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Old 08-03-2018   #126
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Raimonds View Post
It is not about deeps. All the bass will be processed in high quality
It is about "sharpness" of details on equalizer`s curve in very very low frequency range.
They will be slightly smoothed when you will be close to limits.
Some tips should be used in Workshop to achieve all the sharpness available from particular number of taps/coefficients.
Now would we need a line driver as the Rasp-Pi has such a low output voltage? I know whenever I had CARPC in past a line driver was necessary! Are class d amps that much more efficient in converting the heat (energy) into power?
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Old 08-03-2018   #127
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Now would we need a line driver as the Rasp-Pi has such a low output voltage? I know whenever I had CARPC in past a line driver was necessary! Are class d amps that much more efficient in converting the heat (energy) into power?
APL1012 has sufficient gain (-10dBV mode) to work even with low signal level sources. You should not need additional line driver.
But it is highly advisable to use a digital signal path from source to APL1012.

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Old 08-04-2018   #128
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

My system that I am building will use the Sony RSXGS9 as the source. This means I need to use the analog RCA outputs from the source.

Does the APL1012 have adjustable input gain?

Why is digital preferred?

The Sony RSXGS9 has an optical out but it is lower quality than the analog out, and the digital output has no volume control. It is 0 dB FS always. No headroom for processing.


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Old 08-04-2018   #129
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Does the APL1012 have adjustable input gain?
I'm curious about this, too.

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Old 08-04-2018   #130
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

This thing is incredibly cool but unfortunately, due to the complicated tuning process and price. Im not sure how many people can actually afford/have the know how to use this.

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Old 08-04-2018   #131
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Technically you can set gain in the input EQ file from workshop.

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Old 08-04-2018   #132
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
This thing is incredibly cool but unfortunately, due to the complicated tuning process and price. Im not sure how many people can actually afford/have the know how to use this.
...
With all I have read about the woes of most DSP tuning attempts, and with Jazzi and Skizer guides being praised as a golden light... it seems like "the know how" does not come naturally.

Unfortunatly I will not be able to tell how complicatied it is, in comparison to any other DSP.
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Old 08-04-2018   #133
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
This thing is incredibly cool but unfortunately, due to the complicated tuning process and price. Im not sure how many people can actually afford/have the know how to use this.

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Let's say you're new to tuning audio systems, I'd say this is in fact easier than a conventional DSP (not counting those auto setup ones).

The EQ process is automated and very accurate. Delay values are shown directly in TDA and no need to fiddle around with asymmetrical crossover settings etc. Since crossover settings are applied with the EQ filter it sort of "thinks for you".

The DSP in a system are among the most vital parts for a great SQ system and if you got the money - it's definitely worth it. You get really powerful software combined with a really nice FIR-based hardware unit.

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Old 08-04-2018   #134
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
With all I have read about the woes of most DSP tuning attempts, and with Jazzi and Skizer guides being praised as a golden light... it seems like "the know how" does not come naturally.

Unfortunatly I will not be able to tell how complicatied it is, in comparison to any other DSP.
Mastering the setup part of a conventional DSP can be complicated. You absolutely need to know how to measure properly, average results, re-measure with speakers playing together etc. In the very least it's more time consuming. I honestly setup the APL 1012 in perhaps 20-30min with good results the first time I used it and I had never used the software until that time. (I just used my old T/A values though).

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Old 08-04-2018   #135
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Mastering the setup part of a conventional DSP can be complicated. You absolutely need to know how to measure properly, average results, re-measure with speakers playing together etc. In the very least it's more time consuming. I honestly setup the APL 1012 in perhaps 20-30min with good results the first time I used it and I had never used the software until that time. (I just used my old T/A values though).
I am still working through getting parallels up and running on OSX, but I might switch to Fusion.

In any case I do not have the mic yet.

What do you recommend for the measurements Hanatsu?
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Old 08-04-2018   #136
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

So I have the APL1, and I always have to use a basic USB mic with Workshop.

For some reason, I have a hard time getting workshop to work with my ASIO soundcard.


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Old 08-04-2018   #137
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
I am still working through getting parallels up and running on OSX, but I might switch to Fusion.

In any case I do not have the mic yet.

What do you recommend for the measurements Hanatsu?
I don't trust USB mics, from what I've seen some have noise issues related to the actual USB interface. The ECM8000 is popular. Requires a calibration though. I use a Sonarworks XREF20 now, it came with a cal file - although Raimonds calibrated it for me so it's good for 30-40kHz or so.

MiniDSP got their UMIK, also comes with cal files, Dayton got one too but I got no experience with those.

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Old 08-04-2018   #138
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
So I have the APL1, and I always have to use a basic USB mic with Workshop.

For some reason, I have a hard time getting workshop to work with my ASIO soundcard.


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Weird, ASIO works for me. Got a Scarlett 2i2 external preamp.

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Old 08-04-2018   #139
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

I have a Tascam 1608.

I use 5 Behringer ECM8000 mics with Smaart and SysTune for my normal tuning. But since I can’t get the Tascam to work with Workshop, I use a UMIK-1 for that. Works fine.


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Old 08-04-2018   #140
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

I see the Behringer ECM8000 mic, but there must be come phantom power and then USB connector to get it into the computer...
What else do I need?

