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Old 07-10-2019   #1
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Question DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

I'm trying to ID DSP(s) that will work for my project so I know what to watch for in the classifieds (I know I'll not be buying new).

Must Have Requirements:
  • >8-channel high-level speaker input: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Ability to Sum: [(input 1) + (input 2/180) + (input 3/180)] = output 1 OR [(input 1) - (input 2) - (input 3)] = output 1
  • >8-channel low-level RCA output: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Usual complement of TA, EQ, and output XO tuning capabilities

(Background reason for some of the requirements is here if interested)

The end-goal is to have:
  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position

The ability to easily 'toggle' to a second tune 'compromised' for two front occupants would be a bonus but is not a 'must have' (if that involves a significant extra expense such as Helix Director I'd probably do without for a long time).

My research indicates the Helix DSP Pro Mk2 with DSP PC-Tool Version 4 will meet all the above requirements. Can anyone confirm that (especially the input 'summing' capability part)?

Will the earlier Helix DSP Pro Mk1 / Helix DSP Pro meet those same requirements?

Any other DSP that can meet all those requirements?

I plan to use with JBL MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 amps I already have in hand if that makes any difference. Gonna miss the upmixed 'true center' of Logic 7 but the MS-8 can't deal with this vehicle's OEM 'tones and voices' scheme so it's out of the picture. It's a 2019 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E, I will not consider an HU swap.

Thanks In Advance for informed guidance!


Last edited by FordEscape; 07-10-2019 at 11:38 PM..
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Old 07-11-2019   #2
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

I think the new MiniDSP DIRAC 8-12 will do all that, won't it? I don't know, I haven't researched all that in-depth, as I've never cared about center-channel stuff. But I know you can do the signal summing and reassignment and all that.

I'm a pretty big fan of the MiniDSP stuff.

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Old 07-11-2019   #3
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tRidiot View Post
I think the new MiniDSP DIRAC 8-12 will do all that, won't it? I don't know, I haven't researched all that in-depth, as I've never cared about center-channel stuff. But I know you can do the signal summing and reassignment and all that.

I'm a pretty big fan of the MiniDSP stuff.
No center channel with the 8*12, everything else is there, but no center.

The Alpine H800 I think would be an option though and they pop up in the classifieds now and then.

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Old 07-11-2019   #4
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tRidiot View Post
I think the new MiniDSP DIRAC 8-12 will do all that, won't it? I don't know, I haven't researched all that in-depth, as I've never cared about center-channel stuff. But I know you can do the signal summing and reassignment and all that.

I'm a pretty big fan of the MiniDSP stuff.
Thanks for the idea but specs show it only accepts 6 high-level inputs (the "8" includes other input types - optical and RCA).

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post
The Alpine H800 I think would be an option though and they pop up in the classifieds now and then.
Again, only 6-channels on the input side. A shame, I love to use the H800 otherwise.

My OEM amp/DSP (which cannot be bypassed) has 8 discrete output channels (OEM Front outputs are 2-way active), all which need to go into the aftermarket DSP due to the way it distributes vehicle tones and voices among all those channels.


Last edited by FordEscape; 07-11-2019 at 08:16 AM..
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Old 07-11-2019   #5
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Two Dayton DSP-408s ?... Can get two new for less money than one of the others mentioned used. Just a thought.
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Old 07-11-2019   #6
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Helix dsp.3 is what you want. With that center channel you can also use its up mixer for a 2 seat tune

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Old 07-11-2019   #7
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
Helix dsp.3 is what you want. With that center channel you can also use its up mixer for a 2 seat tune
The way I read the DSP.3 specs it 'only' has 6 high-level inputs (+ optical and "remote"). Am I reading that wrong?

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Old 07-11-2019   #8
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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The way I read the DSP.3 specs it 'only' has 6 high-level inputs (+ optical and "remote"). Am I reading that wrong?
Ah yes, then you need the pro mk2

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Old 07-11-2019   #9
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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Ah yes, then you need the pro mk2
Would the earlier (and perhaps less expensive if one comes up) DSP Pro ('mk 1') work as well for my purposes?

I'm having trouble finding documentation online for the pre-mk2 Pro, is it compatible with the later Version 4 software?

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Old 07-11-2019   #10
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
Would the earlier (and perhaps less expensive if one comes up) DSP Pro ('mk 1') work as well for my purposes?



I'm having trouble finding documentation online for the pre-mk2 Pro, is it compatible with the later Version 4 software?
All helix dsp's besides the super old ones are compatible with version 4. I think the first version pro would work for you. My employee actually has one that he is selling too

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Old 07-11-2019   #11
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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All helix dsp's besides the super old ones are compatible with version 4. I think the first version pro would work for you. My employee actually has one that he is selling too
Please see PM sent, thank you.

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Old 07-11-2019   #12
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

no "REAL CENTER" with those though, right?

