Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117? - Page 106 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 10-02-2014   #2626
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Where are you seeing that Auto EQ uses a parametric equalizer? Much less a 9 band specifically? I haven't seen that information anywhere reputable, and it just doesn't make sense to me given the built-in 16 band L/R EQ. The only reference I saw to "parametric" anywhere were from a couple of random websites (using the same text) not associated with Pioneer or any reputable resellers.


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Old 10-02-2014   #2627
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

AutoEQ uses the bands available in the unit. Nothing else.

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Old 10-02-2014   #2628
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Just to clarify, per the manual. When you run Auto TA & EQ the unit resets the fade/balance back to center and the graphic EQ is switched to "Flat".

As far as the EQ settings, this is how it breaks down.

EQ 1 - Curve Selection
Superbass
Powerful
Natural
Vocal
Flat
Custom 1 (Source Dependent)
Custom 2 (Universal)

EQ 2 - Curve Adjustment
16 Band L/R Graphic Adjustment
Max. +6 to -6 dB adjustments available dependent on selected EQ Curve
"Flat" can not be adjusted (that is what the other curves are for)
Available Bands: 20-31.5-50-80-125-200-315-500-800-1.25k-2k-3.15k-5k-8k-12.5k-20k


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Old 10-02-2014   #2629
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
Available Bands: 20-31.5-50-80-125-200-315-500-800-1.25k-2k-3.15k-5k-8k-12.5k-20k
Wish they removed the 20Hz and 20k and replaced them with 63 and 100Hz :P

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Old 10-02-2014   #2630
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Wish they removed the 20Hz and 20k and replaced them with 63 and 100Hz :P
I agree. It certainly could have helped my tuning. Though, I do like having adjustment at both "extremes" of the spectrum.


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Old 10-02-2014   #2631
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Wish they removed the 20Hz and 20k and replaced them with 63 and 100Hz :P
I was thinking the DEX-P1R had at least one of those, but it didn't...which makes sense because then the band spacing wouldn't have been uniform. It offered the same bands except its lowest started at 50 and its highest ended at 12.5k. Aside from gaining L/R ability, the 80PRS picked up 20 & 31.5 at the bottom and 20k at the top.
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Old 10-02-2014   #2632
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Even the P99 EQ is limited, a standalone DSP will always be preferable. A graphic EQ should should have 1/6oct spacing to be able to compete with parametric EQs. Especially the region 100-200Hz is problematic in most installs without PEQ. Still, the 80prs is the best entry level SQ unit you can get imo

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Old 10-03-2014   #2633
 
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rton20s View Post
Where are you seeing that Auto EQ uses a parametric equalizer? Much less a 9 band specifically? I haven't seen that information anywhere reputable, and it just doesn't make sense to me given the built-in 16 band L/R EQ. The only reference I saw to "parametric" anywhere were from a couple of random websites (using the same text) not associated with Pioneer or any reputable resellers.

I think I might have got that from some third party site or something but you are right Pioneer doesn't really say much about it at all. More than that I haven't been happy with the results of the auto eq either so that could be partly why. I let the installer do it once and it came out harsh and mid rangey. I redid it with the mic on the driver's headrest. It came out ok (just ok, not wow.) but when I sat in the passenger seat it sucked. I saw some guys use a strap and attached the mic to the strap in between the seats. I also thought of sticking it to my camera tripod and putting that right above the armrest. I hate that it seems to leave this huge spike around 750 hz. Not sure why it does that. I thought that maybe it was because the other eq was engaged when the installer did it but even though it is less that spike is still there after my last tune. In theory it should come out pretty wow without me touching it. As far is 16 bands... I would have prefered parametric for this. Sometimes you just need tighter Q. Also .25 or smaller steps on the gain side would have been a big plus. There are very few raw drivers that don't need that kind of tweaking. I wish someone made a unit with a digital output. I probably would have done that instead. The computer thinks it is good but it really is not! I can make it better after the fact but of course I am loosing intelligibility doing that. Thoughts.
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Old 10-03-2014   #2634
 
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

I just decided I am going to try it with the camera tripod. If the mic is more there then it might hear the mid range thing that I am. Also time alignment will be more neutral. I often sit in the passenger seat on long trips too as we trade drivers so it is important to me that it is good in both seats. No reason it shouldn't be.
Guys, I am intending to go to a digital processor eventually as I do need more fine control. I hate the added conversions. It actually makes a huge difference and particularly it tends to resolve higher frequencies less and becomes much more harsh due to the added distortion. Have any of you heard of any of the manufacturers planning to re implement a digital output option for some of their head units? I hate replacing something that has nothing wrong with it but I really don't want to convert back to analogue and then go back to digital to process and back. Analogue processing is an other option but I need low and high in stereo and sub in mono (or stereo and I can mono it at the amp).
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Old 10-03-2014   #2635
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

When you're balancing L/R above ~400 the hotter side jumps around from side to side. Just easier to manage with a GEQ. I'm all for the concept of an 1/6 oct eq, I would love to experiment with it. But from a practical stand point it would make using the eq 10X more difficult. At least for those of us tuning by ear. An 80% accuracy on is it better or worse at 1/6 oct at a 0.3db resolution, that's at least a years worth of sustained tuning at 1/6.