Or do I shove it into the mic input?
With some a phantom power and then Neutrik to 1/8" connector?
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Old 08-04-2018   #141
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

For quick measurements, I also use the Scarlett 2i2 mic preamp though for more extensive measurements I pull out the MOTU 1248 mic preamp.
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Old 08-04-2018   #142
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
My system that I am building will use the Sony RSXGS9 as the source. This means I need to use the analog RCA outputs from the source.

Does the APL1012 have adjustable input gain?

Why is digital preferred?

The Sony RSXGS9 has an optical out but it is lower quality than the analog out, and the digital output has no volume control. It is 0 dB FS always. No headroom for processing.
The input gain is adjustable in hardware - +4dBu, -10dBV
The Volume controle is working as gain as well. Becouse it is close to the input in the units structure.
The gain of input equalizer stage can serve this function as well (as Hanatsu mentioned).
The post crossover gain (pot on PCB) is also avilable to adjust overall gain of the system.

The digital is prefered becouse it reveals all the beauty of APL1012.
It removes two converters and pretty long (usually) cables (with respective noise)
which require advanced engineering skills to make connection right way to exploit balanced properties of it.
But, if your particular setup requires to use an analog in, you are welcome to use it.
It is almost best available.

There is no problems with full scale digital signals because the Volume control is right after the input.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
This thing is incredibly cool but unfortunately, due to the complicated tuning process and price. Im not sure how many people can actually afford/have the know how to use this.
It is time to ask your friendly car audio shop for help in that.

Regarding measurement mic and sound card.
Yes, one of my mics is ECM8000 for almost 20 years ...
It requires phatom power but no problem.
Such very small sound card serves all the needs:
https://www.thomann.de/intl/lv/the_t...d_rel_190404_0
There are lot of other mics offered.
Any of them should work, especially, if the correction file is available.

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Old 08-05-2018   #143
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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For quick measurements, I also use the Scarlett 2i2 mic preamp though for more extensive measurements I pull out the MOTU 1248 mic preamp.
Can I use the "Focusrite Scarlett Solo USB Audio Interface (2nd Gen)"?

Should the USB not work, then it looks like could also come out of the Headphone jack to a 1/2"to 3.5mm and then into the mic port on the MacBook...
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Old 08-05-2018   #144
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ifi Audio has 2 products that will tackle any computer USB port noise gremlins.

The iDefender 3.0:
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/...-idefender3-0/

The iSilencer 3.0:
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/...-isilencer3-0/
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Old 08-05-2018   #145
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
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Can I use the "Focusrite Scarlett Solo USB Audio Interface (2nd Gen)"?

Should the USB not work, then it looks like could also come out of the Headphone jack to a 1/2"to 3.5mm and then into the mic port on the MacBook...
The Scarlett Solo would work just fine. I took a quick look at the specs and they were basically the same. I bought the 2i2 because sometimes I do a hardwired loopback to compare the signal output (if analog) to the mic measurement.
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Old 08-05-2018   #146
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

So. Whats the total price on this thing to have a fully running set up? Someone said earlier $1800 euros so thats $2k and then how muxh for tda and whatever else?

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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
So. Whats the total price on this thing to have a fully running set up? Someone said earlier $1800 euros so thats $2k and then how muxh for tda and whatever else?
One could always start out with the software and see if it was to their liking?
It is more significant in cost than just sticking a toe in the water... more like the whole foot. But it could be a way to ease into it. Maybe it would also work for miniDSP FIRs?

As far as the DSP part....
I found three or four units that were FIR based.
All pass filters go a ways towards addressing phase, as well as speakers that are well behaved and crossovers that do not have wild phase excursions. However FIR based DSPs are techicnically a more straight forward and better approach than IIR based DSPs.

... whether one can actually hear the difference, is another discussion.
There are undoubtedly good IIR based systems, and also systems running no DSP. So a FIR based DSP is not exactly required.
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Old 08-05-2018   #148
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
One could always start out with the software and see if it was to their liking?
It is more significant in cost than just sticking a toe in the water... more like the whole foot. But it could be a way to ease into it. Maybe it would also work for miniDSP FIRs?

As far as the DSP part....
I found three or four units that were FIR based.
All pass filters go a ways towards addressing phase, as well as speakers that are well behaved and crossovers that do not have wild phase excursions. However FIR based DSPs are techicnically a more straight forward and better approach than IIR based DSPs.

... whether one can actually hear the difference, is another discussion.
There are undoubtedly good IIR based systems, and also systems running no DSP. So a FIR based DSP is not exactly required.
Doesn't answer the question

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Old 08-05-2018   #149
 
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Doesn't answer the question

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Message Raimonds, he's not opposed to offers. Great guy to work with!

I already had TDA, Workshop etc so I cannot speak on the price, but again, talk to Raimonds.
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Old 08-06-2018   #150
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Default Re: APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
Doesn't answer the question
If you reread it, you find it does answer a lot towards the question.
2) understanding whether there a particular issue that a FIR would work toward fixing.
1) working towards using the software, before committing to a FIR-based DSP... or with a current system.

These can be somewhat decoupled, and if the software indicates that nothing is to be gained over the current system, then spending up on a different DSP may not yield much.

As I was starting from scratch, it was an easier commitment than for someone who already has a Helix for example.

I cannot say it is a good or bad idea for anyone else unless I know what their goals and issues are, so as to determine whether it could address their needs.

These are the questions that could precede the question of whether it is the best value approach towards those meeting those needs.

(Or if your system is already stunning, then it will not make 1800 euros worth of difference, or whatever the price is... it will make no difference)
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