improvement over most available dsp's.


And also, what is the output voltage on the RCA outs?




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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
I like how these can be ordered a la carte with some different options.


Is there any way the manual can be posted here so that I can take a look at it? I'm an APL1 owner now and of course very interested in this unit. I could potentially ditch my current DSP and use this as my single solution.


Also, regarding the output delay...I know Hanatsu you had mentioned it does 45ms delay. The software allows you to input up to 100ms. Is the limit actually 45ms or 100ms? That's a nice improvement over most available dsp's.


And also, what is the output voltage on the RCA outs?




Thanks!

more importantly whats the input voltage

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Old 06-12-2018   #46
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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more importantly whats the input voltage
APL1012 has "-10dBV" and "+4dBu" input and output levels which is about 2.5 and 8 Volts.
The output voltage must be devided by two in unbalanced mode.

That is from an email I got from Raimonds.
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

I too have been in contact with Raimonds. I look forward to getting my processor from here. Possibly...This or a DBX solution.

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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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I too have been in contact with Raimonds. I look forward to getting my processor from here. Possibly...This or a DBX solution.
dBx processors are junk. Very light on features and most of them have 6 outputs or less.

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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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more importantly whats the input voltage
Specifications (different versions mentioned here, some specs are common with all versions though)

Inputs

2 x RCA balanced, ď-10dBVĒ ď+4dBuĒ levels, 7 kOhm impedance
1 x Coax S/PDIF (up to 96 kHz)
1 x Optical TOSLINK (up to 96 kHz)
1 x USB HD audio (up to 192 kHz)
1 x Remote In
1x USB configuration in

Outputs
10 x RCA, 4V output voltage (half of ď+4dBuĒ), 8V in balanced mode
1 x Remote Out

Operating bandwidth
24 kHz for 48 kHz Sample Rate version unit
48 kHz for 96 kHz Sample Rate version unit

DSP resolution
Unlimited FPGA processing

DSP type
FPGA + Audio signal processor

Signal converters
Cirrus Logic CS4385 CS4272

Signal-to-noise ratio digital input
117 dBA

Signal-to-noise ratio analog input
114 dBA

Total harmonic distortion analog input
0.0003% at 1 kHz at -15dBFS
0.002% at 1 kHz at -0.1dBFS

Crossover / Equalizer
Unlimited options offered by APL Workshop and APL C5 programs

Configuration
APL C5 program

Memory
11 preset memory recalled by 16 position remote switch
Auto restart of DSP
watch dog served restart in case of DSP fault

Time alignment
0 Ė 85 ms
0 Ė 28 m
Step 0.02 ms(48 kHz SR) 0.01 ms (96 kHz SR)

Protection
ďMusicalĒ output level limiters at all outputs allowing using loudspeakers at they full power with 10 times peak levels untouched


Crosstalk
>90 dB

Operating voltage:
7.1V Ė 15.7V

Current drawn , power on
500 mA for 48 kHz SR version, 12V power supply
550 mA for 96 kHz SR version, 12V power supply

Current drawn , power off
1.5 mA

Max remote output current 50 mA

Remote IN voltage 7.5 ų 15 VDC (1mA)

Fuse
2A PPTC Resettable Fuse


Dimensions (H x W x D)
36 x 270 x 200 mm
1.42 x 10.63 x 7.87 ď

Weight
1.618 kg

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Old 06-12-2018   #50
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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1 x USB HD audio (up to 192 kHz)
Whaaaaaaaat?!

Does this mean I can plug my iPhone directly into it?

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