System Final Design Thoughts - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Default System Final Design Thoughts

I am planning an audio system for my 2016 Camaro. I think I know what I am going to do but I'd like to run it by the community for some tips. I listen to music with headphones so I am trying to replicate that in my system(don't know if that changes anything).

Here is my planned setup:
Audio Control D-6.1200 6 Channel DSP/AMP
Boss Audio Systems R1100MK Amplifier
Front Speakers: Polk Audio DB6502 6.5" Components
Rear Speakers: JBL GTO629 Premium 6.5-Inch Co-Axial Speaker
Subwoofers: MTX Audio Terminator Series TNE212D

I don't like speakers or tweeters that are very bright as they are unpleasant at loud volumes. That is why I went with the Polk speakers. Right now in my car I already installed the rear coaxials and the subwoofers as well as the boss amp. I still want to know where or if my system has weak points. I can always replace things even if they are already upgraded. I know the rear speakers aren't amazing and neither are the subs but I feel they'll work great. If you guys think otherwise please shoot me some advice on what to do.

I plan on wiring this system by using high-level inputs from the stock amp into the DSP. I was advised not to change the radio in my car as there are many features I would like to keep that are on the stock head unit. The head unit only sends digital signals to the amp which can not be interpreted by anything other than that amp and audio interfaces. I feel that a DSP can do anything an interface can do so I opted out of an audio interface. Maybe I'm wrong. Below is a picture of my planned wiring.

Any thoughts, tips, or advice? All feedback is appreciated.
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Ok, I'll take a stab at this.

Firstly, you will not be able to replicate the headphone experience with anything other than headphones. With headphones, the left ear gets the left channel's sound, and the right ear gets the right channel's sound. In a car, both ears get both channel's sound. So, you will never be able to replicate the sound of headphones without headphones.

However, my guess is that what you like about headphones is that they provide pinpoint imaging. Every sound is very specifically placed in a certain spot. Headphones are great for imaging, but they aren't very good for staging. Staging is the perception of an actual stage in front of you, the vocalist is usually in the center (or close to the center) and you can pick out the different musicians to the right and left. With a good stereo, you get a great stage, everything is laid out in front of you. With headphones the stage is all inside your head, the boundaries are from one ear to the other ear...not in front of you.

In a car, we can get very good staging, and very specific imaging, but it will sound like it's in front of you instead of in between your ears. The point is, the headphone experience is very different than the experience you get by listening to home/car/etc. speakers.

Secondly, rear speakers tend to hurt this illusion more than help. With sound coming from behind you, it's very difficult to get the illusion of a nice stage in front of you, especially when there are high frequency sounds coming from behind you. Sounds won't image well, they won't have a specific location in front of you that you can point to; rear speakers typically will have a negative impact, if the pinpoint imaging that headphones provide is important to you.

Thirdly, since you are using the factory head unit/amp it's important to know if there is any processing going on, and if so, can you turn it off? OEM head units/amps usually have crossovers, time alignment, EQ, etc. built in. Building a nice system off of a signal that was EQ'd based on cheap paper speakers could be difficult. If you want to use the OEM head unit/amp you really want to make sure that you can either defeat all of the processing in it, or use a DSP that can undo that processing. I don't know if the Audio Control DSP/amp you have can do that, so look into that, and if it can't, see if you can set your OEM head unit/amp to have a flat, fullrange, unprocessed signal. If you're DSP can't correct the processing, or if your head unit/amp can't send an unprocessed signal you could have a really challenging time accomplishing what you want to do. You may need to replace the OEM head unit, or pick out a DSP that can correct a processed signal (if the audio control can't).

