Rear Fill: do you use it? - Page 3 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

View Poll Results: Do you use rear fill?
Yes 437 41.58%
No 614 58.42%
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Old 07-01-2007   #51
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I have it connected, for normal listening I use it. If I want to listen to something very critically or impress someone I turn it off.

My rear fill consits of DLS Iridium 6.5 midbasses running full range. They add a nice little kick to the back of my seat. And they don't sound too bad running full range. Obviously they are lacking treble but not too bad. I originally put them in so i could try doing the Prologic surround, but the H701 adds so much noise and brings the noise floor way up that I gave up on the surround idea.

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Old 07-01-2007   #52
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
If you get a chance, delay them beyond the Haas Effect (Precedence Effect, about 15~20 msec), maybe even play with L-R difference ... a whole new world will open up to you, beyond simple (attenuated) rear fill
I would like to but my current good old fashioned equipment does not provide that feature
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Old 09-02-2007   #53
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by z_accoustics View Post
Is rear fill the dogs bollocks or completely unnescessary?

Thinking of selling my 4ch amp for a 2channel because i'm upgrading my front stage (bye bye rears?).
rear fill.... hmmm. i dont sit in the back and when i go to a concert the stage is in front of me unless i am getting a beer. 4 channel amp? bi amp your components if you have 3 ways. i dont even have rear speakers in my car or truck
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Old 09-02-2007   #54
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by Bluto Blutarsky View Post
I would like to but my current good old fashioned equipment does not provide that feature
but old fashion equipment looks, sounds and usually works better. works as in is easier.
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Old 09-02-2007   #55
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Yeah, but you DO get ambient reflections off of the back wall. That stuff ads to the feeling of the size and space of the room.
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Old 09-02-2007   #56
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Yeah, but you DO get ambient reflections off of the back wall. That stuff ads to the feeling of the size and space of the room.
so i guess a lil'rear fill at low volume is good. but a car has so much glass there is good refection there too. so people love it. yesterday i put a pioneer radio in a bayliner boat and only rear speakers, 4" at that. he wanted it just like that. i guess a $5000 sound system to some one else would look like masterbation
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Old 09-02-2007   #57
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

just so i don't have to type it all over again ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
Big difference between a concert hall and car: size of the acoustic space!

And it's NOT just a relative difference ... there's a real, tangible threshold involved, as defined by the Haas Effect. In a car, there's a real good chance that the natural reflections will not exceed the precedence effect (about 20msec, if memory serves) ... meaning that natural reflections will only tend to smear and confuse the front stage. In a concert hall, there's a real good chance that the natural reflections will exceed the precedence threshold.

So if you delay the rear fill by ~20msec or slightly more, you can create an apparent acoustic space that is much larger ... without confusing or ruining the front stage. This is a good thing Yes, we face the orchestra in a concert hall ... a classic argument against dumb rear fill ... but we also sense that the concert hall is bigger than about 25 cubic feet ... a very good argument in favor of smart rear fill

How to best accomplish it, is perhaps a discussion for another thread. You need a processor with time alignment, and the ability to bandlimit the rears. The difference signal can be formed either actively before the amp (trivial with balanced signals, not even hard with transformers and single-ended signals), or speaker-level after the amp (the classic Hafler matrix was the old, dumb example ... with no time delay, and even only crude attenuation and bandlimiting). But here's an interesting link for further reading:

http://www.mlssa.com/surround/surround3.htm

Of course, you may want to consider the options mentioned above ... Dolby Pro Logic II (invented by Fosgate with an automotive acoustic space in mind), DTS Neo:6, and the new Harman Logic7 processor for the car (which, by the way, is starting to get some very encouraging reviews). All of these options create a multi-channel signal from a 2-channel source, and make very intelligent use of speakers behind your head

I guess my main point is this : all "rear-fill" is not created equal It's important to distinguish what type, before we summarily embrace or dismiss the entire category.
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Old 09-02-2007   #58
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

trivial with balenced outputs, huh? what's the method?
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Old 09-03-2007   #59
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
trivial with balenced outputs, huh? what's the method?
explained in the link provided
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Old 09-03-2007   #60
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

very simple. takes about two minutes if you have a couple sets of y adapters for your balanced lines.

And yes, very worth it.

I'll be leaving for vacation on friday, and am out of town all this current weekend as well. I need to wrap up the 8" driver comparsion, along with a few other things before I leave.

But, as soon as I have a chance, I'll post my review along with some others that have had a chance to listen. Along with more detail on the final configuration and how I accomplished this all.

I'm still tuning, but I like it more as I get it tuned closer and closer.

