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Old 07-16-2019   #26
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
The ability to easily 'toggle' to a second tune 'compromised' for two front occupants would be a bonus but is not a 'must have' (if that involves a significant extra expense such as Helix Director I'd probably do without for a long time).)
ARC can switch presets without the PSC btw and I dont think you can with the HELIX without the director
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Old 07-17-2019   #27
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Also, Mobile Toys in College Station Texas successfully integrate to a Honda RidgeLine with JL AUDIO processors

FiX-82 and a TwK-88. Why the two processors, you would have to Chris Pate and find out why.
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Old 07-17-2019   #28
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Woooo that's a gorgeous job right there. Looks like someone has mastered the faux-section process, where it looks like many different pieces but they are all one thing. Plus the stitching, just awesome.

Special thanks to all of the industry experts that share their knowledge here on the forum
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Old 07-20-2019   #29
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
I'm trying to ID DSP(s) that will work for my project so I know what to watch for in the classifieds (I know I'll not be buying new).

Must Have Requirements:
  • >8-channel high-level speaker input: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Ability to Sum: [(input 1) + (input 2/180) + (input 3/180)] = output 1 OR [(input 1) - (input 2) - (input 3)] = output 1
  • >8-channel low-level RCA output: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Usual complement of TA, EQ, and output XO tuning capabilities

The end-goal is to have:
  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position
My experience with the JL fix 82 shows you only need 6 ch input for your goals or even less.

Front L&R tweeter & L&R door, center, sub. The rear will be derived from the front input and processed as you wish through the processor. In fact in talking with JL Audio they recommend using the least number of channels to capture a full range signal and then let the processor derive from there. I had already hooked up all my inputs but did play around with turning different ones off and on and running calibration sweeps. If memory serves correctly I think the front doors see a full 20-20k. I would have to double check. However, if so, you'd only need front door and center inputs to achieve your goal. The processor would handle the routing from there.

I'm gathering parts to upgrade my system again and found the ARC PS8 fits the bill nicely. I spoke to ARC and they said the PS8 could handle what the JL Fix 82 was doing albeit manually and with single global output EQ, so flattening the OE curve and tuning all in one place. More difficult but supposedly enough EQ resolution to do it. This is not as nice as say the PS8 Pro with separate input EQ and output EQ. Or stacking the JL fix82 with the PS8. (As an aside I'll be posting a used PS8 for sale as I came across a great deal on a new PS8-50 alowing me to eliminate 1 stand alone amplifier from my build)

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+ Complete Clarion FDS = 2 stock location tweeters, 4 stock location 6.5", +2 10" subs under rear seat.

Last edited by Mtbhauler; 07-20-2019 at 05:20 AM..
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Old 07-20-2019   #30
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

[QUOTE=Why the two processors, you would have to Chris Pate and find out why.[/QUOTE]

Fix82 handles flattening the OE output automtically and has a 10 band eq built in to further dial things in. If you want to "tweak" further you add he TWK88 for more eq resolution/features...time alignment etc.

2018 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E - Current system - JL fix82
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Old 07-20-2019   #31
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
This is my goal
Preset 1 Volume 0-20 (one seat)
Preset 2 Volume 21-40 (one seat)
Preset 3 SQL TUNE from Digital Input (no input EQ)
Preset 4 Volume 12 (two seat)(preset 1 EQ curve)(Center input enabled) Daily for wife and I so she can hear music from the Center not the right Apillar.
I'm changing things up and have a PS8-50 in the works. Could you explain in a little more detail why you chose this strategy as opposed to leaving the stock volume fixed at say 38 and then using the PSC to handle volume?

2018 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E - Current system - JL fix82
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Old 07-20-2019   #32
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Great choice, you wont be dissatisfied.

I am doing it this way because my wife wants things simple.
We will be using preset 4, 90% of the time since we car pool and usually listen to the local radio.

She could careless how it sounds, as long as the navigation prompts work as expected and phone calls come in properly. This requires the PSC volume to be at 0.0db.