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Old 10-05-2014   #2636
 
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

When you say jumps from side to side are you referring to the fact that some midrange frequencies like the 400hz region tend to resonate in cars a lot? I have read what you said a few times to try to understand what you meant and this is all I could come up with. Actually that is a very common frequency group to cause resonations in general because absorbing them is a little more difficult than higher frequencies. That is actually a good example of where a more surgical approach to eq would be more beneficial. If you looked at it on a finer detail spectrum analyser (as an example SIA Smaart) you would notice that the grouping of frequencies affected is very small as is common with a resonance like that. It may only require 1.25db of attenuation to offset it but if you took a slider on a graphic eq because the grouping is so large you may need to attenuate 5 db or so and boost the two adjacent sliders in order to compensate correctly. This works because of the fact that eq does it's adjustments in a curve and that curve actually overlaps with the intended frequency set of the adjacent set. If you could get in and grab a much smaller frequency set you could do you minor alteration thereby offsetting a far smaller section of the spectrum and thereby maintain better linearity. The other thing that a system like Smaart would tell you is that at that frequency (the discussed resonance that is) coherence is at issue because reducing the volume didn't stop the sound from resonating which is actually holding the tone longer that it is supposed to. It is just doing it at a lowered spl as compared to the surrounding frequencies so it seems more natural. Obviously where possible eliminating a resonance like that is key but as I say easier said than done. 400hz likes to resonate.
As far as skill level. We have a saying "It isn't rocket science". That laughable part is it is accoustic science which is just as complicated but unlike rocket science we don't have to shoot metal into space in order to perform experiments to gain a better understanding of it. It looks like you have the tools in general assuming the bit ten does parametric eq. Make sure you save your favorite settings but go ahead make some changes and see what they do. The best way I found to zero in on an annoying frequency is at MODERATE monitoring volume (so as not to damage either your hearing or the gear) take a parametric filter set to a wider bandwidth at a center frequency that is in the realm of what you are hearing and "goose it". As you change the bandwidth to a finer setting you will find you loose the annoying tone. What has happened is that the annoying tone is now outside your chosen bandwidth so by adjusting your center frequency find where it is loudest and repeat that process until you have as close to just that frequency you were looking for as possible. Now you can attenuate it back to where it sounds natural. Not how little adjustment it required to make it sound natural. Also I will tell you that over time you get more adept at hearing finer detail and that .25db change becomes very noticeable. It is all just a matter of practice just like baseball really. I should mention this just for anyone who doesn't know but crossover settings are there to stop the wrong part of the spectrum going to the wrong driver. They are in fact finite and actually the correct settings are best determined by assessing the properties of each driver and comparing them directly. It is not something that has anything to do with artistic choice!!! In fact in some applications those settings are very specific and they are what they are because that is what the entire apparatus is designed around. The short version of all of this is that if your crossover point for you tweeters is 3.15khz, @ 24db/octave no you can't use 1khz with a 12db/octave as a crossover point instead. The speakers aren't designed to work that way. If you are missing part of the spectrum because of the efficiency of your drivers in that range then you really need to look at different driver configurations. A reasonable component set would be relatively even from 100hz to 15khz at the very least. You will not affect any better sonic performance by trying to make drivers operate outside of their designed operating frequency set so just don't do it and save yourself the heartache of the burnt up driver due to your own negligence. I actually heard someone talking about taking a set of Focal KRX2's and crossing them at 1khz. I cringed. Firstly, the tweeter would take on a very harsh tone but the next thing to happen would be the tweeter's death as one turned it up. Naturally once you get it sounding right the first thing we want to do is crank it right. Aramide fibre (kevlar) or not... Ouch!
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Old 10-05-2014   #2637
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

