APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review - Page 5 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 07-23-2018   #101
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by an.vamv View Post
Holmz,
I use APL’s USB audio input for sending digital audio up to 192Khz/24bit over USB from my Raspberry Pi3 .
The RPi3 is placed in the trunk powered by a 12-5V DC-DC regulator . I have attached an SSD and a 128GB flash disc to it . I have installed Volumio which is a free Linux based operating system tuned exclusively for music playback. The RPi3 becomes a headless digital audio player which is controlled over Wi-Fi from my android mobile phone or my android Dashboard Multimedia System.
I would suggest for better quality to send direct digital audio to APL instead of going into your head unit’s digital in and then from its RCA output to APL, as like this you have one DA-AD conversion less . In case your APL does not have USB input there are SPDIF output piggyback boards in the market for Raspberry which you can use to send direct coax digital to APL.

For car, do you recommend the Rasberry Pi over the Volumio Mini86?

https://volumio.org/product/volumio-mini86/

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Old 07-23-2018   #102
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

I'd go with an AppleTV (if you got an Apple phone or iPod) to feed the APL via wifi. Probably my next project.

A 7" touchscreen combined with a Raspberry Pi or something would be pretty cool as well. Digital audio is great for car audio in several ways...

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Old 07-23-2018   #103
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Good info above, thanks.

I haven't tried these myself, but from my research, if you will be using an add-on DAC/SPDIF output board with the Raspberry Pi3, I've read from guys who are using them in very Hi-End home systems that the available DAC/SPDIF output boards are "okay" but not great compared to their other stand-alone units (which of course are many times more expensive, so theirs that).

But if you're going straight into the APL USB input, it's a non-issue.
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Old 07-23-2018   #104
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I'd go with an AppleTV (if you got an Apple phone or iPod) to feed the APL via wifi. Probably my next project.

A 7" touchscreen combined with a Raspberry Pi or something would be pretty cool as well. Digital audio is great for car audio in several ways...

Yes, I have all Apple stuff and would certainly prefer to stay within their ecosystem, but do you think AirPlay is robust enough for in-car use? I sometimes have issues with it in my house, and my Apple TV is hardwired via ethernet to my router.

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Old 07-23-2018   #105
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Air play is wireless streming which may degrade the signal. Same with bluetooth.

I have been using use home media players with digital optical out since a decade for direct digital signal to DSP. I have used them to bitstream multichannel signals also...dts- dobly 5.1 in car.

Now I have Popcorn Hour A500. It has both optical and coaxial out. I think both optical and coaxial work simultaneously. I control it with an app on my android phone. You don't need a screen for display. Files can be browsed over phone and played. Works fine. Boot time is around 30-45 seconds.

Cons: I have to turn on my phone's wifi hotspot every time I sit in the car. IOS app not available.









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Old 07-23-2018   #106
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Airplay is not compressing audio, it's WiFi:

Quote:
What is the audio quality for this type of transmission?
In contrast to Bluetooth connections, which sometimes lead to downsampling and loss of quality, AirPlay is transmitting “CD quality” audio (16bit / 44.1kHz). This can easily be verified with the Audio Midi Setup tool that is located in the Utilities folder in your app directory.

For streaming content Apple is using the in-house Apple Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC). Here data density is permitted for up to 120 megabit per second. No matter what format the audio originally coded, your Mac or iOS gadget will turn it into a lossless audio stream. Only so-called “Hi-Res” Audio formats used by pros and audiophiles with higher resolution (e.g. 24 Bit / 192kHz) will be down-sampled to 16 Bit / 44.1kHz.

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Old 07-23-2018   #107
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Yes, I have all Apple stuff and would certainly prefer to stay within their ecosystem, but do you think AirPlay is robust enough for in-car use? I sometimes have issues with it in my house, and my Apple TV is hardwired via ethernet to my router.
No idea, no experience with the Airplay. It looks a little bulky judging from the pictures.

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Old 07-24-2018   #108
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

The player needs to work in a 4 wheel drive. So it needs to be a bit rugged.
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Old 07-24-2018   #109
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

How is volume controlled when using the HD USB Input?

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Old 07-24-2018   #110
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Let's say you have the APL1012, and you have tuned it.

You get in the car and decide that the time alignment is a little off and you want to adjust it. Can the delays be adjusted in real-time while listening to the system? Or is the process a trial and error situation where you enter different delay numbers, and then have to listen and see if they improve the tune?

That's one thing I like about the Helix, is I can sit and listen while adjusting delay groups.

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Old 07-24-2018   #111
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Let's say you have the APL1012, and you have tuned it.



You get in the car and decide that the time alignment is a little off and you want to adjust it. Can the delays be adjusted in real-time while listening to the system? Or is the process a trial and error situation where you enter different delay numbers, and then have to listen and see if they improve the tune?



That's one thing I like about the Helix, is I can sit and listen while adjusting delay groups.


You can set delays while the system is on like any other DSP. Gotta do it from C5 software though.