One final thing, your diagram shows the Boss amp and DSP grounded to different places. Plan on grounding them both to a single place (and make sure it's a good ground, a solid bolt doesn't necessarily mean a good ground) to reduce the possibility of ground loop noise.
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Thanks for the feedback man. I know that most people like to have to stage seem like it’s spread across the dash. This is the main goal of audio enthusiasts. I like my music very different then most people. For example right now in my car I find myself actually bringing the music backwards with the OEM tuning to give me a surrounded feeling. I turn up the rear speakers. It’s almost unheard of as I have not found anyone with the same view. It’s weird, I know, but I feel more immersed. Some say it destroys the sound staging and such and it does but I don’t care about sound staging. Anyways, about the factory amp dsp and EQ settings I am definitely going to look into that. And also thanks for the tip about grounding. Much appreciated. Also the AudioControl DSP has input and output eq’s. I’m pretty sure I can mess with the input EQ to get a nice flat signal to the amplifiers and speakers. Is this the same as a sound processor? Thank you for helping me out.

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I can tell you right now that boss amp wont out out anymore than about 200 watts and it's going to get hot as hell
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

I was gonna say something about the Boss amp. Actually I said something and deleted it. I had this thread open and hadn't seen the new replies.

If you have any trouble with your sub bass - it's probably the amp and not the subs.
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
Thanks for the feedback man. I know that most people like to have to stage seem like itís spread across the dash. This is the main goal of audio enthusiasts. I like my music very different then most people. For example right now in my car I find myself actually bringing the music backwards with the OEM tuning to give me a surrounded feeling. I turn up the rear speakers. Itís almost unheard of as I have not found anyone with the same view. Itís weird, I know, but I feel more immersed. Some say it destroys the sound staging and such and it does but I donít care about sound staging.
I used to be the same way and thought there was no way I'd go without rear speakers. Then I decided to take the advice of most on this forum and put that money toward better front speakers. Then I got a DSP and set it mostly up (it's still a work in progress since I'm learning as I go) and my opinion has totally changed. I've never felt more immersed or "like I'm there" than I do now and my stuff isn't even totally dialed in yet. You may want to give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised. There are a couple nice amplifiers and DSP's for sale right now in the classifieds section that aren't terribly expensive that will do a lot better than that Audiocontrol and Boss. Get some Stereo Integrity TM65's and M25's and I bet you'll be amazed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToNasty View Post
I can tell you right now that boss amp wont out out anymore than about 200 watts and it's going to get hot as hell
The sub output is actually pretty good. The amp does run extremely hot though. I might need to upgrade it. I got the amp and subs before I decided to go all in on the system so I got cheap stuff. Will definitely upgrade later. The amp is running at 130 degrees to the touch. I’m pretty sure that’s too hot. But there hasn’t been any problems with actual output. There is a problem with the amp though. When I start the car the subs won’t actually work until I disconnect and reconnect the high level input signal ground. I don’t know how to fix this. Any thoughts? Is the amp just crappy? I have the turn on wire wired to an ignition switch fuse.

Last edited by Sai Bhakta; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:22 PM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compuwiz1937 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
Thanks for the feedback man. I know that most people like to have to stage seem like it’s spread across the dash. This is the main goal of audio enthusiasts. I like my music very different then most people. For example right now in my car I find myself actually bringing the music backwards with the OEM tuning to give me a surrounded feeling. I turn up the rear speakers. It’s almost unheard of as I have not found anyone with the same view. It’s weird, I know, but I feel more immersed. Some say it destroys the sound staging and such and it does but I don’t care about sound staging.
I used to be the same way and thought there was no way I'd go without rear speakers. Then I decided to take the advice of most on this forum and put that money toward better front speakers. Then I got a DSP and set it mostly up (it's still a work in progress since I'm learning as I go) and my opinion has totally changed. I've never felt more immersed or "like I'm there" than I do now and my stuff isn't even totally dialed in yet. You may want to give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised. There are a couple nice amplifiers and DSP's for sale right now in the classifieds section that aren't terribly expensive that will do a lot better than that Audiocontrol and Boss. Get some Stereo Integrity TM65's and M25's and I bet you'll be amazed.
What makes other DSPs better? What does the D-6.1200 not have or not do? More features? Better tuning? What dsp do you recommend? If price didn’t matter. And in your opinion are $350 woofers and $125 tweeters have that much better of a sound that is worth an extra $300 then the Polk Audio DB-6502? I want to get good quality but I don’t want to pay a lot for perfect if I can get great for a lot cheaper. Maybe that’s stupid.

