12s for low power IB - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 07-09-2019   #1
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Default 12s for low power IB

I'm trying to only use my PsixDSP in my car to save weight and keep it simple. As it will see National level Autox action.
12" would be the simplest install in a 2019 civic.
Trunk is @15ft3
So I'm looking for 2 12s that would work on 240w @2ohm each.
2 ID12s are on my radar.
Any other recommendations?
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Old 07-09-2019   #2
 
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

AE SBP12s are some of the top recommended IB subs on DIYMA but they are quite a bit more expensive than the ID12s. IDMAX are also recommended but those are quite a bit heavier, not to mention also more expensive.
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Old 07-10-2019   #3
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Default 12s for low power IB

IDMAX weights a lottttt. You're going to need some bracing keep it stable. Definitely go with the AE.


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Old 07-10-2019   #4
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

Pretty sure they only make the AE in 4ohm. They would only get 120w each.
And 240w on a Idmax prob not enough either.
Looking for lower watt 2ohm final load 12s.
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Old 07-10-2019   #5
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

The AEs will make the best use of that power. A while back I modeled a whole bunch of subs for IB and the AEs always came out on top as far as sensitivity. I'm running a single IB15AU on 160w continuous and it still needs to be turned down to properly level match the front stage.

And I'll get shot for this but if SQ is the focus - I wouldn't load the amp down to 2ohms... Get two 4ohm SVC subs, run them in series and bridge the amp to them... it's a class d and you'll need as much damping factor as can be had out of the system considering it being a trunk baffle install.

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Old 07-10-2019   #6
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

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Originally Posted by Truthunter View Post
The AEs will make the best use of that power. A while back I modeled a whole bunch of subs for IB and the AEs always came out on top as far as sensitivity. I'm running a single IB15AU on 160w continuous and it still needs to be turned down to properly level match the front stage.

And I'll get shot for this but if SQ is the focus - I wouldn't load the amp down to 2ohms... Get two 4ohm SVC subs, run them in series and bridge the amp to them... it's a class d and you'll need as much damping factor as can be had out of the system considering it being a trunk baffle install.
Cant bridge the Psix. So 120w at 4ohm. Thanks for the info. If I can stretch the budget that far, they are top of the list.
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Old 07-10-2019   #7
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

What about a single dual 2 Ohm sub... wire one channel to one coil and the second channel to the other?

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Old 07-10-2019   #8
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

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What about a single dual 2 Ohm sub... wire one channel to one coil and the second channel to the other?
I could do that, but am thinking about cone area. I could do a single 12.
Not that knowledgeable in IB. But thought cone area was king.
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Old 07-10-2019   #9
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

Single 15 an option at all?

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Old 07-10-2019   #10
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

pssound on youtube used an Adire audio 15 in tempest. Here is a video of him testing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsgHsSppA7w

Here is a video of the sub woofer part of his build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBOIOAWo5c8

I highly recommend his channel. I've learned allot from his videos.
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Old 07-10-2019   #11
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

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Originally Posted by subiemax View Post
But thought cone area was king.
I see that said a lot too but IME - a single efficient 15 is more than enough for sq and then some - will shake the visors out of their holders, shake the steering wheel in my hands, and jar the entire frame of the car under me with the right music. Likely a singe 12 would suffice. I really don't understand why I see so many install two 15s on 1kw... maybe just that's what others have done or just the mentality of more is better or maybe previous leftover spl/basshead thinking. With cabin gain - sub-bass freq's are the easiest to generate. I just see too much overkill on top of overkill and don't understand the necessity for it... but I was never into spl either so

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Old 07-10-2019   #12
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

A 15" would take a creative baffle. 12s would be just simple flat board. Actually have an ID15 if I go that route.
Not a basshead by any means.
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Old 07-10-2019   #13
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

I think two 12" AE SPB12-4 on 120w continuous each would work well for you then.

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Old 07-10-2019   #14
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

Although the AE SBP is an amazing speaker (I used 2 15's IB in my last car), I don't think you need to spend that much. If you're looking at ID 12's I'm guessing the AE's will be more than you want to spend. Bass is easy to do well, despite what so many people think. People have had great success using very inexpensive Pyle subs IB, you really don't need high end speakers to reproduce bass well. Even then, the ID is a pretty solid subwoofer, I wouldn't hesitate to run a pair of them IB. Before the AE's I ran a pair of IDQ 10's IB, then I added a 3rd IDQ 10, both setups worked really well. You should have no problem getting great bass from a pair of ID12's off of the power you have.
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Old 07-10-2019   #15
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

I used an IDMAX 12 IB for a bit and it was actually quite nice. My mounting location was not ideal, so couldn't fully utilize it... but it did sound so completely natural and blend about as perfect as you could ask for.