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Old 07-11-2019   #13
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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no "REAL CENTER" with those though, right?
Re: Helix DSP Pro / Pro MK2, that's my understanding, there's no 'upmixed' center algorithm provided to generate a 'True Center' consisting of only the signal present in both front left and right at any instant.

For my purpose that's OK - I'm just hoping to get to a point (using signal summing/cancellation) where my 'Center' is only broadcasting vehicle tones and voices (see the 'background' link in my first post).

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Old 07-11-2019   #14
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Only the newest gen Helix offerings that feature ACO hardware will have the FX features like Real Center. anything before the up7, dsp.3, and dsp mini are a no go on those features

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Old 07-11-2019   #15
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

that'll do

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Old 07-16-2019   #16
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Pxa-h800 alpine will work and fits your criteria. It has a navigation voice interupt feature that is triggered with a single wire also if your purpose for center channel is bluetooth calling etc. It is still a current unit in alpines lineup even though it is a 2012 model and dated gui.
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Old 07-16-2019   #17
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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Pxa-h800 alpine will work and fits your criteria. It has a navigation voice interupt feature that is triggered with a single wire also if your purpose for center channel is bluetooth calling etc. It is still a current unit in alpines lineup even though it is a 2012 model and dated gui.
I've been reading bout that in the H800 documentation. It's not clear to me if that's dependent on the use of an Alpine NAV system and the "KCE-900E Navigation System Interface Box".

Have you any experience / tips using that H800 capability with an OEM Nav system?

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Old 07-16-2019   #18
 
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

It has a mono rca for nav interupt, and a trigger wire that I would assume either goes to ground or gets 12 volts positive when triggered, the nav interupt kce-900e is only for older alpine ainet decks. I can check mine if youd like. I am still using the ina-w910 and pxa-h800 combo, it does not require the kce-900e, so I can find out what the trigger wire needs to see. It would help if I knew specifically what you are trying to accomplish, others, and myself could give you better advice.
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Is there an alpine dealer near you that does installs. Stop in and discuss your needs with them. I am sure they will be able to help you. I have no dog in the fight, just offering another option for you sir.
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Old 07-16-2019   #20
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

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…. I have no dog in the fight, just offering another option for you sir.
And I do very much appreciate your advice, I don't mean to 'challenge', I'm just struggling a bit at the limits of my knowledge base and trying to learn from good folks like you. Looking for an Alpine installer for face-to-face info exchange is a good idea, thank you!

Quote:
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It would help if I knew specifically what you are trying to accomplish, others, and myself could give you better advice.
Rather than re-typing, if inclined please see this thread for the background, mentioned in my OP above.

Quote:
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It has a mono rca for nav interupt, and a trigger wire that I would assume either goes to ground or gets 12 volts positive when triggered, the nav interupt kce-900e is only for older alpine ainet decks. I can check mine if youd like. I am still using the ina-w910 and pxa-h800 combo, it does not require the kce-900e, so I can find out what the trigger wire needs to see.
That's helpful, thank you. In my case I believe I've found an analog feed from the OEM HU/NAV unit to the OEM amp/DSP that carries the NAV voices/prompts (I'm using the full detailed system wiring diagrams / connector pin assignments to correlate to the figure below). I do not find anything to 'trigger' the silencing of music when that or things like phone use occurs, that seems to be managed internal to the amp/DSP, perhaps relying on Honda Proprietary communication links between the HU and amp/DSP.


So at this point I'm not sure I can utilize the H800 capabilities to my benefit, but not giving up on the project you've certainly given me more to study which I appreciate.

I don't expect to be able to 'fully resolve' all the challenges of this project 'on paper' but hope to at least get confidence that whatever DSP I buy it'll let me eventually get to the desired end goal. I'd love to be able to buy several units and jump directly into definitive experimentation with each but that's not possible for me.

Again, I do appreciate everyone's contributions here - I respect the time y'all are giving me.
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Old 07-16-2019   #21
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
I'm trying to ID DSP(s) that will work for my project so I know what to watch for in the classifieds (I know I'll not be buying new).



Must Have Requirements:
  • >8-channel high-level speaker input: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Ability to Sum: [(input 1) + (input 2/180) + (input 3/180)] = output 1 OR [(input 1) - (input 2) - (input 3)] = output 1
  • >8-channel low-level RCA output: Center; FR Hi L&R; FR Lo L&R; Rear L&R; Sub
  • >Usual complement of TA, EQ, and output XO tuning capabilities



(Background reason for some of the requirements is here if interested)



The end-goal is to have:
  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position



The ability to easily 'toggle' to a second tune 'compromised' for two front occupants would be a bonus but is not a 'must have' (if that involves a significant extra expense such as Helix Director I'd probably do without for a long time).