Last edited by Sai Bhakta; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:41 PM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToNasty View Post
I can tell you right now that boss amp wont out out anymore than about 200 watts and it's going to get hot as hell
The sub output is actually pretty good. The amp does run extremely hot though. I might need to upgrade it. I got the amp and subs before I decided to go all in on the system so I got cheap stuff. Will definitely upgrade later. The amp is running at 130 degrees to the touch. I’m pretty sure that’s too hot. But there hasn’t been any problems with actual output. There is a problem with the amp though. When I start the car the subs won’t actually work until I disconnect and reconnect the high level input signal ground. I don’t know how to fix this. Any thoughts? Is the amp just crappy? I have the turn on wire wired to an ignition switch fuse.
The amp is shitty.
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
I am planning an audio system for my 2016 Camaro. I think I know what I am going to do but I'd like to run it by the community for some tips. I listen to music with headphones so I am trying to replicate that in my system(don't know if that changes anything).

Here is my planned setup:
Audio Control D-6.1200 6 Channel DSP/AMP
Boss Audio Systems R1100MK Amplifier
Front Speakers: Polk Audio DB6502 6.5" Components
Rear Speakers: JBL GTO629 Premium 6.5-Inch Co-Axial Speaker
Subwoofers: MTX Audio Terminator Series TNE212D

I don't like speakers or tweeters that are very bright as they are unpleasant at loud volumes. That is why I went with the Polk speakers. Right now in my car I already installed the rear coaxials and the subwoofers as well as the boss amp. I still want to know where or if my system has weak points. I can always replace things even if they are already upgraded. I know the rear speakers aren't amazing and neither are the subs but I feel they'll work great. If you guys think otherwise please shoot me some advice on what to do.

I plan on wiring this system by using high-level inputs from the stock amp into the DSP. I was advised not to change the radio in my car as there are many features I would like to keep that are on the stock head unit. The head unit only sends digital signals to the amp which can not be interpreted by anything other than that amp and audio interfaces. I feel that a DSP can do anything an interface can do so I opted out of an audio interface. Maybe I'm wrong. Below is a picture of my planned wiring.

Any thoughts, tips, or advice? All feedback is appreciated.
Here is what Iíd do based on my experiences. I would focus on installation treatments for the speakers you have and learning how to tune with the DSP you have. Put your efforts into sound treatments for the door woofers and tuning using a microphone and RTA such as REW. That AudioControl DSP is plenty powerful enough for you to get great sound with so donít change it as it wonít make a difference in your case. The Polk DB6502 components are fine, especially for someone who is new to this so I wouldnít change those so soon but everyone is right about the rear speakers messing up the stage. Changing speakers and equipment is a mistake many novices make when installation and tuning make more of a difference. Better equipment can make a large difference too but not if itís not installed right and tuned correctly. I started out with the original Polk DB6500 with an AudioControl DQ61 and got awesome sound from those. If anything you can upgrade the tweeters later on when you have more experience with installation and tuning.

The Boss amplifier might be a weak link in your system but honestly if it works and produces power than keep it for now and focus on getting what you have to sound itís best. You can upgrade maybe later with something like a Pioneer D8604 or D8704 later on down the line but only if you have the proper electrical to support it, so again installation is key. Iíd keep your subwoofers also as changing those wonít make a huge difference but putting a dedicated monoblock amplifier on them with the proper ofc wire size to support it would make a noticeable impact on performance especially if the amplifier has more than enough RMS power to drive them. Box design and construction will make a very noticeable difference with subwoofer sound qaulity so focusing your efforts on that is a good avenue for squeezing more out of less.

Iíve personally taken what some people would consider subpar equipment and with installation and tuning have made it sound like it costs much, much more. For sound treatment product and installation ideas there is some good information here. https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/

So focus on installation and tuning. Put some sound treatment on those doors and around those woofers. Seal up the holes for better midbass response. Buy a microphone and download REW RTA and learn how to use it. Make sure you have proper polarity with your speakers. Learn how to correctly set time alignment. Everything you need to start with in a microphone kit including the information for tuning is included here. https://testgear.audiofrog.com/ this AudioFrog microphone has everything you need and is well worth the price.

