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Old 05-24-2013   #1
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Default Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Hi Everyone, I am new to this forum and probably don't have very many if any posts but I am not new to car audio. I have always come here as a good resource for product reviews and SQ info but I think this is my firsty thread.

Anyways, I am about to do a full overhaul on my front stage and could use som advice and suggestions. Here is my current setup:

Alpine 9887 HU
MB Quart Q4.80
Pioneer 720PRS components running active off the HU
Sealed fiberglass door enclosures

Substage used to be 2 DC xl 18s in a c pillar wall on a DD ZSE.

My rebuild substage consists of a quasi 6th at the b-pillar for the same drivers (still in progress).

The plans for my new frontstage are as follows:

Power - (2) Crossfire BMF 600.2 amps one for mids and one for tweets
Mids - (4) Dayton RS180-4 mids, 2 per door in fiberglass pods (less than 30 degrees off axis)
Tweeters - (4) 1" Vifa titanium domes (installed in a-pillar pods on axis)( cant remember the model but I have it writen down in my notes if someone is interested. Fs is around 770 on these and I should be able to cross them as low as 1500-2k if necessary)

My goal with this setup is to be able to "keep up" with a 155db substage but still be able to get me respectable scores in IASCA SQC classes.

I am relatively confident in my choices so far except for the Dayton RS180s. I have a pair of the 8ohm versions in a pair of t-lines towers I built for music in my bedroom and I love the sound which is why I started to design around them but its always hard to know how well that will transfer to my truck.

Main concerns:

lack of midrange detail? Will they sound at least as nice/comparable to the PRS mids?
ability to handle 150rms each?
response in about .3 cubic feet sealed?

So the question is, are there any other choices out there that may be a better option? My google searches have turned me on to the ID OEM 6.5 mids and those seem perfect but most of those threads are pretty old and I imagine it would be difficult to find 4 of them today.

Sorry for the novel, I just like to get all the info out there at the start. Thanks in advance for the help!
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Old 05-24-2013   #2
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

With that kind of volume you would get much more benefit in IMO by getting just one driver and porting it.

A couple of suggestions that would work well
Peerless 830990 6-1/2" GFC Cone HDS Woofer 264-1084
Dayton Audio RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm 295-364

If you do go this route you might be able to get a more expensive driver since you would just be using one
Usher 8948A 7" Carbon Fiber/Paper Woofer 296-603
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Old 05-24-2013   #3
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

I just dont think you will EVER get a front stage to keep up with 155db sub stage, not in a car and not with any amount of SQ.

assuming that you want 6-9db more bass than midrange, which is the norm. you need nearly 150 db of front stage. even with 98db 1w/1m 8" mids, you would need 4 per side and 240 watts each just to reach 132db.

Original post whore!
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Old 05-24-2013   #4
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAAAAAA View Post
With that kind of volume you would get much more benefit in IMO by getting just one driver and porting it.

A couple of suggestions that would work well
Peerless 830990 6-1/2" GFC Cone HDS Woofer 264-1084
Dayton Audio RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm 295-364

If you do go this route you might be able to get a more expensive driver since you would just be using one
Usher 8948A 7" Carbon Fiber/Paper Woofer 296-603
I was actually just looking at a similar usher driver, they sound promising. And the HDS has peaked my curiousity as well. I am not strictly limited to the budget that the daytons represent. I have no problem paying more if the reward is worth it.

In regards to your first statement, do you mean that you think .3 cubic feet per driver is too small? hence I should just do .6 cubic feet for one driver and port it for added midbass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minbari View Post
I just dont think you will EVER get a front stage to keep up with 155db sub stage, not in a car and not with any amount of SQ.

assuming that you want 6-9db more bass than midrange, which is the norm. you need nearly 150 db of front stage. even with 98db 1w/1m 8" mids, you would need 4 per side and 240 watts each just to reach 132db.
Haha I couldnt agree more. That's why I put "keep up" in quotes. I have no desire to subject my ears to that kind of high frequency pain. 155+ at 30hz I love but theres no way i want that in my mids and highs.

The 9887 can store alot of preset settings for crossovers, levels, eq etc. SO the plan is to have setting for daily listening which would be my SQ settings with the substage turned way down to blend in. And then have settings for high volume demos. I know I cant have my cake and eat it too lol.
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Old 05-24-2013   #5
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

not to mention the fact that 155db full-range is getting close to the territory of volume that'll just straight up kill you

not to mention the amount of excursion that will be required for the "midbasses" to keep up, meaning you're going to be extremely limited in driver selection and/or disappointed in volume and have to cross the substage much higher than normal to keep excursion in check.

i don't know, this just sounds like a mess to me, but good luck nonetheless! you could try the 8" silver flute mids too, they can be crossed higher i believe and have some good reviews on the forums lately
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Old 05-24-2013   #6
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassodeo View Post
Haha I couldnt agree more. That's why I put "keep up" in quotes. I have no desire to subject my ears to that kind of high frequency pain. 155+ at 30hz I love but theres no way i want that in my mids and highs.

