How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4? - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 07-19-2019   #1
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Question How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4?

Running a 2 way set up with these tweeters. I was thinking 2K at 24db.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

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Old 07-19-2019   #2
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

What size mid woofer are you using with these. Crossing to avoid beaming frequencies of the mid-woofer is all you really need but not so low that you stress the tweeter either. You can cross them at 2k but if you donít need to than higher is safer. People have crossed these over as low as 1500 Hz with a steep crossover but I wouldnít recommend it if you donít have to. I have mine at 2500 Hz with Focal PS 165V mid woofers and that is a good point that works for my particular system.

EDIT: just realized you have something different, I have experience with the SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4 Neo Magnet, Ring Dome Tweeter so throw this out the window.

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Old 07-19-2019   #3
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

I used its little brother for awhile, https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...weeter-4-ohms/


I could hear distortion crossed low, I ran them pretty high.. fwiw.

Ended up going to ring radiator JC referenced (the nvx variant), and like them much better.


Of course I've moved on from that too.. and now run a coaxial

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Old 07-19-2019   #4
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCsAudio View Post
What size mid woofer are you using with these. Crossing to avoid beaming frequencies of the mid-woofer is all you really need but not so low that you stress the tweeter either. You can cross them at 2k but if you donít need to than higher is safer. People have crossed these over as low as 1500 Hz with a steep crossover but I wouldnít recommend it if you donít have to. I have mine at 2500 Hz with Focal PS 165V mid woofers and that is a good point that works for my particular system.

EDIT: just realized you have something different, I have experience with the SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4 Neo Magnet, Ring Dome Tweeter so throw this out the window.
Actually you were right I had the wrong tweeter referenced in my title (I corrected before this reply). Thanks for the info!

I am surprised that a tweeter with an FS of 680 hz would struggle to be crossed lower. On the Madisound website they note: IEC 268-5 high pass butterworth, 2600 Hz, 12 dB/oct which would put it 12 dB's down at 1300 Hz. A 24 dB at 2000 Hz would put the 12 dB point at 1500. I'm not disagreeing with your take I'm just surprised.

So what do you think of the SB29RDCN-C000-4 tweeters having used them for a while? Thanks!

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Old 07-20-2019   #5
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

To be honest I have never pushed this tweeter below 2200 Hz and settled on 2500 Hz so when I talk about it, itís in reference to using it this way in my van with the Focal woofers. Before I settled on this tweeter I had tried other tweeters from Peerless, Morel, and Focal. None of them even came close to sounding as good as these sound. I swapped these without telling my wife and she noticed it right away. These give me an open wide stage with good off axis response in my system and they have super low distortion. They have just the right amount of detail and are easy to EQ. I also have the AudioFrog GB15 and GB10 to compare these to and these are about as good as you will get for that price point in my opinion. They are right up there with my AF tweeters for a fraction of the cost. Donít be afraid of using these tweeters because I give these an excellent overall rating and they are a bargain for what they cost if you can fit them.

In the spec sheet by SB the fs is listed as 580 Hz. http://www.madisound.com/store/manua...DCN-C000-4.pdf

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Old 07-20-2019   #6
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCsAudio View Post
To be honest I have never pushed this tweeter below 2200 Hz and settled on 2500 Hz so when I talk about it, itís in reference to using it this way in my van with the Focal woofers. Before I settled on this tweeter I had tried other tweeters from Peerless, Morel, and Focal. None of them even came close to sounding as good as these sound. I swapped these without telling my wife and she noticed it right away. These give me an open wide stage with good off axis response in my system and they have super low distortion. They have just the right amount of detail and are easy to EQ. I also have the AudioFrog GB15 and GB10 to compare these to and these are about as good as you will get for that price point in my opinion. They are right up there with my AF tweeters for a fraction of the cost. Donít be afraid of using these tweeters because I give these an excellent overall rating and they are a bargain for what they cost if you can fit them.

In the spec sheet by SB the fs is listed as 580 Hz. http://www.madisound.com/store/manua...DCN-C000-4.pdf
Glad to hear you like these so much!

That'll teach me to accept the Madisound summary (link below which shows 680) instead of going to the manufacturers data as you linked to above.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-dome-tweeter/

I'll be running SB29RDCN with the SB17CAC35-4 6" (which is on sale for $59.00 that's regularly $86.50!) so 2500 will be fine.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...woofer-4-ohms/

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Old 07-20-2019   #7
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Interesting little woofer. Keep us updated on how it sounds.