I forgot to mention that an audio interface such as an Amp Pro, JL FIX, or similar can actually make a big difference depending on the vehicle and what the factory radio is doing. In my case it made a very big difference with my truck but not with my CX5 when I had signal from the factory radio.

Sienna SB29 Focal PS165V Alpine SWS10 Mazda CX5 AF GB15 AF GB60 AF GB12 Ford F150 AF GB10 JLC5 Sundown SD310.

Last edited by JCsAudio; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:54 PM..
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Thanks for the tips. I am new to this so I agree about taking steps to get the best system. I have another question which I can’t believe I didn’t realize til now. The d-6.1200 puts out 125 Watts RMS per channel. The JBL coaxials run at 60watt RMS. Do I have to replace the coaxials or can I just keep the level down on the dsp and keep them?
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And also about RTA mics. The d-6.1200 has a built in electronic RTA. Does this act the same as a mic and REW or is this completely different?
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
Thanks for the tips. I am new to this so I agree about taking steps to get the best system. I have another question which I canít believe I didnít realize til now. The d-6.1200 puts out 125 Watts RMS per channel. The JBL coaxials run at 60watt RMS. Do I have to replace the coaxials or can I just keep the level down on the dsp and keep them?
Your speakers will be fine. Part of the tuning process you adjust the level of each speaker. As long as you set a hi pass crossover around 80hz and adjust the speaker level so it doesn't sound distorted you will be fine.
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

If you are looking for a more simple solution you might want to look at the AX-DSP-X. Its a dsp with 10 channels out that comes with a wiring harness that makes it plug and play. While the processer is not as powerful as the Audio control piece you are getting a clean signal with decent processing capabilities without cutting up wiring harnesses. With that you would have to buy a seperate amp. Maybe a five channel amp would be a good upgrade to the Boss Amp.

https://axxessinterfaces.com/product/AX-DSPX-MOST1
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

On a side note you might want to take a look at the JBL MS8. They don't make them anymore but you'll find them used from time to time. It offers hi level inputs, Logic surround sound processing, Built in amplifier, Auto EQ, and eight outputs for amps.

Here is a description from Crutchfield.
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-8OFc9s.../JBL-MS-8.html

And an article on it from pasmag.com
https://www.pasmag.com/technology/te...ms-8-processor
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

This fellow starts off in way that is hard to find fault with.
(One could actually do the sound treatment before stepping into any upgrades... and that is arguable a big upgrade in its on,right)

Quote:
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Here is what Iíd do based on my experiences. I would focus on installation treatments for the speakers you have and learning how to tune with the DSP you have. Put your efforts into sound treatments for the door woofers and tuning using a microphone and RTA such as REW...
...
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Thanks for the advice. I think I’m gonna stick with the D-6.1200 as I’m getting a good deal on it and I think it’s somewhere in the middle of an average audio enthusiast and an advanced one. Next question (sorry guys):

Sound deadening wise. I want to do this in steps so I don’t pay for something I don’t need. Now there a bunch of different things like Dynamat, Soundskins, and Noico that are all in one but there are also cld, ccf, and mlv. I’m thinking what I want to do since road noise isn’t too bad in my car is put Dynamat extreme or noico on the doors first (I know that neither are designed for road noise). If that doesn’t get me where I want it then I’ll add ccf and mlv to the doors and maybe the floor. What do you think? And also what’s better 12sq ft of Dynamat extreme or 36 sq ft of Noico Green Liner. They are the same price. Dynamat is supposed to be great but if I can double or triple Noico layers which would be better? I know this is a big debate and there are plenty of forums on it but for my case what are your opinions? Good plan? Idiotic?
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

I'm sure someone with more experience will be along to break it down for you, but one thing to point out is that the Noico Green Liner is not a CLD, it's basically rectangular pieces of foam with green glue on it. I think you would be more looking at the Noico 80 mil adhesive backed butyl product as an alternative to the Dynamat Extreme. It's also available in a 36 sqft pack, but it would depend on the area you are looking to treat as to how much you would need.

Regarding multiple layers, I believe it's been tested/documented well in the past that multiple layers of a lesser product does not perform better than the single layer of a "higher quality" one.

