4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More - Page 4 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-17-2010   #76
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Newbie
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Visayas and Seattle
Posts: 40

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 123 habagat will become famous soon enoughhabagat will become famous soon enoughhabagat will become famous soon enoughhabagat will become famous soon enoughhabagat will become famous soon enoughhabagat will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (1)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniVanMan View Post
You already know my stance on this, but I'll state it here so others know why I'm on the "stand alone" side.

One of the main things we try to do when designing a system is timbre/tonal matching between drivers. There will be several different types of midranges that will be tested. Some will mate tonally well with the Dyn woofers and tweeters, and some others won't. My concern is that the test would naturally become a test on how well the particular midrange sounds with the Dyn speakers.

It would be EXTREMELY hard to not let that affect your judgment.

So, I say test them stand alone and let them be listened to on their own merits.
x4
habagat is offline   Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-17-2010   #77
Moderator
 
Bikinpunk
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Alabama
Age: 37
Posts: 18,340

Thanks: 396
Thanked 1,510 Times in 663 Posts
Rep Power: 26023 ErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond repute

Send a message via AIM to ErinH

iTrader: (100)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

I understand… the sound characteristics I’m talking about are related to FR and the harmonics. I understand.
I just don’t know how one could show this without a klippel. The only way I know how to evaluate this is by subjectively testing the drivers. RTA could and will show FR, though... hmph...

If this was purely a technical test, then I’d agree 100% with you. But, given the following:
1. Niebur’s going to do listening tests
2. We don’t have no stinkin fancy equipment here, feller.

I don’t see really see how to avoid any ‘mind coloration’ as I will call it, in conjunction with what I’ve said above as rationale.

Time Delay Calculator:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html
ErinH is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #78
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 997

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 132 lycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikinpunk View Post
I understandÖ the sound characteristics Iím talking about are related to FR and the harmonics. I understand.
I just donít know how one could show this without a klippel. The only way I know how to evaluate this is by subjectively testing the drivers. RTA could and will show FR, though... hmph...

If this was purely a technical test, then Iíd agree 100% with you. But, given the following:
1. Nieburís going to do listening tests
2. We donít have no stinkin fancy equipment here, feller.

I donít see really see how to avoid any Ďmind colorationí as I will call it, in conjunction with what Iíve said above as rationale.
Klippel won't help you. It can do a great job of quantifying the large signal performance of drivers, but that won't help the cause of the illogical.

There's just no meaning behind timbre & tonal matching of drivers playing different frequency ranges.

How will I match tonality (frequency response) and timbre (harmonic signature) of an 93 Hz sinewave, with a 347 Hz sinewave? You have ALL the tools imaginable at your disposal ... how will you do it?

Furthermore, i humbly submit that for those who have heard "driver mismatch", what they've really heard is a poorly designed crossover between the drivers

Probably subject for another thread, but it does relate to whether or not a single-brand midbass can be used for a midrange comparison test.
lycan is offline   Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-17-2010   #79
Moderator
 
Bikinpunk
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Alabama
Age: 37
Posts: 18,340

Thanks: 396
Thanked 1,510 Times in 663 Posts
Rep Power: 26023 ErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond repute

Send a message via AIM to ErinH

iTrader: (100)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Fair enough. I see your point.
I’ll just kindly disagree and let this thread continue on. We could keep it up, but you’ve shown your points and I’ve talked about mine. Really nothing left for either of us to say. At least not in this thread.


Time Delay Calculator:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html
ErinH is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #80
DIYMA 500 Club
 
MiniVanMan's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lockport, IL
Age: 49
Posts: 2,298

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 202 MiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (23)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycan View Post
Not trying to be contrary, but this is honestly something I've never understood

What does timbre/tonal matching between drivers playing different frequency ranges really mean? I mean, what are the underlying quantitative principles? Obviously, can't be frequency response. Is it distortion? Even that doesn't make a lot of sense, over different frequency bands.

In the objective camp, where we strive for accuracy in reproduction, I just don't get what quantitative characteristics of the drivers we're trying to "match"

How do you "tonally match" drivers that are, by definition, playing separate and different "tones"? Know what I mean?

Again, not trying to be argumentative. Just looking for objective clarity.
A well damped speaker like the Dyns are going to sound very different than say a metal coned driver with a thin metal cone. I understand what you're saying about different pass bands, but you will still have summing of the two drivers at crossover points.