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Old 07-10-2019   #16
 
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

FI IB3v2? They have a single 2 ohm option.
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Old 07-10-2019   #17
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Default 12s for low power IB

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Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
People have had great success using very inexpensive Pyle subs IB, you really don't need high end speakers to reproduce bass well.

I don't think you've ever heard high end subwoofers if you could make this statement.

My listening experience comes from my own vehicle where I would swap out and test subs from friends and my own collection. Each sub had its own characteristics and I could hear a difference in accuracy and SPL.

I'm currently running a Dynaudio Esotar 1200 in a 2 cu ft sealed box and it's the best I've ever heard in my car. I went from testing various IDQ, Focal K2 and JL w7 and w6 subs all in proper boxes. The sub bass coming from the Dynaudio is smooth, accurate and goes really low.


80hz is a null spot not incorrect time alignment

You could produce sub freqs using any cheap subwoofer but accurate and smooth transition doesn't come cheap. You could get SPL for cheap though.




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Old 07-10-2019   #18
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

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I don't think you've ever heard high end subwoofers if you could make this statement.

My listening experience comes from my own vehicle where I would swap out and test subs from friends and my own collection. Each sub had its own characteristics and I could hear a difference in accuracy and SPL.

I'm currently running a Dynaudio Esotar 1200 in a 2 cu ft sealed box and it's the best I've ever heard in my car. I went from testing various IDQ, Focal K2 and JL w7 and w6 subs all in proper boxes. The sub bass coming from the Dynaudio is smooth and accurate.

You could produce sub freqs using any cheap subwoofer but accurate and smooth transition doesn't come cheap. You could get SPL for cheap though.




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I just explained that I ran a pair of AE SBP15's IB, so yes, I know what good bass is. I also know how easy bass is to replicate, and how much distortion we tolerate (and to a point actually prefer) at low frequencies before we dislike the sound.

You can keep buying high end subs all you want, but the difference between a budget sub and a high end sub is far less than the difference between a budge midrange, and a high end midrange. Again, bass is easy, our hearing isn't very sensitive to sub bass. I'm not claiming that there is no difference, I'm saying that even inexpensive subs can perform very well when used in an enclosure that suits them.

Additionally, our echoic memory is very poor, only a few seconds. Claiming to hear significant differences in a subwoofers performance after spending more than a few seconds switching between them is something I'm not buying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echoic_memory
Unless you are switching back and forth immediately and each sub is level matched to the same SPL, I call BS.
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Old 07-10-2019   #19
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
I don't think you've ever heard high end subwoofers if you could make this statement.

My listening experience comes from my own vehicle where I would swap out and test subs from friends and my own collection. Each sub had its own characteristics and I could hear a difference in accuracy and SPL.

I'm currently running a Dynaudio Esotar 1200 in a 2 cu ft sealed box and it's the best I've ever heard in my car. I went from testing various IDQ, Focal K2 and JL w7 and w6 subs all in proper boxes. The sub bass coming from the Dynaudio is smooth and accurate.

You could produce sub freqs using any cheap subwoofer but accurate and smooth transition doesn't come cheap. You could get SPL for cheap though.




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I just explained that I ran a pair of AE SBP15's IB, so yes, I know what good bass is. I also know how easy bass is to replicate, and how much distortion we tolerate (and to a point actually prefer) at low frequencies before we dislike the sound.

You can keep buying high end subs all you want, but the difference between a budget sub and a high end sub is far less than the difference between a budge midrange, and a high end midrange. Again, bass is easy, our hearing isn't very sensitive to sub bass. I'm not claiming that there is no difference, I'm saying that even inexpensive subs can perform very well when used in an enclosure that suits them.

Additionally, our echoic memory is very poor, only a few seconds. Claiming to hear significant differences in a subwoofers performance after spending more than a few seconds switching between them is something I'm not buying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echoic_memory
Unless you are switching back and forth immediately and each sub is level matched to the same SPL, I call BS.
Not that I know any better but some of it could also be the placebo effect. You run a cheaper sub. The buy one that's more expensive and trick yourself into thinking it sounds better.
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Old 07-10-2019   #20
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe View Post
I just explained that I ran a pair of AE SBP15's IB, so yes, I know what good bass is. I also know how easy bass is to replicate, and how much distortion we tolerate (and to a point actually prefer) at low frequencies before we dislike the sound.