ETA: Also, some good information here https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/
I recently ordered some of his squares to finish off the treatment in my doors and they appear to be much better quality than the Noico stuff I used elsewhere.

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Thanks. I think I’m gonna get 36sq ft of Dynamat and do the doors the tweeters and with whatever left do the rear coaxials. Now this will cost $150. Noico would cost $60. Is Dynamat worth it or just use Noico 80mil? Or double up on Noico 80mil?
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
Thanks. I think Iím gonna get 36sq ft of Dynamat and do the doors the tweeters and with whatever left do the rear coaxials. Now this will cost $150. Noico would cost $60. Is Dynamat worth it or just use Noico 80mil? Or double up on Noico 80mil?
ResoNix is a better high qaulity product than those you listed and is owned by a long time forum member here called SkizeR https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/

I purchased some ResoNix and itís as good as the long time forum favorite sound deader from Sound Deadener Showdown that is unfortunately out of business now. https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #21
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

I have not used the resonix, but I would be using that resonix or dynamat extreme.

There is another amazon peddled product, and seeing it falling off makes me think it was not great value.
The dynamat is sticking "like _hit to a blanket". (as the Aussies like to say.)
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #22
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai Bhakta View Post
Thanks. I think Iím gonna get 36sq ft of Dynamat and do the doors the tweeters and with whatever left do the rear coaxials. Now this will cost $150. Noico would cost $60. Is Dynamat worth it or just use Noico 80mil? Or double up on Noico 80mil?
As stated above doubling of CLD does very little. CLD converts vibrations into heat. It also adds a small amount of weight and stiffness.

There was a massive forum thread called sound deadening showdown where they tested almost every cld material out at the time and the two best where Knu Koncepts kolosis CLD and from someone in the community made sound deadening tiles that ended up being the best. Unfortunately you can no longer get those tiles.
Thats where Skiz32 (Nick from Apicella Auto sound) came in and created a company called Resonix that is dedicated to sound deadening to fill the gap. There is a thread where he talks about the amount of testing that went into his Product. You should check out his Facebook and Instagram pages to understand the quality of work and high standards that come from his companies.

At the end of the day if you're trying to stick to a budget get the Noico 80mil. But if your ordering anything more expensive than that I would go with Resonix. It costs a little more than Dynamat but you are getting a much better product for the money.
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

I'm far from an expert on this subject, but I have used Noico 80-mil and Noico Liner on my "other" car and I actually had great results with it. I did the doors (inner and outer door skins), rear-deck and even the roof (was having bass-related vibrations from the headliner). It's been on for years and i haven't had any issues whatsoever. It *really* helped with the midbass in the doors (and completely solved the headliner issues). Before I purchased, I did a lot of research and found that Noico generally had very good reviews. Haven't researched the topic since then though.

That being said, I basically chose it as a less-expensive alternative to Dynamat. Again, it's been years and maybe the products have evolved a lot since then. Just giving my personal experience with it.
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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

EDIT #2: Okay I give up, DIYMA is posting my posts in the wrong threads now. Ignore this post. ADMINS FIX YOUR DATABASE PLEASE.

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Default Re: System Final Design Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylineqrt4 View Post
As stated above doubling of CLD does very little. CLD converts vibrations into heat. It also adds a small amount of weight and stiffness.

There was a massive forum thread called sound deadening showdown where they tested almost every cld material out at the time and the two best where Knu Koncepts kolosis CLD and from someone in the community made sound deadening tiles that ended up being the best. Unfortunately you can no longer get those tiles.
Thats where Skiz32 (Nick from Apicella Auto sound) came in and created a company called Resonix that is dedicated to sound deadening to fill the gap. There is a thread where he talks about the amount of testing that went into his Product. You should check out his Facebook and Instagram pages to understand the quality of work and high standards that come from his companies.

At the end of the day if you're trying to stick to a budget get the Noico 80mil. But if your ordering anything more expensive than that I would go with Resonix. It costs a little more than Dynamat but you are getting a much better product for the money.
Spot on good solid advice here and well said ^^^

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