Now, when I'm alone and listening to the OEM radio, I'll switch to preset 1 or 2 depending where I want to be volume. Same concept for Preset 4, PSC Volume is 0.0db and i simply ride the oem volume.

Now, If i want to use the FiiO, I have to use the PSC volume. Navigation ducking is enabled for preset 3 in the PS8 software, so the DSP will auto attenuate when Nav promts come in.
Only drawback is, phone calls require the FiiO to be paused and I have to bring the PSC volume back to 0.0db.

Hope this helps

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Old 07-20-2019   #33
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtbhauler View Post
Fix82 handles flattening the OE output automtically and has a 10 band eq built in to further dial things in. If you want to "tweak" further you add he TWK88 for more eq resolution/features...time alignment etc.
My circle of audio friends advised me to steer clear of the JL FIX products. The dont do everyrhing as advirtised in the TA removing department and they sound just okay.



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Old 07-20-2019   #34
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
Great choice, you wont be dissatisfied.

I am doing it this way because my wife wants things simple.
We will be using preset 4, 90% of the time since we car pool and usually listen to the local radio.

She could careless how it sounds, as long as the navigation prompts work as expected and phone calls come in properly. This requires the PSC volume to be at 0.0db.

Now, when I'm alone and listening to the OEM radio, I'll switch to preset 1 or 2 depending where I want to be volume. Same concept for Preset 4, PSC Volume is 0.0db and i simply ride the oem volume.

Now, If i want to use the FiiO, I have to use the PSC volume. Navigation ducking is enabled for preset 3 in the PS8 software, so the DSP will auto attenuate when Nav promts come in.
Only drawback is, phone calls require the FiiO to be paused and I have to bring thw PSC volume back to 0.0db.

Hope this helps

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I understand the wife strategy for preset 4.

I'm more curious about the preset 1&2 volume ranges vs OE Eq. Did you test & find the OE eq varies in "steps" at certain volume positions or is it continuously variable? I guess what I'm saying is how did you decide 0-20 is one preset vs 20-40? And why set the PSC at 0db vs doing it the other way around. I'm assuming to retain steering wheel control? I'm also guessing maybe you found the stock Eq change is acceptable in those ranges if you have compensation in the PS8 for that preset. Correct me if I have the wrong assumptions.

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+ Complete Clarion FDS = 2 stock location tweeters, 4 stock location 6.5", +2 10" subs under rear seat.
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Old 07-20-2019   #35
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtbhauler View Post
I understand the wife strategy for preset 4.

I'm more curious about the preset 1&2 volume ranges vs OE Eq. Did you test & find the OE eq varies in "steps" at certain volume positions or is it continuously variable? I guess what I'm saying is how did you decide 0-20 is one preset vs 20-40? And why set the PSC at 0db vs doing it the other way around. I'm assuming to retain steering wheel control? I'm also guessing maybe you found the stock Eq change is acceptable in those ranges if you have compensation in the PS8 for that preset. Correct me if I have the wrong assumptions.
I briefly tested(AudioControl RTA at a local shop) the volume at 20 and 40 and watched the RTA as the OEM radio changed the EQ. I have to locate my MAudio USB-PRE to make the OEM input EQ changes. Also, only having 4 presets is another reason for 0-20 and 21-40.

Leaving the PSC Volume at 0 retained, Streeting Volume, Navigation and Phone calls.

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Old 07-20-2019   #36
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
My circle of audio friends advised me to steer clear of the JL FIX products. The dont do everyrhing as advirtised in the TA removing department and they sound just okay.



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I agree with that. I've been out of the car audio game for a while.
(started in car audio in the early 90's and later worked for a french driver manufacturer and ironically spent time on the OE side of car audio when they were supplying Harman Motive but lot's changed on the integration side since then)

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Old 07-20-2019   #37
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
This is my goal
Preset 1 Volume 0-20 (one seat)
Preset 2 Volume 21-40 (one seat)
Preset 3 SQL TUNE from Digital Input (no input EQ)
Preset 4 Volume 12 (two seat)(preset 1 EQ curve)(Center input enabled) Daily for wife and I so she can hear music from the Center not the right Apillar.
With presets 1, 2, & 3, is the center input enabled and if yes, what speaker output is that routed to through your DSP? If center input is not enabled for those presets, then you lose some vehicle voices (nav guidance) when using those presets to play music from an OEM music source input (e.g. USB, CD player), correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtbhauler View Post
My experience with the JL fix 82 shows you only need 6 ch input for your goals or even less.