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Old 07-20-2019   #8
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

I had the NVX version of these before my GB60 and liked them a lot. They are basically the paper versions of these. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...version-4-ohm/

You will want to make a rain guard for them though to protect the open voice coil from getting wet every time it rains or they wonít last in the harsh environment of a car door. I used foam speaker baffles and cut them in half to make my own rain guards. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_237XT6...1-4-depth.html

Their parameters arenít really suited for quasi infinite baffle use like in a car door but the NVX versions that I had did work out well and had similar tonality to my GB60 but with less midbass than the GB60.

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Old 08-06-2019   #9
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCsAudio View Post
To be honest I have never pushed this tweeter below 2200 Hz and settled on 2500 Hz so when I talk about it, itís in reference to using it this way in my van with the Focal woofers. Before I settled on this tweeter I had tried other tweeters from Peerless, Morel, and Focal. None of them even came close to sounding as good as these sound. I swapped these without telling my wife and she noticed it right away. These give me an open wide stage with good off axis response in my system and they have super low distortion. They have just the right amount of detail and are easy to EQ. I also have the AudioFrog GB15 and GB10 to compare these to and these are about as good as you will get for that price point in my opinion. They are right up there with my AF tweeters for a fraction of the cost. Donít be afraid of using these tweeters because I give these an excellent overall rating and they are a bargain for what they cost if you can fit them.

In the spec sheet by SB the fs is listed as 580 Hz. http://www.madisound.com/store/manua...DCN-C000-4.pdf
Thanks for the feedback as these are one of the tweeters I'm looking at for my S4's 3way front stage. The other one i'm looking at based on FR alone is this one and would appreciate any comparison you may notice since I don't understand speaker parameters. Only thing I notice is the sensitivity is about 4db less with this one. Would that extra 4db may be nice to have or make a difference? TIA

https://meniscusaudio.com/product/sb-sb21rdc-c000-4/
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Old 08-06-2019   #10
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

The SB29RDNC's produce an amount of 2nd order harmonics below 4khz, but that's typically not offensive. You probably want to cross at ~2,250-2,500hz to get the best out of them.

Here's how their THD looks at around 8 actual watts (which is pretty loud):



You can see 2nd order harmonics crosses the 1% threshold around 4khz. Odd order harmonics don't become much of an issue until around 1700khz at that power level. You'll be only putting out about 25% of the power with an LR4 crossover around 2.4-2.5khz at that frequency, which means your odd order and 2nd order harmonics will look a lot more like this at ~1600khz and further improve below:



So 2nd order harmonics will probably be in the -35db range (~1.77%) and odd order harmonics will be far below that with the most prominent being 3rd order at around 0.25% THD.

In other words, this should be a good performer and the 2nd order harmonics will likely just add a "warm" sound to the overall signature. I'd give between 2.25 - 2.5khz LR4 a try and see what matches your listening levels the best.

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Old 08-06-2019   #11
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

They might be great for home use, but tbh, idk if i would recommend them in a car. I have used the carbon ones before and would never again. Qts is to low, cms is to high, and it is not optimized to handle the environment. The first two points will cause it to have you wanting in the midbass department. Itll sound messy and muddy, even if it has xmax to produce the output. When i pulled the carbon version out of the car after 7 months when one stopped working properly, there was oxidation on the pole piece and inside the magnet. Definitely not made for a car that resides in the north east climate
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Old 08-06-2019   #12
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Thanks for the feedback as these are one of the tweeters I'm looking at for my S4's 3way front stage. The other one i'm looking at based on FR alone is this one and would appreciate any comparison you may notice since I don't understand speaker parameters. Only thing I notice is the sensitivity is about 4db less with this one. Would that extra 4db may be nice to have or make a difference? TIA

https://meniscusaudio.com/product/sb-sb21rdc-c000-4/
See this Zaph review on similar SB tweeters here.

It has a higher resonant frequency so it would need to be crossed over a little higher but 2500 Hz LR4 should be no issue with this one either. If your putting together a three way with a smaller more capable midrange than you should be fine here. Itís also a larger format (obviously) and has a little less thermal power handling and I personally donít see this tweeter not being able to keep up with most anything SQ related.

Listen to GreatLaBroski, I know heís done a lot of testing. SkizeR too but I think heís confusing the SB17 woofer with their tweeter, IDK.

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Old 08-06-2019   #13
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Nick is talking about the SB17CAC35-4 6" mentioned above as the midwoofer thats being paired with it. I have a set of these tweeters, they're very good for the price if you can manage to fit them. They're slightly chunky for small format tweets.

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Old 08-06-2019   #14
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

also, tweeters i would probably cross at 2k 24db. maybe a hair higher.
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Old 08-06-2019   #15
 
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Default How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCsAudio View Post
See this Zaph review on similar SB tweeters here.



