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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #151
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Nice, I'm excited to see the wheels turning.

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #152
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Default Re: CLD Testing

I talked with Chris again last night and he is having issues with his DIYMA account. He asked me to post a quick update.

"Except for the little finishing bits and pieces, ie latch system, the whole rig will be physically finished by next Friday."


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Old 1 Week Ago   #153
 
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Glad to see Chris is close to starting the new round of testing.
I assume Chris will be posting on here soon.
Will it be possible to send a sample or two to Chris for inclusion in the testing?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #154
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Chris hasnít been able to log in, but here is a quick status update on the test rig build as of Wednesday night.





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Old 1 Week Ago   #155
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Default Re: CLD Testing

can i make a request. maybe go for a piece of metal that has a similar resonant frequency of your typical car door?

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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
Chris hasnít been able to log in, but here is a quick status update on the test rig build as of Wednesday night.
Is that opening in front of the two speakers where the sheet metal will go?
If so, what is the size of that opening?
Does Chris have plenty of pieces of metal that size to use for testing different dampening materials?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #157
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
Is that opening in front of the two speakers where the sheet metal will go?
If so, what is the size of that opening?
Does Chris have plenty of pieces of metal that size to use for testing different dampening materials?
That opening is where the mounting plates for the metal sheets will go. There will be a MDF base plate, with a 1/4" thick steel back plate bonded and bolted to the wood piece, and a 1/4" thick steel front clamping plate. I will use a couple of different thickness sheets, as well as possibly an aluminum sheet. I may also test a wood panel (since people like to use CLD on wood thinking it works the same). I will only have one of each thickness panel, to reduce variables. It will have a steel mounting baffle, alignment pins, and will be torqued to the same level for every test.

I will also later on be able to test barriers (MLV/Lead).

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Old 1 Week Ago   #158
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Default Re: CLD Testing

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Originally Posted by rton20s View Post

Forget all of this really useful testing. Is that a full suit of plate mail armor in the background?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #159
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyquistrate View Post
Forget all of this really useful testing. Is that a full suit of plate mail armor in the background?
Haha. I wish it was legit. Its just a prop my sister n law bought for a birthday party they threw for my mother in law.

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Old 6 Days Ago   #160
 
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
That opening is where the mounting plates for the metal sheets will go. There will be a MDF base plate, with a 1/4" thick steel back plate bonded and bolted to the wood piece, and a 1/4" thick steel front clamping plate. I will use a couple of different thickness sheets, as well as possibly an aluminum sheet. I may also test a wood panel (since people like to use CLD on wood thinking it works the same). I will only have one of each thickness panel, to reduce variables. It will have a steel mounting baffle, alignment pins, and will be torqued to the same level for every test.

I will also later on be able to test barriers (MLV/Lead).
So if "one of each thickness panel" refers to the steel (or aluminum) sheet to which the acoustic material will be affixed, that means you will have to apply (i.e.: glue) each sample material being tested to that metal sheet, then remove it after the test is complete... correct?

If so, what type of adhesive would you be able/willing to use (for anything that isn't peel & stick)? e.g.: 3M 90?

What is the approx. size (width x length) of that sheet?
Based on the size of looks like roughly 14" x 18"?

I have a couple materials (which you probably have not seen before) that I would like you to test, when you have time.

Thanks again for being so determined (aka: 'stubborn') on this project!

Last edited by VP2015; 6 Days Ago at 05:16 PM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #161
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
So if "one of each thickness panel" refers to the steel (or aluminum) sheet to which the acoustic material will be affixed, that means you will have to apply (i.e.: glue) each sample material being tested to that metal sheet, then remove it after the test is complete... correct?

If so, what type of adhesive would you be able/willing to use (for anything that isn't peel & stick)? e.g.: 3M 90?

What is the approx. size (width x length) of that sheet?
Based on the size of looks like roughly 14" x 18"?

I have a couple materials (which you probably have not seen before) that I would like you to test, when you have time.

Thanks again for being so determined (aka: 'stubborn') on this project!
For the first new run of tests I'll mostly be focusing on CLD type materials. However, after those are done, I will likely get some more panels to test other materials, such as spray on materials, etc.

The total opening size is 14x17. There will be two test opening sizes, 11x11 and 12x15. This is so there is enough room to solidly clamp the material. It'll be much more clear why once I get the metal cut. I'll be sending the measurements over for that today.

The reason for the smaller 11x11 size is so that all available CLD's can have a fair 25% coverage test using a single, uncut sheet. The larger size will show why its important to use single uncut sheets whenever possible, and will show the disadvantages of some products based on their offered sizing.