Front L&R tweeter & L&R door, center, sub. The rear will be derived from the front input and processed as you wish through the processor. In fact in talking with JL Audio they recommend using the least number of channels to capture a full range signal and then let the processor derive from there. I had already hooked up all my inputs but did play around with turning different ones off and on and running calibration sweeps. If memory serves correctly I think the front doors see a full 20-20k. I would have to double check. However, if so, you'd only need front door and center inputs to achieve your goal. The processor would handle the routing from there.
I agree that using minimal inputs to get a full-range signal for DSP processing is most appropriate for music. However, that does not retain all vehicle voices and tones when they are distributed among different channels on the OEM amp outputs as is the case with the Ridgeline RTL-E / BE.

Front door L&R, even if 20-20kHz, are used to broadcast certain vehicle tones/voices and are attenuated when that occurs. Rear door L&R broadcast music only and have a different muting/attenuation scheme compared to the front when certain vehicle voices/tones are broadcast.

My 'requirement' to accept all 8 of the RTL-E inputs is to have the best chance at getting signals into the DSP which can be manipulated to cancel the 'dumb L+R music' that's broadcast on the OEM center (more on that at this post). We all know that a 'dumb L+R center' (as opposed to an up-mixed center that plays only what's on L and R) plays havoc with front stage imaging at best. That's the problem I'm trying to eliminate with music, while retaining the vehicle voices/tones that are only on the OEM center amp output.



Last edited by FordEscape; 07-20-2019 at 09:24 AM..
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Old 07-20-2019   #38
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
With presets 1, 2, & 3, is the center input enabled and if yes, what speaker output is that routed to through your DSP? If center input is not enabled for those presets, then you lose some vehicle voices (nav guidance) when using those presets to play music from an OEM music source input (e.g. USB, CD player), correct?
I simply have the center channel attenuated to the lowest setting in the Radio making it barely audible.
When Nav and Guideance prompts, it ignores the Center level set by the user

Rears are not routed the PS8PRO.
I only use TW (L & R) and Front (L & R)

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Old 07-20-2019   #39
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
That's the problem I'm trying to eliminate with music, while retaining the vehicle voices/tones that are only on the OEM center amp output.]
.....deleted....incorrect information

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Old 07-20-2019   #40
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
I simply have the center channel attenuated to the lowest setting in the Radio making it barely audible.
When Nav and Guideance prompts, it ignores the Center level set by the user
OK, so that's an acceptable compromise for you, still broadcasting the 'dumb L+R center' at "barely audible" levels. No worries, it's your vehicle.

Maybe that's where I end up, but for now I'm still aiming for no compromise of the front stage with a 'dumb L+R center' at any level. I won't now if that's possible unless I try, and that's requiring some 'outside-the-box' thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
PS8PRO/PS8-50 will be the only DSP that will do this unless you can find another DSP that has Navigation Ducking
EDIT - ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE ABOVE WAS DELETED WHILE I WAS COMPOSING THE FOLLOWING

I respectfully disagree. There are other DSPs which support mixing/inverting of inputs to 'cancel' a signal as I propose with the RTL-E center channel music. I can find nothing solely unique to the ARC processors or their software related to management of a center channel input / output.

We know, for example, that Helix DSP Pro mkI and mkII with their software does in fact allow management of each discrete input channel mixing, independent of all other inputs, and routing of any mixed output to any discrete speaker. It does not require anything to be managed as 'channel pairs'. Helix does support manipulating the level of each discrete signal used in mixing, a feature which may prove useful in my case.

Please understand I'm not in any way slamming the ARC DSPs (or any other) - I'm just studying all of them with an open mind looking for the DSP most likely to facilitate meeting all of my objectives.