It's about avoiding confusing the senses around the top and bottom end of the the midrange pass band. Not a declaration of "you can't run a poly cone and metal cone together".

The ability to buy expensive equipment does NOT make you an audiophile.
MiniVanMan is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #81
DIYMA 500 Club
 
SSSnake's Avatar
 
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Huntsville
Posts: 1,486

Thanks: 8
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 170 SSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (2)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Jeff,

I agree to an extent... I have always maintained that pro sound drivers tend to have a certain dynamic capability that most home/car audio drivers can't match. I have struggled to quantify the reason for some time. The first answer I always get is sensitivity/efficiency but additional power should be able to compensate for those differences. The next answer, actually an outgrowth of the first, is power compression relsulting from the increased thermal management demands placed on the lower efficiency driver. This could be true but I can't find any data to prove this postulate or provide insights into the thermal demands on speakers playing at what I consider normal listening levels.

Now how does this relate to the "tonal or timbre" matching... IME - when I find a combination that doesn't sound "right" after I apply level matching, proper xover, and EQ the setups tend to be a mix of various efficiency drivers. One extreme example was an ID horn with B&C DE250 and Dynaudio MW 170s. The Dyns had a ton of power available and the freq response was smoothed throughout the passbands but I never could get that combination to sound "right". Swap the driver for the B&C 8NDL51 and things jelled quickly.

I realize this is all subjective (I don't much care for the typical audiophile descriptors: warm, neutral, etc but I have one that I can't get away from POP). I wish I could come up with a test/measurement that would illuminate the issue but so far I haven't seen anything.
SSSnake is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #82
Moderator
 
Bikinpunk
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Alabama
Age: 37
Posts: 18,340

Thanks: 396
Thanked 1,510 Times in 663 Posts
Rep Power: 26023 ErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond repute

Send a message via AIM to ErinH

iTrader: (100)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSSnake View Post
(I don't much care for the typical audiophile descriptors
Personally, I donít either, but itís the only way I can really ever try to relate what I mean when I describe a driver. The real problem is that we all have different ideas of what they mean. :/

Time Delay Calculator:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html
ErinH is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #83
DIYMA 500 Club
 
SSSnake's Avatar
 
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Huntsville
Posts: 1,486

Thanks: 8
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 170 SSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (2)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Personally, I donít either, but itís the only way I can really ever try to relate what I mean when I describe a driver. The real problem is that we all have different ideas of what they mean. :/
AMEN!

It is pretty true of all subjective statements. Good or bad is typically all in the eye of the beholder...
SSSnake is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #84
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Niebur3's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In car audio land
Posts: 3,316

12V Company:
High Definition Mobile Audio
Position:
Owner

Thanks: 136
Thanked 266 Times in 183 Posts
Rep Power: 340 Niebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (51)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Okay, can I throw another thought into the mix. I just talk to another friend of mine and he suggested the following as far as enclosure goes:

Get a long PVC tube, mount the speakers to a very small front baffle that attaches to the tube and fill the tube full of fiberglass insulation, with a few inches of air left behind the driver and the insulation density increasing until it is packed at the other end of the tube - a sort of transmission line.

Would this be better than a fixed enclosure? Thoughts? (please be gentle)

Also, maybe we take the top few speakers and do in car listening with those???
Niebur3 is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #85
Moderator
 
Bikinpunk
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Alabama
Age: 37
Posts: 18,340

Thanks: 396
Thanked 1,510 Times in 663 Posts
Rep Power: 26023 ErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond repute

Send a message via AIM to ErinH

iTrader: (100)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

sounds like an AP enclosure to me... in a round about way.

those are tricky and need to be tuned. Going to be hard to equate that to a specific volume for others to use in their installs.


Even if this isn't a true AP enclosure, you're still going to have problems equating the amount of airspace+insulation to a specific volume. May be able to do it, but I wouldn't know where to start.
Now, you could use the pvc tubing and cut to length to get a certain enclosure size. That makes sense. Make a baffle that will fit each length of tube. Might be easier to do this than building three different boxes.

The drivers' displacement is negligible here, imo, so I wouldn't sweat that at all.