By the end, it won't be nearly as complicated as it may seem to recreate.

Last edited by backwoods; 09-03-2007 at 02:30 PM..
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Old 09-03-2007   #61
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

what if u ran midbass only rears, that are crossed around 200hz or so? would that take away from the front still?

Mike-

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Old 09-04-2007   #62
 
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theothermike View Post
what if u ran midbass only rears, that are crossed around 200hz or so? would that take away from the front still?

Mike-
I highly doubt it....it'd reinforce most likely. More midbass is good!

As for the general question, I've found rear fill to be a mixed blessing/curse. The curse is obvious....it pulls the stage backwards which you don't want.

The blessing is that it can also highlight certain instruments....hard to explain, but I recall a few songs that sounded more lively because of it. Also, I've found the ambience to improve somewhat as well when tuned correctly.

Unfortunately so far, when the rear fill has been a bonus, it's also been a nuisance as well.

Now it's set lower and stays out of the way.

I think the best summary is if rear fill is done right it will NOT take away from the overall sound quality experience....and rear seat passengers will benefit!
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Old 09-04-2007   #63
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by Fellippe View Post
I highly doubt it....it'd reinforce most likely. More midbass is good!

As for the general question, I've found rear fill to be a mixed blessing/curse. The curse is obvious....it pulls the stage backwards which you don't want.

The blessing is that it can also highlight certain instruments....hard to explain, but I recall a few songs that sounded more lively because of it. Also, I've found the ambience to improve somewhat as well when tuned correctly.

Unfortunately so far, when the rear fill has been a bonus, it's also been a nuisance as well.

Now it's set lower and stays out of the way.

I think the best summary is if rear fill is done right it will NOT take away from the overall sound quality experience....and rear seat passengers will benefit!
you've described one small subset of a much larger category loosely called "rear fill" ...

If the signal is appropriately delayed (at or beyond Haas), the rear will not pull the stage back. Furthermore ... if differenced (L-R), bandlimited and appropriately attenuated, we open up a whole new category of "rear fill" ... the ability to create a much larger acoustic space However, this type of "rear fill" will not be particularly friendly to rear-seat passengers

Last edited by werewolf; 09-04-2007 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 09-04-2007   #64
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
However, this type of "rear fill" will not be particularly friendly to rear-seat passengers

And nobody likes a 7 Year old proffessing as to how it "sounds bad back here" which is usually accoppanied by "LA LA LA LA it sounds Baaaaaaaad Tuuuuurrrrnnnn iiiiit ooooofffffffffffff!"




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Old 09-04-2007   #65
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
you've described one small subset of a much larger category loosely called "rear fill" ...

If the signal is appropriately delayed (at or beyond Haas), the rear will not pull the stage back. Furthermore ... if differenced (L-R), bandlimited and appropriately attenuated, we open up a whole new category of "rear fill" ... the ability to create a much larger acoustic space However, this type of "rear fill" will not be particularly friendly to rear-seat passengers
Would you be referring to surround sound?
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Old 09-04-2007   #66
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by solacedagony View Post
Would you be referring to surround sound?
i'm referring to every other post i made in this thread

... and every other thread like it, where people always quickly jump on the "rear fill sucks!" bandwagon, often without even appreciating the world of differences in the very different categories of rear fill.

It's been my observation that when people argue against rear-fill, what they are arguing against is a full-range, undelayed copy of Left (L) and Right (R) ... which is but one small, and rather uninspired, version of the potential technology.

I've written lots more, on this board and others ... it's not hard to find

Last edited by werewolf; 09-04-2007 at 11:46 AM..
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Old 09-04-2007   #67
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

oh ... and my last two posts refer to an issue that's completely separate from the possibility of mounting midbass drivers in the "circle" or "cone" of confusion behind your outer ears

The "midbass behind you" argument is founded on a reasonable technical premise that you can't tell front from back in the midbass, because the only physical appendage that can differentiate is too small (and this is completely different than saying that sub-bass is not localizable in a car, so why not mount subs behind you). But we're not trying to delay midbass beyond Haas/precedence, or create an ambient soundfield that attempts to mimic a larger acoustic space by mounting midbass drivers elsewhere in the "circle/cone of confusion."

Bottom line : LOTS of various arguments and discussions concerning the mounting of speakers behind your head Delayed, bandlimited, attenuated and perhaps even L-R(differenced) rear-fill for ambient enhancement ... midbass in the circle/cone of confusion, while still preserving ITD ... sub-bass as non-consequential almost no matter where ... have i missed any?
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Old 09-04-2007   #68
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

I've tried duplicating what was mentioned in the MLSSA article awhile back and found the results to be somewhat dissapointing given the extra investment in equipment (rear speakers, 2 extra channels of processing and amplification).