The 9887 can store alot of preset settings for crossovers, levels, eq etc. SO the plan is to have setting for daily listening which would be my SQ settings with the substage turned way down to blend in. And then have settings for high volume demos. I know I cant have my cake and eat it too lol.
seems like a sensible compromise. good luck

Original post whore!
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Old 05-24-2013   #7
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

You should be looking into HLCD's and pro audio midbass. This will give you a loud soundstage and if installed correctly it should sound really good.

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Old 05-24-2013   #8
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edouble101 View Post
You should be looking into HLCD's and pro audio midbass. This will give you a loud soundstage and if installed correctly it should sound really good.
x2. I have only 150watts to midbasses and 30watts to HLCDs, it sounds amazing and can get way louder than I listen to it.

Original post whore!
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Old 05-24-2013   #9
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Why not use pro audio drivers instead?? There's quite a few that are known to perform much better at upper volumes than what you're looking at. The Dayton is a SQ oriented driver. While it may have good sound, it's definitely not a output monster and will require heavy eq'ing to get above normal use.

Pro audio mids can actually take a small ported enclosure better than some of the other drivers mentioned and have more output as well.
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Old 05-24-2013   #10
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

WoW!! I guess we were all heading in the same direction at the same time.
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Old 05-24-2013   #11
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

THESE


95db1/1
nice and loud....
4 of them should SCREAM
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Old 05-24-2013   #12
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Guys pro audio drivers don't play low and need very large enclosures.I don't think they make any sense.

And yes I think .3 might be a bit to small for those daytons... They need a bit over .4 so they need 33% more volume. Seems like ported would yeild better results IMO.
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Old 05-24-2013   #13
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Thanks for all the input guys! I want to bump this though...should have stated it better in my first post

[QUOTE=minbari;1893468]Haha I couldnt agree more. That's why I put "keep up" in quotes. I have no desire to subject my ears to that kind of high frequency pain. 155+ at 30hz I love but theres no way i want that in my mids and highs.

The 9887 can store alot of preset settings for crossovers, levels, eq etc. SO the plan is to have setting for daily listening which would be my SQ settings with the substage turned way down to blend in. And then have settings for high volume demos. I know I cant have my cake and eat it too lol.

QUOTE]

So with that in mind do you really think super tweets and Pro audio mids are the way to go? Keep in mind I plan to compete in IASCA idbl/bassboxing as well as SQC.

I guess I question it because I dont see them being able to have the same SQ as a regular driver designed for such. Alot of my basshead friends run PA gear and I dont think I could ever stand to have their setups as something I lsten to daily haha. Maybe its just a poor install?
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Old 05-24-2013   #14
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

[QUOTE=bassodeo;1893513]Thanks for all the input guys! I want to bump this though...should have stated it better in my first post

Quote:
Originally Posted by minbari View Post
Haha I couldnt agree more. That's why I put "keep up" in quotes. I have no desire to subject my ears to that kind of high frequency pain. 155+ at 30hz I love but theres no way i want that in my mids and highs.

The 9887 can store alot of preset settings for crossovers, levels, eq etc. SO the plan is to have setting for daily listening which would be my SQ settings with the substage turned way down to blend in. And then have settings for high volume demos. I know I cant have my cake and eat it too lol.

QUOTE]

So with that in mind do you really think super tweets and Pro audio mids are the way to go? Keep in mind I plan to compete in IASCA idbl/bassboxing as well as SQC.

I guess I question it because I dont see them being able to have the same SQ as a regular driver designed for such. Alot of my basshead friends run PA gear and I dont think I could ever stand to have their setups as something I lsten to daily haha. Maybe its just a poor install?
Poor install possibly or taste preferred. The problem is you're asking for all three of Hoffman's.
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Old 05-24-2013   #15
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietfly View Post
THESE


95db1/1
nice and loud....
4 of them should SCREAM
The FR actually looks decent on these compared to most, any idea what kind of enclosure they want?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAAAAAA View Post
Guys pro audio drivers don't play low and need very large enclosures.I don't think they make any sense.