Time Delay Calculator:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html
ErinH is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #86
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Melodic Acoustic's Avatar
 
"Authentic to the Music"
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Georgia
Age: 47
Posts: 1,940

12V Company:
Melodic Acoustic
Position:
Founder/CEO

Thanks: 9
Thanked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 194 Melodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (61)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

^^^^ very interesting Erin and SSSnake. I for one use the terms quite a bit as you guys said it is one of the ways to get your point across about a drivers sound. But warm is one a use quite a bit as it is relate to a higher level of 2nd and 3rd order distortion and are usually what forgiving drivers Sound good on about anything you through at them. Critical and Clinical are others I use quite a bite, which lean to drivers that are very detailed and not very for giving on bad recordings. Some say a overly detailed. These driver tend to have early cone brake up. The key to me hat I have found with using the Critical/Clinical drivers is your choice in amps and please don't start the all amps sound the same SH*T!!!! PLEASE!!!!! DIFFERENT DESIGN AND GOALS OF THE AMP DESIGNER TELLS US ALL AMPS DON'T SOUND THE SAME. HIGH-END OR NOT.

Here is the problem I see, is most people don't have a good reference of what a live un-amplified performance sounds live or for that matter what the recording we use are suppose to sound like according to the artist who performed it. Companies like mobile fidelity re-master music and are suppose to have a good reference of what the music is suppose to sound like and with their Audiophile test disc do there best to tell you what to listen for in each track.

Now the problem is how many people know what a real sax in the different forms is truly suppose to sound like, Yes music is subjective, but a sax is suppose to sound like a sax if the recording is at a high level. So with that said it not subjective sort of speak it just our somewhat un-educated perception of what it is suppose to sound like.

This is one reason I kind of like the EMMA CD and test CD that the master of th recording has a great idea is what in the music to listen for and can tell you what to listen for. Now at that point it is up to us to truly learn what the the instruments are suppose to sound like.

Now it no getting past being able to hear small little details in the music with a brand of drivers that you can't hear with another, also attack and the decay. Well if you do a direct replacement in the same system. To me this is what puts the gap between drivers.


Also I agree on being able to match drivers with different cone materials, I would like to think I know a little about this one as H-Audio use many different alloy in our drivers. It is truly hard to get a poly cone to blend with a metal cone drive unless the metal cone is dampen i with another material. Not saying it not possible as it is, up it is hard in the midrange to mid-bass. This is just from me testing many drivers, not only my own brand. The lower the midrange can be crossed the easier it gets to blend the opposite materials.

At that point it kind of comes down to tuning and the motor design of each driver being able to match in speed ( attach and decay). If you mid-bass is just a snail, and you midrange crossed say at 250hz has a great motor design the transition from mid-range to mid-bass will always sound off. So for me its not just cone material, its crossover points, motor design.

Sorry for the small RANT guys. And hell I may have lost my mind, So read on and flame away. It's just MHO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark Brooks
CEO/Founder
Melodic Acoustic "Authentic to the Music"
Melodic Acoustic is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #87
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Melodic Acoustic's Avatar
 
"Authentic to the Music"
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Georgia
Age: 47
Posts: 1,940

12V Company:
Melodic Acoustic
Position:
Founder/CEO

Thanks: 9
Thanked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 194 Melodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (61)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niebur3 View Post
Okay, can I throw another thought into the mix. I just talk to another friend of mine and he suggested the following as far as enclosure goes:

Get a long PVC tube, mount the speakers to a very small front baffle that attaches to the tube and fill the tube full of fiberglass insulation, with a few inches of air left behind the driver and the insulation density increasing until it is packed at the other end of the tube - a sort of transmission line.

Would this be better than a fixed enclosure? Thoughts? (please be gentle)

Also, maybe we take the top few speakers and do in car listening with those???
Here is what i do most of the. I have about 2 enclosure on is about 3 liters and I just fell it with wood peaces I made to get it down to .5, 1, and 2 liters. I have a few different size baffles for 2-4.5" divers. The next one is the what what give me an IB effect and it is about 3.5 cubic feet. That should be more the large enough for most drivers from 2-6.5" to give to effect of an IB mounting. It works very well, but it I fill it not working, I have to call my test truck over and mount them in there and when I really what to be political correct this truck is how I test the drivers as we will not know what it will truly do in the mobile environment until it is in the mobile environment.