My research indicates the Helix DSP Pro Mk2 with DSP PC-Tool Version 4 will meet all the above requirements. Can anyone confirm that (especially the input 'summing' capability part)?



Will the earlier Helix DSP Pro Mk1 / Helix DSP Pro meet those same requirements?



Any other DSP that can meet all those requirements?



I plan to use with JBL MS-A1004 and MS-A5001 amps I already have in hand if that makes any difference. Gonna miss the upmixed 'true center' of Logic 7 but the MS-8 can't deal with this vehicle's OEM 'tones and voices' scheme so it's out of the picture. It's a 2019 Honda Ridgeline RTL-E, I will not consider an HU swap.



Thanks In Advance for informed guidance!
PS8 PRO with PSC will do just fine here, in fact, more superior in my opinion for oem integration. I run arc and integrated successfully with it in a 2019 RidgeLine BE.


Also you will have more EQ control on the INPUT side to flatten the post honda amp signal. Helix is 5 bands. PS8 PRO is 12 bands 20hz to 20,000 all parametric with Allpass filters if needed.

You get way more flexibility with the PSC than you do with the HELIX. Tone controls are 3 bands vs 2. The PSC tucks nicely in the glasses holder see photo.

Helix will work, dont get me wrong, if you need a 2 seat tune and want to change the center then get helix for the true center option. i think the PS8PRO will get you there with more options from the psc controllers perspective.







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Old 07-16-2019   #22
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Confirmed Helix 5 bands vs 12 band
You also get more Input Delay in the ARC 11.04 ms vs 5.20 ms

Helix channels are ganged so your Center channel input DE-EQ would need to use a separate channel. ARC's are all independent and not ganged.

Input Sensitivity for OEM support is also far more superior on the ARC PS8 PRO. With the Arc you can choose 0.5V 2V 8V or 32V and you can mix low level input and high level input. 8v was too much input signal at volume 40 and 11v probably will be too.

With the helix you are " Highlevel Input6-channel highlevel loudspeaker input to connect the signal processor directly to loudspeaker outputs of OEM / aftermarket radios or OEM amplifiers that do not have any pre-amplifier outputs. Input sensi-tivity is factory-set to 11 Volts (maximum CCW posi-tion). It is possible to vary the sensitivity between 5 and 11 Volts with control 3 (Input Sensitivity). "
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2019 Honda Ridgeline Black Edition - FiiO M11 & OEM Radio - Arc Audio PS8-50 & X2 1100.1 - Arc Audio RS 1.0 3.0 6.0 - AudioFrog GB10D2x2
2013 Dodge Avenger - Clarion NX706 - Arc Audio PS8PRO - TruTechnology Tungsten T2 T4 TG2 - Audio Frog GB10 GB40 GB60 GB10D2
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Old 07-16-2019   #23
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDEDTR View Post
PS8 PRO with PSC will do just fine here, in fact, more superior in my opinion for oem integration. I run arc and integrated successfully with it in a 2019 RidgeLine BE.
The other day, didnt you say you haven't set up the OEM system to the arc yet?

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Old 07-16-2019   #24
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
The other day, didnt you say you haven't set up the OEM system to the arc yet?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I haven't DE-EQ it fully since the EQ changes with the Volume and I do not have time to make 3 presets for 3 different volume modes plus the amp output schematic I was provided was incorrect and the wires to the DSP are all in phase or put of phase. I need time to set this up correctly.....in the software mind you!.

2019 Honda Ridgeline Black Edition - FiiO M11 & OEM Radio - Arc Audio PS8-50 & X2 1100.1 - Arc Audio RS 1.0 3.0 6.0 - AudioFrog GB10D2x2
2013 Dodge Avenger - Clarion NX706 - Arc Audio PS8PRO - TruTechnology Tungsten T2 T4 TG2 - Audio Frog GB10 GB40 GB60 GB10D2
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Old 07-16-2019   #25
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Default Re: DSP Meeting These Requirements ....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FordEscape View Post
  • Center = non-music vehicle tones and voices only
  • 2-way active Front Stage
  • Rear Fill
  • Sub
  • tune optimized for driver-only position
)

This is my goal
Preset 1 Volume 0-20 (one seat)
Preset 2 Volume 21-40 (one seat)
Preset 3 SQL TUNE from Digital Input (no input EQ)
Preset 4 Volume 12 (two seat)(preset 1 EQ curve)(Center input enabled) Daily for wife and I so she can hear music from the Center not the right Apillar.

2019 Honda Ridgeline Black Edition - FiiO M11 & OEM Radio - Arc Audio PS8-50 & X2 1100.1 - Arc Audio RS 1.0 3.0 6.0 - AudioFrog GB10D2x2
2013 Dodge Avenger - Clarion NX706 - Arc Audio PS8PRO - TruTechnology Tungsten T2 T4 TG2 - Audio Frog GB10 GB40 GB60 GB10D2
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