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Old 5 Days Ago   #162
 
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
can i make a request. maybe go for a piece of metal that has a similar resonant frequency of your typical car door?
This brings up an important point: different sheet metal parts of any given car (or different cars) have different resonant frequencies, and different amplitudes.
Without taking some measurements [edit: of the resonances in the vehicle] before applying any dampeners, it's a shot in the dark.
This assumes the intended goal is more about reducing external noise, as opposed to getting better speaker response.

Last edited by VP2015; 5 Days Ago at 04:49 PM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #163
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Talking Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
Without taking some measurements before applying any dampeners, it's a shot in the dark
He does.

Secondly its comparing cld to cld so it doesn't matter what the resonant frequency of the panel is as long as it's in the same realm as automobile metal. Each piece of cld will be asked to dampen in the same exact scenario so you can still compare apples to apples.

Just because I have 2000+ posts doesn't mean I have learned anything.
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theslaking View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
...Without taking some measurements [edit: of the resonances in the vehicle] before applying any dampeners, it's a shot in the dark....
He does.

Secondly its comparing cld to cld so it doesn't matter what the resonant frequency of the panel is as long as it's in the same realm as automobile metal. Each piece of cld will be asked to dampen in the same exact scenario so you can still compare apples to apples.
You can compare apples to apples but the point is, every dampener has a dampening curve that peaks at a certain frequency (which varies with temperature), and every piece of sheet metal in a car a peak resonance frequency. As an example, the peak resonance frequency of a typical floorpan is not the same as a door panel.

Any given material is most effective if its peak dampening frequency coincides with the peak resonance frequency of the particular piece of sheet metal to which it is to be applied. Lower frequency resonances are typically more difficult to control, but also aren't a problem if the sheet metal doesn't resonate at those lower frequencies.

Manufacturers spend quite a bit of money conducting controlled acoustic testing to make those determinations, which enables them to apply 'just enough' dampening in the areas where it's needed to achieve the acoustics that the budget for that vehicle will allow.

While end-users can't do that, it is instructive to make test runs with several mics less than an inch away from different parts of a vehicle. Since sound amplitude diminishes greatly with distance, that provides a great deal of isolation and helps create a profile of the areas that need the most treatment, and at which frequencies.

FYI: most compact mics are omni-directional, but it's easy to make them much more directional simply by wrapping them in a tube made of 1/8" mass loaded vinyl.

PS: For more info, check this white paper:
Understanding DampingTechniques for Noise and Vibration Control

Last edited by VP2015; 5 Days Ago at 02:52 PM..
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Old 5 Days Ago   #165
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Default Re: CLD Testing

When you find anyone outside of OEMs willing to not only go to those lengths with test measurements, and actually apply enough sound treatment material (damping or otherwise) to mitigate the issues, you let us know. Even OEMs don't go that far, as they are constantly having to balance so many aspects of vehicle development (cost, comfort, weight, etc.)

As mentioned, these tests are going to provide an apples:apples comparison within the constraints of the test parameters/environment. This is far more than anyone I am aware of in the car audio community has done. Is it going to match ANY specific vehicle condition out there? No. Should it be enough data for most anyone interested in viewing and understanding the results to make a more educated/informed decision when selecting sound treatment products? Absolutely.

Also... DAMPER / DAMPING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
You can compare apples to apples but the point is, every dampener has a dampening curve that peaks at a certain frequency (which varies with temperature), and every piece of sheet metal in a car a peak resonance frequency. As an example, the peak resonance frequency of a typical floorpan is not the same as a door panel.

Any given material is most effective if its peak dampening frequency coincides with the peak resonance frequency of the particular piece of sheet metal to which it is to be applied. Lower frequency resonances are typically more difficult to control, but also aren't a problem if the sheet metal doesn't resonate at those lower frequencies.

Manufacturers spend quite a bit of money conducting controlled acoustic testing to make those determinations, which enables them to apply 'just enough' dampening in the areas where it's needed to achieve the acoustics that the budget for that vehicle will allow.

While end-users can't do that, it is instructive to make test runs with several mics less than an inch away from different parts of a vehicle. Since sound amplitude diminishes greatly with distance, that provides a great deal of isolation and helps create a profile of the areas that need the most treatment, and at which frequencies.

FYI: most compact mics are omni-directional, but it's easy to make them much more directional simply by wrapping them in a tube made of 1/8" mass loaded vinyl.

PS: For more info, check this white paper:
Understanding DampingTechniques for Noise and Vibration Control


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Old 5 Days Ago   #166
 
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
When you find anyone outside of OEMs willing to not only go to those lengths with test measurements, and actually apply enough sound treatment material (damping or otherwise) to mitigate the issues, you let us know. Even OEMs don't go that far...
Oh, yeah, OEMs absolutely do, and I've seen some of their test rigs.