You can keep buying high end subs all you want, but the difference between a budget sub and a high end sub is far less than the difference between a budge midrange, and a high end midrange. Again, bass is easy, our hearing isn't very sensitive to sub bass. I'm not claiming that there is no difference, I'm saying that even inexpensive subs can perform very well when used in an enclosure that suits them.



Additionally, our echoic memory is very poor, only a few seconds. Claiming to hear significant differences in a subwoofers performance after spending more than a few seconds switching between them is something I'm not buying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echoic_memory

Unless you are switching back and forth immediately and each sub is level matched to the same SPL, I call BS.


I mix and master music as a hobby. Having a keen ear is a huge part of it. I know when something is revealing. Especially since I mix mainly EDM where it's mostly low end.

You guys are open to your own opinion. I know what I'm hearing. I'll admit this. It's harder to hear when you're going 75mph and all the road noise masks what you're hearing. But I know what I'm hearing and I don't need Wikipedia to tell me otherwise.


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Old 07-10-2019   #21
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

This might surprise some people, but on a budget (actually less than the IDs on Amazon) I would take a look at the Infinity Kappa 1200W. This is a low inductance subwoofer (not quite as low as AE) with plenty of excursion and it should work quite well in IB. The switchable impedance is also a nice convenience, and I personally like the looks. I was actually going to get a pair for my wife's car until I fell into a deal I couldn't refuse on a couple of 15" Gladen IB subwoofers.

I think the Infinitys are an absolute steal at the current $107 price point on Amazon. Will the IB12AU and IB12SBP be better subwoofers? Likely. Worth spending 6-10+ times the money? That is a personal decision.


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Old 07-10-2019   #22
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Default 12s for low power IB

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Originally Posted by ToNasty View Post
Not that I know any better but some of it could also be the placebo effect. You run a cheaper sub. The buy one that's more expensive and trick yourself into thinking it sounds better.


I really wish I could get this type of sound with $300.

I just wanted to try out the Esotar to hear the hype. Bought one to try in a 2 cu ft box and ended up loving it so much I shelled out for another one so I could run them in IB.

I would've been more than happy to keep my dual IDQ10 if it was as good. Who wouldn't wanna save money? The IDQ are good. Just not as accurate and smooth in delivery. It is one tight subwoofer though but I noticed it doesn't blend from one sub note to another as well.

The Esotar subs are in a different league. I was part of the subs don't matter club but everyone knows as you slowly get deep into this hobby and you listen to more setups you start to develop a sense of what sounds good and what doesn't.

I also use headphones with Sonarworks Reference 4 along with Waves NX vsts to listen to reference music. With headphones you don't have a bad room to ruin bass response.

The surround on the Esotar is really soft compared to most the other subs I listed above, not sure if that has anything to do with the amount of control it has. I'm not going to pretend I know how to make a good subwoofer. Just stating something I noticed.


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Last edited by tonynca; 07-10-2019 at 06:22 PM..
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Old 07-10-2019   #23
 
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

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Old 07-10-2019   #24
 
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
I really wish I could get this type of sound with $300.

I just wanted to try out the Esotar to hear the hype. Bought one to try in a 2 cu ft box and ended up loving it so much I shelled out for another one so I could run them in IB.

I would've been more than happy to keep my dual IDQ10 if it was as good. Who wouldn't wanna save money? The IDQ are good. Just not as accurate and smooth in delivery. It is one tight subwoofer though but I noticed it doesn't blend from one sub note to another as well.

The Esotar subs are in a different league. I was part of the subs don't matter club but everyone knows as you slowly get deep into this hobby and you listen to more setups you start to develop a sense of what sounds good and what doesn't.

I also use headphones with Sonarworks Reference 4 along with Waves NX vsts to listen to reference music. With headphones you don't have a bad room to ruin bass response.

The surround on the Esotar is really soft compared to most the other subs I listed above, not sure if that has anything to do with the amount of control it has. I'm not going to pretend I know how to make a good subwoofer. Just stating something I noticed.


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I have no doubt there is huge differences in the ID and esostar. I'm saying in general

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Old 07-10-2019   #25
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Default Re: 12s for low power IB

I had great luck with JBL GTO 15s in my Sonata IB
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