It has a higher resonant frequency so it would need to be crossed over a little higher but 2500 Hz LR4 should be no issue with this one either. If your putting together a three way with a smaller more capable midrange than you should be fine here. Itís also a larger format (obviously) and has a little less thermal power handling and I personally donít see this tweeter not being able to keep up with most anything SQ related.



Listen to GreatLaBroski, I know heís done a lot of testing. SkizeR too but I think heís confusing the SB17 woofer with their tweeter, IDK.


Thanks for the link. Wish there was a more recent comparison, but he did a great job with that. It made the info much easier to understand.

Thereís a couple of mids Iím looking at. Best guess is that Iím limited to no bigger than 3Ē and no deeper than about 38mm. The only two aftermarket mids Iíve heard of being used in the b&o factory location are the Illusion c3cx and audison voce which are both 3Ē/38mm.

The Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3"

https://www.parts-express.com/tecton...-ohm--297-2157

I go into why I picked this one here, but basically because itís a good flat mid with some interesting properties, though the optimal chamber requirements may be unrealistic?

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...p-si-bm12.html

The other is SB Acoustics SB10PGC21-4 3" Full Range if I have enough depth. Or can it be made to fit?

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-3-full-range/

Would either be preferred to pair with one of the tweets weíre discussing/work in an active 3 way?


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Old 08-07-2019   #16
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

I ran this set for many years. I never ran them passive but I did and still have the passive crossovers. I believe they were set at 1900 Hz with a 12 db slope. Just for shits and giggles I tried them at that crossover point actively. They did play that low but not with much authority. 2200 -2500Hz is the sweet spot.

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Old 08-07-2019   #17
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Thanks for the link. Wish there was a more recent comparison, but he did a great job with that. It made the info much easier to understand.

Thereís a couple of mids Iím looking at. Best guess is that Iím limited to no bigger than 3Ē and no deeper than about 38mm. The only two aftermarket mids Iíve heard of being used in the b&o factory location are the Illusion c3cx and audison voce which are both 3Ē/38mm.

The Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B BMR 3"

https://www.parts-express.com/tecton...-ohm--297-2157

I go into why I picked this one here, but basically because itís a good flat mid with some interesting properties, though the optimal chamber requirements may be unrealistic?

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...p-si-bm12.html

The other is SB Acoustics SB10PGC21-4 3" Full Range if I have enough depth. Or can it be made to fit?

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-3-full-range/

Would either be preferred to pair with one of the tweets weíre discussing/work in an active 3 way?


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I tried the smaller version of that tectonic driver and wasnít all that impressed with it but I didnít put it into an enclosure either and give it a chance or do any measuring/testing. Xmax seems good and the sensitivity isnít too low so if carefully executed in the right enclosure it might sound good assuming the distortion is low. I would say this driver needs an enclosure to sound itís best.

SB Acoustics usually makes pretty decent stuff but that driver requires a big enclosure or use it IB but make sure you separate the back wave from the front wave. It has a lower fs so it might be able to cross lower than the tectonic driver which has an fs of 170.

Any of those SB tweeters should be able to get much louder than these full range drivers will and if you cross the mid to the tweeter so that their dispersion is wide (~2.5k) than you should have an easier time dialing in the response with a DSP after proper polarity and T/A is set.

I think this Morel CCWR254 driver would make an excellent driver crossed with those tweeters but itís obviously a bit more money. Hillbilly recently tested these against some AF GB25 and they did well.

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Old 08-11-2019   #18
 
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Default Re: How low can I cross the SB Acoustics SB29SDAC-C000-4?

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Originally Posted by JCsAudio View Post
I tried the smaller version of that tectonic driver and wasnít all that impressed with it but I didnít put it into an enclosure either and give it a chance or do any measuring/testing. Xmax seems good and the sensitivity isnít too low so if carefully executed in the right enclosure it might sound good assuming the distortion is low. I would say this driver needs an enclosure to sound itís best.



SB Acoustics usually makes pretty decent stuff but that driver requires a big enclosure or use it IB but make sure you separate the back wave from the front wave. It has a lower fs so it might be able to cross lower than the tectonic driver which has an fs of 170.



Any of those SB tweeters should be able to get much louder than these full range drivers will and if you cross the mid to the tweeter so that their dispersion is wide (~2.5k) than you should have an easier time dialing in the response with a DSP after proper polarity and T/A is set.



I think this Morel CCWR254 driver would make an excellent driver crossed with those tweeters but itís obviously a bit more money. Hillbilly recently tested these against some AF GB25 and they did well.


Responded to you here...

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/#/topics/420087


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