As you yourself stated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
...they are constantly having to balance so many aspects of vehicle development (cost, comfort, weight, etc.),
...which sounds very similar to what I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
...which enables them to apply 'just enough' dampening in the areas where it's needed to achieve the acoustics [goal] that the budget for that vehicle will allow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
As mentioned, these tests are going to provide an apples:apples comparison within the constraints of the test parameters/environment. This is far more than anyone I am aware of in the car audio community has done. Is it going to match ANY specific vehicle condition out there? No. Should it be enough data for most anyone interested in viewing and understanding the results to make a more educated/informed decision when selecting sound treatment products? Absolutely.
I'm not criticizing the testing.
Anyone who is interested in this should be very grateful that Chris is devoting so much of his time to this effort.
It's practically the only way end-users will ever get unbiased test results about products like these.

And I also didn't come here to argue, which as it always does, ends up cluttering up a thread with non-helpful gobbly-de-gook.


But I *am* saying that if anyone wants to know how much of what material needs to be applied where, they should measure their vehicle's resonance frequencies & amplitudes at different locations before they start adding a bunch of weight in the form of foil-faced rubber sheets, which may well be the most cost-effective solution for some acoustic problems, but maybe not so cost-effective for others.

BTW:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
Also... DAMPER / DAMPING.
"A dampener is someone or something that dampens. So damper and dampener can both refer to one that deadens sound vibrations."
https://grammarist.com/usage/dampen-damper-dampener/
Anyone can use whatever terms they want, but in the most common usage, a "damper" is used to restrict airflow in a duct.
A "dampener" or "deadener" is used to reduce unwanted vibrations.

Last edited by VP2015; 3 Days Ago at 02:29 PM..
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
For the first new run of tests I'll mostly be focusing on CLD type materials. However, after those are done, I will likely get some more panels to test other materials, such as spray on materials, etc....
OK, great.
Let me know when you are ready for that.
I'll send you something to test.

FWIW, what I have in mind is actually a Constrained Layer Dampener, but it will be a lot thicker than those you're familiar with.
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Old 1 Day Ago   #168
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Default

I'm about to install a system iny car, without having to wait for the new round of testing what is the current recommendation?

Wish I would have bought more sds, as it is after my last install I only have enough to do like one door. 😔
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by dquangt View Post
I'm about to install a system iny car, without having to wait for the new round of testing what is the current recommendation?

Wish I would have bought more sds, as it is after my last install I only have enough to do like one door. 😔
https://resonixsoundsolutions.com(shilling for Sk LOL. I have small doubt his stuff will be up in the top 3 at the least)

Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition Sound Deadener

This was... 2nd or 3rd in the first round of testing.
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turb0Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dquangt View Post
I'm about to install a system iny car, without having to wait for the new round of testing what is the current recommendation?

Wish I would have bought more sds, as it is after my last install I only have enough to do like one door. 😔
https://resonixsoundsolutions.com(shilling for Sk LOL. I have small doubt his stuff will be up in the top 3 at the least)

Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition Sound Deadener

This was... 2nd or 3rd in the first round of testing.
Sounds good. I may give Resonix a try.
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Old 19 Hours Ago   #171
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
...
But I *am* saying that if anyone wants to know how much of what material needs to be applied where, they should measure ...
...
^I have to agree^, but then the question is how to measure it?
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Old 17 Hours Ago   #172
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Default Re: CLD Testing

And I'm still saying that it doesn't matter for this type of test. It's not "How cld reacts on certain panels, with certain stimulus, in certain circumstances. It's just simply how cld reacts in the exact same situation compared to another piece of cld.

I do think pointing it out for those that want to further their unwanted sound mitigation abilities is a good thing.

Just because I have 2000+ posts doesn't mean I have learned anything.
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Default Re: CLD Testing

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Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
^I have to agree^, but then the question is how to measure it?
The way I do it is described in post 164

I will mention again that the closer the mic to any given source of noise, the more it isolates that noise source. The mic mounts must isolate them from structure-borne interference. Memory foam works pretty well. Fortunately, most of small USB mics don't have much mass. I use USB mics because it makes it easier to make simultaneous measurements (8 at a time).

The other thing I left out of that post is that once you've mic'd up your vehicle, you need to make test runs over different road surfaces at different speeds. Once you do that, you'll have a pretty good characterization of the noise problem.

Also read the white paper referenced in that post. It's only 6 pages of content. It's helps most people understand how a constrained layer damper actually works (which is really the same as any other composite material, i.e.: two hard "skins" separated by a lower density core... same as a piece of ordinary foam-core poster board).

Once you do that, it becomes obvious why thicker materials have a large "leverage" advantage compared to ~2mm thick butyl, especially at lower frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theslaking View Post
And I'm still saying that it doesn't matter for this type of test. It's not "How cld reacts on certain panels, with certain stimulus, in certain circumstances. It's just simply how cld reacts in the exact same situation compared to another piece of cld.
Strictly speaking, that is true. It's also true that I have not been disagreeing with that, either. I've have not been suggesting that the new test won't be apples-to-apples. The new test will be an apples-to-apples test yielding data over a certain frequency range (20Hz - 1,100 Hz in the previous test).