I think it may have to do with the excessive amount of EQ necessary to match corresponding front and rear speakers, or perhaps my method of signal steering wasn't sufficient for a car. I tried both wiring the rear speakers out of phase, and as suggested a time delay of 16ms and 24 ms... with the out of phase signal signal providing better decorrelation and ambiance.

I do have high hopes though for logic7 processing in JBL's upcoming ms-8, as I've seen a few comments regarding how it was specifically designed for cars.

A speaker is only as good as the room you put it in.
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Old 09-04-2007   #69
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by npdang View Post
I've tried duplicating what was mentioned in the MLSSA article awhile back and found the results to be somewhat dissapointing given the extra investment in equipment (rear speakers, 2 extra channels of processing and amplification).

I think it may have to do with the excessive amount of EQ necessary to match corresponding front and rear speakers, or perhaps my method of signal steering wasn't sufficient for a car. I tried both wiring the rear speakers out of phase, and as suggested a time delay of 16ms and 24 ms... with the out of phase signal signal providing better decorrelation and ambiance.

I do have high hopes though for logic7 processing in JBL's upcoming ms-8, as I've seen a few comments regarding how it was specifically designed for cars.
Did you try the left minus right: Delayed, bandlimited, attenuated and perhaps even L-R(differenced) rear-fill for ambient enhancement ...



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Old 09-04-2007   #70
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

Hey werewolf I have been having a tough time attempting to figure out how to wire RCAs up with the instruction from the site could you shed some light on this for me ????

A surround sound processor is unnecessary for generating the L-R surround signal. The balanced inputs of the Yamaha YDP2006 can be used to subtract the left and right stereo signals thus forming the L-R signal simply by rewiring a commonly available two-female-to-one-male XLR Y adapter. If you have balanced outputs from your preamp you simply wire the + lead of one female XLR (from the left channel) to the + lead of the male output XLR. Next you wire the + lead of the other female XLR connector (from the right channel) to the - lead of the male output XLR. You will also need a one-female-to-two-male XLR Y adapter to split this signal to feed the two balanced inputs of the YDP2006.

If you have unbalanced preamp outputs you'll have to cut off the two female XLR connectors of the first XLR Y adapter and wire up two RCA phono plugs such that one goes to the + lead of the male output XLR and the other to the - lead to yield the L-R surround signal when connected to the equalizer inputs through the second XLR Y adapter.

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Old 09-04-2007   #71
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

The first thing you have to understand is how a "balanced input" works. A balanced input on a preamp or processor is different than an RCA (single-ended or unbalanced) input, in that the balanced input is NOT "expecting" one of the input conductors to be at ground (or close) potential. An RCA input, on the other hand, is "expecting" the ring or shield input to be at ground ... in other words, no signal.

This needs to be clear first, if not ... let me know.

Next, we have to understand what the balanced input IS expecting. The balanced input is expecting a signal on one input, and the inverse of that signal on the other input of the same connector. In other words ... a "hot" signal on both inputs of the same connector. The input circuitry will actually observe the difference between these two hot signals on the balanced input, thereby cancelling noise that is "common" between them.

So far, so good?

Finally, we can fool the balanced input by supplying two "hot" signals that we want to subtract. Since the input circuitry is going to subtract the two signals on the same balanced connector, we supply one with L+ and the other with R+ (instead of L-, which the balanced circuit would otherwise be expecting).

So ... instead of wiring L+ and L- to the balanced input connector (which would describe a typical, balanced connection), we wire L+ (from the left channel RCA) and R+ (from the right channel RCA) to the same balanced input connector on the preamp/processor. All processing done inside the preamp/processor will now be operating on (L+)-(R+), instead of the pure left signal known as (L+)-(L-).

Last edited by werewolf; 09-04-2007 at 01:53 PM..
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Old 09-04-2007   #72
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

So this would have to be done before it gets to the processor??? or Before the Amp???

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Old 09-04-2007   #73
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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So this would have to be done before it gets to the processor??? or Before the Amp???
well, if you want to play with variable delay on the L-R signal, yes.

Although i suppose you could separately delay the left and right signals by approx ~20msec, and otherwise process them independently (bandlimiting, attenuation), then form the algebraic L-R difference at the amplifier inputs ...
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Old 09-05-2007   #74
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

No RF for me. Not worth the trouble, IMO.

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Old 09-05-2007   #75
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Default Re: Rear Fill: do you use it?

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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
No RF for me. Not worth the trouble, IMO.
Have you heard rearfill done RIGHT????

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