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Old 07-24-2018   #112
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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For car, do you recommend the Rasberry Pi over the Volumio Mini86?
subterFUSE , for car i have tested Volumio on three platforms: Raspberry RPi3, Asus Tinkerboard and Sparky but not mini86 so i can not comment about it. These three platforms are compact and are powered with 5V. The solution offered by Volumio with their mini86 is much bulkier and needs 12V so it might be trickier to get constant voltage regulation from the car's battery. From my tests , I liked the sound of ASUS Tinkerboard better but it had problems working with my Helix DSP HEC HD Audio USB card(that i had back then) plus its processor produced much more heat and needed good cooling. Sparky has more pronounced bass but i consider the sound of the Rpi3 more balanced. However the most decisive factor was the extensive support the RPi3 platform has from millions of users and the number of applications and add-on boards that one can find. Another problem one has to tackle is how to safely shut down the platform of his choice. If the power is suddenly cut off from the battery when switching off engine this is not a safe shut down, it is like switching off your PC suddenly by pulling the plug and this eventually might corrupt the OS that is installed on the SD card.For RPi3 platform there are some UPS add on boards that once they detect power cut off they automatically switch to battery power and execute a shut down command for safe shut down . Last but not least RPi3 is the cheapest of them all.
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Old 07-24-2018   #113
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
How is volume controlled when using the HD USB Input?
By using the volume pot that Raimonds sends with the APL unit . He dispatches the unit with four pots : volume, sub volume, balance and presets as well as a ribbon cable that connects all these pots to the APL unit.
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Old 07-24-2018   #114
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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The player needs to work in a 4 wheel drive. So it needs to be a bit rugged.
Holmz, I have been having my RPi3 player for over a year in a sports car with stiff suspension and under very hot temperatures during the summer with over 50-55 Degrees Celcius inside my trunk and no external ventilation. I have not had any problem so i consider it rugged enough.
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Old 07-25-2018   #115
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by an.vamv View Post
Holmz,
I use APL’s USB audio input for sending digital audio up to 192Khz/24bit over USB from my Raspberry Pi3 .
The RPi3 is placed in the trunk powered by a 12-5V DC-DC regulator . I have attached an SSD and a 128GB flash disc to it . I have installed Volumio which is a free Linux based operating system tuned exclusively for music playback. The RPi3 becomes a headless digital audio player which is controlled over Wi-Fi from my android mobile phone or my android Dashboard Multimedia System.
I would suggest for better quality to send direct digital audio to APL instead of going into your head unit’s digital in and then from its RCA output to APL, as like this you have one DA-AD conversion less . In case your APL does not have USB input there are SPDIF output piggyback boards in the market for Raspberry which you can use to send direct coax digital to APL.
Ok thanks... I will see if that works with an iPad as the controller.
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Old 07-31-2018   #116
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

I am about to order one of these.

Should I get the 48 kHz or 96 kHz model?


My source will be the Sony RSXGS9 head unit via analog RCA cables.

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Old 08-01-2018   #117
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
I am about to order one of these.

Should I get the 48 kHz or 96 kHz model?


My source will be the Sony RSXGS9 head unit via analog RCA cables.
My reasoning for the 48kHz was:
1) I doubt I hear well up high
2) I doubt that the filter banks are long enough to work well for a subwoofer.

Of course searching for the truth would be best.
Raimonds should be the one to opine on the matter.
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Old 08-01-2018   #118
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

So less taps at 96 kHz?

Is it half the taps?

4096 seems to be a bare minimum number of taps for any chance of EQ in the sub range. More would be better.

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Old 08-01-2018   #119
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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So less taps at 96 kHz?

Is it half the taps?

4096 seems to be a bare minimum number of taps for any chance of EQ in the sub range. More would be better.
Same number of taps, so it is more like the bin's frequency width at 96k is twice as wide as the bin's width at 48k. (I would need to break out the book, but I a man pretty sure it is conceptually correct.)

The ideal (I think) would be to resample the sub channel to 1 or 2 k-samples/sec and then use 128 bins (or something on that order).

In any case I figured 48k was enough for me.
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Old 08-01-2018   #120
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

So at 96 kHz you need 2 times as many taps for the same frequency resolution at 48 kHz?

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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
So at 96 kHz you need 2 times as many taps for the same frequency resolution at 48 kHz?
I'd have to crack open the books.

But I am pretty sure that for an identical filter response, the higher sample rate will need twice the number of taps.

Whether this is a problem, is only manifested as one approaches DC.
Which as where people generally also have the most issues with group delay as wild ported boxes are used... and where the ears have least amount of sensitivity to group delay.

Basically I am saying that do not know the answer, but these were my general thoughts.

If I was you and wanted some facts, I would suggest input from Raimonds is probably a good to get.
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Old 08-02-2018   #122
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
So at 96 kHz you need 2 times as many taps for the same frequency resolution at 48 kHz?
Quote:
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I'd have to crack open the books.

But I am pretty sure that for an identical filter response, the higher sample rate will need twice the number of taps.
.
Hi, yes it is so!

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Old 08-03-2018   #123
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Hi, yes it is so!


So does this mean the 96 kHz version has the same number of taps as the 48 kHz version?

So the 48 kHz version can process deeper bass?


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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
...
So the 48 kHz version can process deeper bass?
I believe the answer is not exactly "it is so"...

But rather that if the group delay is wildly swinging, then the frequency bins are closer, so it better follows with a finer/smaller "frequency (bin) resolution".

So maybe not deaper, but better when the group delay is wild...(?)


I could imagine that someone wanting 96k and also using a sealed box or IB, in a home setting, and if using hi-def digital, or old school LPs... then 96k might make more sense.

And I could also imagine someone with a ported box using 48k in either a home or car. Particularly if they use CDs that have a 22kHz bandwidth, which is less than the 24kHz that a 48k-samples/sec DSP yields.
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Old 08-03-2018   #125
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
So does this mean the 96 kHz version has the same number of taps as the 48 kHz version?

So the 48 kHz version can process deeper bass?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is not about deeps. All the bass will be processed in high quality
It is about "sharpness" of details on equalizer`s curve in very very low frequency range.
They will be slightly smoothed when you will be close to limits.
Some tips should be used in Workshop to achieve all the sharpness available from particular number of taps/coefficients.

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