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Old 07-20-2019   #41
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Aside -

Thanks to @AVIDEDTR for the phone call and more info sharing. Gotta love members on this forum and their willingness to get involved with helping other's projects!




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Old 07-20-2019   #42
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Faded to the rear in the Honda Radio
Center is at the lowest gainsetting in the radio

No more OEM TA and Phase issues

HondaLink voice comes thru channels 1-4 even if faded to the rear.

Center channel works when Nav and Guidance prompts are presented.

Win win

See attached

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Old 07-20-2019   #43
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
I simply have the center channel attenuated to the lowest setting in the Radio making it barely audible.
When Nav and Guideance prompts, it ignores the Center level set by the user

Rears are not routed the PS8PRO.
I only use TW (L & R) and Front (L & R)
So in your case the center is still through the stock amplifier?

Curious, I don't know a lot about the NAV ducking feature on the PS8-Pro but wondering if one could use the center channel input & keep the level for music low, or off, and then use it to attenuate the PS8 music system volume when voice guidance/NAV kicks in?

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+ Complete Clarion FDS = 2 stock location tweeters, 4 stock location 6.5", +2 10" subs under rear seat.
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Old 07-20-2019   #44
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Ducking is needed when i use my FiiO over spdif

the PS8PRO allows analog and digital playback simultaneously

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Old 07-20-2019   #45
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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Originally Posted by Mtbhauler View Post
So in your case the center is still through the stock amplifier?



Curious, I don't know a lot about the NAV ducking feature on the PS8-Pro but wondering if one could use the center channel input & keep the level for music low, or off, and then use it to attenuate the PS8 music system volume when voice guidance/NAV kicks in?
No Center is ran through the ps850 just in case I ever want to get the upmixing working now that I know I probably can I'm going to use it

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Old 07-20-2019   #46
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
Aside -

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtbhauler View Post
So in your case the center is still through the stock amplifier?

Curious, I don't know a lot about the NAV ducking feature on the PS8-Pro but wondering if one could use the center channel input & keep the level for music low, or off, and then use it to attenuate the PS8 music system volume when voice guidance/NAV kicks in?

Do you guys know how to disconnect the Rear Microphone?
It is still causing Auto EQ'ing

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Old 07-20-2019   #47
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
Do you guys know how to disconnect the Rear Microphone?
It is still causing Auto EQ'ing
Per Honda RTL-E wiring diagrams ...

Rear ANC/Active Sound Control Microphone
Pins @ mic:
1: 12v from under hood fuse/relay box pin 27 (same that feeds front accessory power socket relay) (?)
2: out to ANC module pin 17
3: out to ANC module pin 6 (looks like the shield)

Maybe you can catch it at the ANC module? Will be interested to hear if that actually does affect EQ.

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Old 07-20-2019   #48
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
Per Honda RTL-E wiring diagrams ...

Rear ANC/Active Sound Control Microphone
Pins @ mic:
1: 12v from under hood fuse/relay box pin 27 (same that feeds front accessory power socket relay) (?)
2: out to ANC module pin 17
3: out to ANC module pin 6 (looks like the shield)

Maybe you can catch it at the ANC module? Will be interested to hear if that actually does affect EQ.
ANC behind the glove box is disabled. Something is still controlling the 120hz to LFE low bass output.

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Old 07-20-2019   #49
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
ANC behind the glove box is disabled. Something is still controlling the 120hz to LFE low bass output.
Could be the front mic? It connects to both ANC module and directly to the Audio-nav module.

Methinks whatever it is it may not be related to a mic input (?)

Might try testing the 2-channel A-N unit pre-out to the DSP to see if it's present there (if not would be something happening in the amp/DSP)?

Give me a bit to collect things - you have email coming


Last edited by FordEscape; 07-20-2019 at 01:45 PM..
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Old 07-20-2019   #50
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
ANC behind the glove box is disabled. Something is still controlling the 120hz to LFE low bass output.
I have the ANC disabled as well. I didn't have any issue with bass output so the Fix82 may be doing it's job there. My volume is fixed at 38 on the OE head unit. The Clarion FDS has it's own controller like the PSC.
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