And yes I think .3 might be a bit to small for those daytons... They need a bit over .4 so they need 33% more volume. Seems like ported would yeild better results IMO.
Gotcha, i'll have to figure out more precisely how much space I have to work with, the .6 was an estimate since its an odd shaped glass door pod. And yes, what you were saying about PA speakers is part of why I was shying away as well, but I could be wrong, Ive never taken the time to play with any personally.
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Old 05-24-2013   #16
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassodeo View Post

I guess I question it because I dont see them being able to have the same SQ as a regular driver designed for such. Alot of my basshead friends run PA gear and I dont think I could ever stand to have their setups as something I lsten to daily haha. Maybe its just a poor install?
but what kind of PA gear? there is plenty of high sensitivity drivers that sound very good. install is a good 50% of results.

Original post whore!
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Let's not overlook the fact that the latest rage is using these pro drivers of lesser quality and severely limited low end. Most of the ones they use are true midrange duty oriented with a frequency response starting @ 500hz and up. That is not the type suggested here.


Even with this offering from a reputable manufacturer designed specifically for such purposes, I see none of these being used by these guys in other forums. They simply don't know or have a different agenda than what I would consider borderline.

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Old 05-24-2013   #18
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minbari View Post
but what kind of PA gear? there is plenty of high sensitivity drivers that sound very good. install is a good 50% of results.
This....

The more i've looked into it PA gear in the proper install can be REALLY great.
BTW bassodeo those Faital's get great reviews mostly in door installs. I wanted something that had a lower FS so i went with anarchy's.
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Old 05-24-2013   #19
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Also to add.... this obsession of getting low for mids in the doors or up front, that is a problem of it's own. Nothing wrong with that at lower levels and/or in a SQ system, but when you start cranking on things you will find a different tuning with a much higher xover point just as feasible regarding that your subs are adding more to the kick & midbass than realized.
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Old 05-24-2013   #20
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

I'll look into the PA direction a bit more then (ive heard crescendo mids and tweets, sundown 6" mids, seleniums, and crossfire 8" pa mids) im still skeptical though haha some of them did sound good but none of them seemed "lifelike" or jump out at me as being exceptional...maybe ill just have to order a pair of the eminence to try out, they are pretty cheap so it wouldnt be much of a loss!

But say I count that out and decide that I want to keep with the more traditional SQ based drivers. Do you think the Daytons will be worth trying? Can they take the power if crossed correctly? Or are there other drivers that I should look at in the same class
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietfly View Post
This....

The more i've looked into it PA gear in the proper install can be REALLY great.
BTW bassodeo those Faital's get great reviews mostly in door installs. I wanted something that had a lower FS so i went with anarchy's.
Are these the Anarchy's you are referring to?

DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Anarchy »

They look pretty sweet haha thoughts on how they would compare to the Dayton? Are they as awesome as the reviews on the site make them seem?
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Old 05-24-2013   #22
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAAAAAA View Post
Guys pro audio drivers don't play low and need very large enclosures.I don't think they make any sense.

And yes I think .3 might be a bit to small for those daytons... They need a bit over .4 so they need 33% more volume. Seems like ported would yeild better results IMO.
Your statement is not entirely true. Pro audio midbass drivers do require a ported enclosure to efficiently play to 60-80hz. I do not call a 0.5-1.0 cubic foot enclosure large but it does make installation a bit more difficult. Most convention midbass drivers can be mounted IB which makes installation a little easier for most folks.

For the op's install SPL is top priority and SQ is a determining factor as well in his equipment choice. His goals would be easily accomplished with HLCD's and a 8" or 10" midbass.

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Old 05-24-2013   #23
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassodeo View Post
Are these the Anarchy's you are referring to?

DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Anarchy »

They look pretty sweet haha thoughts on how they would compare to the Dayton? Are they as awesome as the reviews on the site make them seem?
Neither those or the Dayton's will be loud. Well, not as loud as you need.

Have you considered HLCD's and a pro audio 8"-10" midbass?

2015 Hyundai Sonata
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Old 05-24-2013   #24
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

I would almost say that SQ is top priority with spl as an important factor? The way I see it, my prs mid comps on about 400 rms total was enough for my daily listening. By tripling my power with the two 600.2s and doubling the number of drivers, I figured I could get much higher output while still maintaining great SQ and composure at lower listening levels...

If you guys really think I could get the same SQ with a super tweet and large pa midbass than I could look into it and would be interested in suggestions!

Looking at these as replacements to the Daytons:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...dwoofer-4-ohm/

or

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...omex-7-woofer/

Last edited by bassodeo; 05-24-2013 at 06:19 PM..
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Old 08-10-2013   #25
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Default Re: Mids Decision: Dayton RS180....vs others?

peerless way over the scans did u look at the xmax on the scans??

i thought about trying them till i saw 4.2mm

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