But the *applicability* of that data to control a noise problem depends on how much of what to use and where.

Not all noise control problems are solved most cost-effectively by Constrained Layer Damping. And even if structural damping is required, the choice of the "best" one to use is not just which one is most effective (in absolute terms), but which one is most effective relative to cost and weight.

Given the orientation of this forum, I want to point out that my focus (and that of my advice) is overall vehicle noise reduction, rather than making powerful speakers sound better.

Last edited by VP2015; 12 Hours Ago at 10:56 AM..
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
The way I do it is described in post 164

I will mention again that the closer the mic to any given source of noise, the more it isolates that noise source. The mic mounts must isolate them from structure-borne interference. Memory foam works pretty well. Fortunately, most of small USB mics don't have much mass. I use USB mics because it makes it easier to make simultaneous measurements (8 at a time).

The other thing I left out of that post is that once you've mic'd up your vehicle, you need to make test runs over different road surfaces at different speeds. Once you do that, you'll have a pretty good characterization of the noise problem.

Also read the white paper referenced in that post. It's only 6 pages of content. It's helps most people understand how a constrained layer damper actually works (which is really the same as any other composite material, i.e.: two hard "skins" separated by a lower density core... same as a piece of ordinary foam-core poster board).

Once you do that, it becomes obvious why thicker materials have a large "leverage" advantage compared to ~2mm thick butyl, especially at lower frequencies.

While all of this is good, it is beyond the scope of most people in car audio. I would like to know how many extreme competitors actually go through this process. If you do not have the equipment up front for this, as most only have one microphone, this quickly does not become cost/time effective compared to just placing CLD that seems to be one of the top performers in a controlled test. I know if I were to do this with my one microphone, it would take me a few days longer, is that time spent really beneficial than just spending another $100 on extra CLD/MLV/CCF/Thinsulate? If I purchased 7 more microphones, now I am out $700 plus time. I could nearly double layer all of the CLD/MLV/CCF in my truck for $700.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VP2015 View Post
The way I do it is described in post 164

Strictly speaking, that is true. It's also true that I have not been disagreeing with that, either. I've have not been suggesting that the new test won't be apples-to-apples. The new test will be an apples-to-apples test yielding data over a certain frequency range (20Hz - 1,100 Hz in the previous test).

But the *applicability* of that data to control a noise problem depends on how much of what to use and where.

Not all noise control problems are solved most cost-effectively by Constrained Layer Damping. And even if structural damping is required, the choice of the "best" one to use is not just which one is most effective (in absolute terms), but which one is most effective relative to cost and weight.

Given the orientation of this forum, I want to point out that my focus (and that of my advice) is overall vehicle noise reduction, rather than making powerful speakers sound better.

I, as well as most on here, also think that this CLD test is just one part to many sound deadening steps. To achieve overall noise reduction we need to follow the CLD/MLV/CCF/Thinsulate approaches that have been established. From my understanding, CLD isn't really being used to "quiet" the vehicle, just stop panel vibrations. To quiet the vehicle we need to do the 100% MLV/Thinsulate step as well.

2014 F150 Limited -> Factory HU programmed for 4v outputs -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, SI TM65 mk3, & JL TW3. Rears: SB17's. Resonix 35% CLD and 100% CCF, 100% MLV, Soon: PDX-F6 and SI M3 in Valicar Stuttgart pods

Last edited by jdunk54nl; 10 Hours Ago at 12:28 PM..
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Default Re: CLD Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunk54nl View Post
...From my understanding, CLD isn't really being used to "quiet" the vehicle, just stop panel vibrations. To quiet the vehicle we need to do the 100% MLV/Thinsulate step as well...
What do you think vibrations propagating through the air are?

Thinsulate is not even close to being one of the most cost-effective acoustic insulations, especially not in applications where having a lot of thermal insulation is also desirable. I won't bother mentioning examples because (based on past experience) I doubt you're really interested in them anyway, because you already believe you "know" what works and what doesn't.

I use USB Clip-on Omnidirectional Condenser Microphones, which cost about $14-$15 each. It really only takes five or six, although more is better.
I guess your next complaint will be that this type of mic isn't "good enough" but in fact, the only real drawback is they are omnidirectional, which is easily changed using the method I mentioned in a previous post. The consistency is excellent because the exact same mic is used in the exact same location & orientation before & after treatment.

As I mentioned before, it always seems to turn into an argument between people like *you* who presume to know what will work best without actually having tested much, if anything, yourself, and those like me who have done that (along with more product research than you would believe). I guess that's the difference between amateur and professional. So, I'll let you get back to your previously established presumptions.

Last edited by VP2015; 9 Hours Ago at 01:43 PM..
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