Mark Brooks
CEO/Founder
Melodic Acoustic "Authentic to the Music"
Melodic Acoustic is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #88
Moderator
 
Bikinpunk
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Alabama
Age: 37
Posts: 18,340

Thanks: 396
Thanked 1,510 Times in 663 Posts
Rep Power: 26023 ErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond repute

Send a message via AIM to ErinH

iTrader: (100)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come View Post
^^^^ very interesting Erin and SSSnake. I for one use the terms quite a bit as you guys said it is one of the ways to get your point across about a drivers sound. But warm is one a use quite a bit as it is relate to a higher level of 2nd and 3rd order distortion and are usually what forgiving drivers Sound good on about anything you through at them. Critical and Clinical are others I use quite a bite, which lean to drivers that are very detailed and not very for giving on bad recordings. Some say a overly detailed. These driver tend to have early cone brake up..
I actually agree with this. How youíve described the sound vs. what we say it sounds like is the same way I describe what I hear. So, at least when you and I are talking weíll be on the same page. Lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come View Post
it is hard in the midrange to mid-bass. This is just from me testing many drivers, not only my own brand. The lower the midrange can be crossed the easier it gets to blend the opposite materials.

Agreed. Key here is midrange bandwidth, imo.



Oh, BTW, Iím heading to Miami right now. Hope you have your flip flops ready for a long, romantic walk on the beach.

Time Delay Calculator:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html
ErinH is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #89
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Melodic Acoustic's Avatar
 
"Authentic to the Music"
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Georgia
Age: 47
Posts: 1,940

12V Company:
Melodic Acoustic
Position:
Founder/CEO

Thanks: 9
Thanked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 194 Melodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura aboutMelodic Acoustic has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (61)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikinpunk View Post
I actually agree with this. How you’ve described the sound vs. what we say it sounds like is the same way I describe what I hear. So, at least when you and I are talking we’ll be on the same page. Lol.




Agreed. Key here is midrange bandwidth, imo.



Oh, BTW, I’m heading to Miami right now. Hope you have your flip flops ready for a long, romantic walk on the beach.

Dude your so G**, But man I thought about it for a minute, because you are sexy!!

Mark Brooks
CEO/Founder
Melodic Acoustic "Authentic to the Music"
Melodic Acoustic is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #90
Moderator
 
Bikinpunk
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Alabama
Age: 37
Posts: 18,340

Thanks: 396
Thanked 1,510 Times in 663 Posts
Rep Power: 26023 ErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond reputeErinH has a reputation beyond repute

Send a message via AIM to ErinH

iTrader: (100)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

I LOL'd at that last part.

Time Delay Calculator:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html
ErinH is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #91
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 997

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 132 lycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

well it was only a matter of time until someone brought up amplifiers sonics

Yes, i agree that damping characteristics of the drivers need to be comprehended at crossover ... no question about it. But that's where the tonality/timbre matching debate ends. If you think your drivers don't "match", look no farther than the crossover (including sensitivity, magnitude, phase ... and subsequently Q, and therefore damping).

As I said ... it's not even logical, much less possible, to "match" the harmonic distortion signature of midrange freqs to midbass freqs. Even if you want to equate "dry" or "warm" or "clinical" to a harmonic signature, you still can't "match" them over separate, distinct frequency bands. Even the exact same brand, cone material and motor won't work that magic trick for you

But it does bring a fitting end to my point on this sub-debate Matching timbre of drivers operating over different frequency bands is pretty much identical to matching "amplifier timbre" to "driver timbre". 'nuff said.
lycan is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #92
DIYMA 500 Club
 
WLDock's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Indiana
Age: 53
Posts: 2,297

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 196 WLDock will become famous soon enoughWLDock will become famous soon enoughWLDock will become famous soon enoughWLDock will become famous soon enoughWLDock will become famous soon enoughWLDock will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (26)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbno1 View Post
The PRS, F1, Exclusive Mids shipped along with the Woofer Tester 3. Should be there by Friday.
Jim
Glad to see the PRS driver in the mix. Such a nice driver and would have been a hit had they brought it over. The price would have been right when one considers the cost of Scans and the pricing of the 2010 Stage 4 drivers.
WLDock is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #93
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 997

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 132 lycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enoughlycan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by WLDock View Post
Glad to see the PRS driver in the mix. Such a nice driver and would have been a hit had they brought it over. The price would have been right when one considers the cost of Scans and the pricing of the 2010 Stage 4 drivers.
alas ... my "international intelligence community" tells me that the 4" PRS is now officially out-of-production A moment of mourning, please, for silent reflection ...

And that new Stage 4 is less than a 3" midrange No doubt designed for tiny little dash pods. I suspect the motor is equally world-class, but there's just no getting around volume displacement, if you want lower frequency midrange reproduction at "healthy" volume levels

oh well.
lycan is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #94
DIYMA 500 Club
 
quality_sound's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cannon AFB, NM/
Posts: 8,965

Thanks: 20
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 266 quality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nicequality_sound is just really nice


iTrader: (52)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

I too was disappointed by that.

quality_sound is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #95
DIYMA 500 Club
 
stereojnky's Avatar
 
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: augusta ga
Age: 47
Posts: 301

Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 147 stereojnky will become famous soon enoughstereojnky will become famous soon enoughstereojnky will become famous soon enoughstereojnky will become famous soon enoughstereojnky will become famous soon enoughstereojnky will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (17)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycan View Post
alas ... my "international intelligence community" tells me that the 4" PRS is now officially out-of-production A moment of mourning, please, for silent reflection ...

oh well.
Did anybody even have a connection, or any means of getting them, anyway?

They may as well have been made from "unobtanium" as far as I'm concerned.

Pioneer DEH-P01 (DEX-P99RS)
CMass C522, MB82,CMass UL12
Zapco DC Reference 200.2, Arc 4200SE, 2300SE
stereojnky is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #96
DIYMA 500 Club
 
MiniVanMan's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lockport, IL
Age: 49
Posts: 2,298

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 202 MiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (23)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycan View Post
Yes, i agree that damping characteristics of the drivers need to be comprehended at crossover ... no question about it. But that's where the tonality/timbre matching debate ends. If you think your drivers don't "match", look no farther than the crossover (including sensitivity, magnitude, phase ... and subsequently Q, and therefore damping).
Hence my stance, that when testing several drivers throughout a weekend, it's probably better to not have to worry about tuning around the crossover point to ensure a seamless transition between different drivers. Not saying it can't be done, just saying it'll be more headache than it's worth.

The ability to buy expensive equipment does NOT make you an audiophile.
MiniVanMan is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #97
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Knobby Digital's Avatar
 
(((((((In Stereo)))))))
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,326

Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 152 Knobby Digital will become famous soon enoughKnobby Digital will become famous soon enoughKnobby Digital will become famous soon enoughKnobby Digital will become famous soon enoughKnobby Digital will become famous soon enoughKnobby Digital will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (15)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycan View Post
There's just no meaning behind timbre & tonal matching of drivers playing different frequency ranges.

How will I match tonality (frequency response) and timbre (harmonic signature) of an 93 Hz sinewave, with a 347 Hz sinewave? You have ALL the tools imaginable at your disposal ... how will you do it?

Furthermore, i humbly submit that for those who have heard "driver mismatch", what they've really heard is a poorly designed crossover between the drivers
Not to keep this can of worms open - I know this is a terrible place for this sub-debate.

But is it fair to think that someone might want the multiple drivers in a given system to have a similar (as possible) harmonic signature since "tones" in music are swept across the ranges of multiple drivers?
Knobby Digital is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #98
DIYMA 500 Club
 
MiniVanMan's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lockport, IL
Age: 49
Posts: 2,298

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 202 MiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura aboutMiniVanMan has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (23)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knobby Digital View Post
Not to keep this can of worms open - I know this is a terrible place for this sub-debate.

But is it fair to think that someone might want the multiple drivers in a given system to have a similar (as possible) harmonic signature since "tones" in music are swept across the ranges of multiple drivers?
"Similar?", yes. "Identical?", no.

Identical is impossible as Lycan is pointing out. How much do you want to beat yourself up over it though? You could drive yourself nuts trying to determine what "similar" means.

Mostly, what you want to avoid are artifacts around the crossover points. If you have a 10 db+ difference in odd order harmonics, that might be something to avoid as well.

The ability to buy expensive equipment does NOT make you an audiophile.
MiniVanMan is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #99
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Niebur3's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In car audio land
Posts: 3,316

12V Company:
High Definition Mobile Audio
Position:
Owner

Thanks: 136
Thanked 266 Times in 183 Posts
Rep Power: 340 Niebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (51)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

I wish we had a reference speaker to use that everyone was familiar with to compare against.
Niebur3 is offline   Quick reply to this message
Old 03-17-2010   #100
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Niebur3's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In car audio land
Posts: 3,316

12V Company:
High Definition Mobile Audio
Position:
Owner

Thanks: 136
Thanked 266 Times in 183 Posts
Rep Power: 340 Niebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond reputeNiebur3 has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (51)



Default Re: 4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

what do u guys think of the top few speakers for in-car testing?
Niebur3 is offline   Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Ad Management by RedTyger

Home | User CP | Members List | New Posts | ITrader | Faq | Post Spy