First up, thank you for taking the time to write up that mass of text. If you break up that one running thought into different issues/topics, chances are you will use the enter key off and on while typing, thereby making it easier to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobERacer View Post
When you say jumps from side to side are you referring to the fact that some midrange frequencies like the 400hz region tend to resonate in cars a lot? I have read what you said a few times to try to understand what you meant and this is all I could come up with.
No, I'm talking about balancing L/R response not resonance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobERacer View Post
If you looked at it on a finer detail spectrum analyser (as an example SIA Smaart) you would notice that the grouping of frequencies affected is very small as is common with a resonance like that. It may only require 1.25db of attenuation to offset it but if you took a slider on a graphic eq because the grouping is so large you may need to attenuate 5 db or so and boost the two adjacent sliders in order to compensate correctly. This works because of the fact that eq does it's adjustments in a curve and that curve actually overlaps with the intended frequency set of the adjacent set. If you could get in and grab a much smaller frequency set you could do you minor alteration thereby offsetting a far smaller section of the spectrum and thereby maintain better linearity. The other thing that a system like Smaart would tell you is that at that frequency (the discussed resonance that is) coherence is at issue because reducing the volume didn't stop the sound from resonating which is actually holding the tone longer that it is supposed to. It is just doing it at a lowered spl as compared to the surrounding frequencies so it seems more natural. Obviously where possible eliminating a resonance like that is key but as I say easier said than done. 400hz likes to resonate.
Not sure what you're trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobERacer View Post
As far as skill level. We have a saying "It isn't rocket science". That laughable part is it is accoustic science which is just as complicated but unlike rocket science we don't have to shoot metal into space in order to perform experiments to gain a better understanding of it. It looks like you have the tools in general assuming the bit ten does parametric eq. Make sure you save your favorite settings but go ahead make some changes and see what they do. The best way I found to zero in on an annoying frequency is at MODERATE monitoring volume (so as not to damage either your hearing or the gear) take a parametric filter set to a wider bandwidth at a center frequency that is in the realm of what you are hearing and "goose it". As you change the bandwidth to a finer setting you will find you loose the annoying tone. What has happened is that the annoying tone is now outside your chosen bandwidth so by adjusting your center frequency find where it is loudest and repeat that process until you have as close to just that frequency you were looking for as possible. Now you can attenuate it back to where it sounds natural. Not how little adjustment it required to make it sound natural. Also I will tell you that over time you get more adept at hearing finer detail and that .25db change becomes very noticeable. It is all just a matter of practice just like baseball really. I should mention this just for anyone who doesn't know but crossover settings are there to stop the wrong part of the spectrum going to the wrong driver. They are in fact finite and actually the correct settings are best determined by assessing the properties of each driver and comparing them directly. It is not something that has anything to do with artistic choice!!!
Too complicated. I just listen and am intuitive enough with the eq to know what to correct and my ears tell me how much is enough. In real world 'any issue' is rarely about adjusting a particular frequency. Correcting an issue is often a 2-3 step process where you will adjust more than just a single frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobERacer View Post
In fact in some applications those settings are very specific and they are what they are because that is what the entire apparatus is designed around. The short version of all of this is that if your crossover point for you tweeters is 3.15khz, @ 24db/octave no you can't use 1khz with a 12db/octave as a crossover point instead. The speakers aren't designed to work that way. If you are missing part of the spectrum because of the efficiency of your drivers in that range then you really need to look at different driver configurations. A reasonable component set would be relatively even from 100hz to 15khz at the very least. You will not affect any better sonic performance by trying to make drivers operate outside of their designed operating frequency set so just don't do it and save yourself the heartache of the burnt up driver due to your own negligence. I actually heard someone talking about taking a set of Focal KRX2's and crossing them at 1khz. I cringed. Firstly, the tweeter would take on a very harsh tone but the next thing to happen would be the tweeter's death as one turned it up. Naturally once you get it sounding right the first thing we want to do is crank it right. Aramide fibre (kevlar) or not... Ouch!
I give up!!

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Old 10-05-2014   #2638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobERacer View Post
When you say jumps from side to side are you referring to the fact that some midrange frequencies like the 400hz region tend to resonate in cars a lot? I have read what you said a few times to try to understand what you meant and this is all I could come up with. Actually that is a very common frequency group to cause resonations in general because absorbing them is a little more difficult than higher frequencies. That is actually a good example of where a more surgical approach to eq would be more beneficial. If you looked at it on a finer detail spectrum analyser (as an example SIA Smaart) you would notice that the grouping of frequencies affected is very small as is common with a resonance like that. It may only require 1.25db of attenuation to offset it but if you took a slider on a graphic eq because the grouping is so large you may need to attenuate 5 db or so and boost the two adjacent sliders in order to compensate correctly. This works because of the fact that eq does it's adjustments in a curve and that curve actually overlaps with the intended frequency set of the adjacent set. If you could get in and grab a much smaller frequency set you could do you minor alteration thereby offsetting a far smaller section of the spectrum and thereby maintain better linearity. The other thing that a system like Smaart would tell you is that at that frequency (the discussed resonance that is) coherence is at issue because reducing the volume didn't stop the sound from resonating which is actually holding the tone longer that it is supposed to. It is just doing it at a lowered spl as compared to the surrounding frequencies so it seems more natural. Obviously where possible eliminating a resonance like that is key but as I say easier said than done. 400hz likes to resonate.
As far as skill level. We have a saying "It isn't rocket science". That laughable part is it is accoustic science which is just as complicated but unlike rocket science we don't have to shoot metal into space in order to perform experiments to gain a better understanding of it. It looks like you have the tools in general assuming the bit ten does parametric eq. Make sure you save your favorite settings but go ahead make some changes and see what they do. The best way I found to zero in on an annoying frequency is at MODERATE monitoring volume (so as not to damage either your hearing or the gear) take a parametric filter set to a wider bandwidth at a center frequency that is in the realm of what you are hearing and "goose it". As you change the bandwidth to a finer setting you will find you loose the annoying tone. What has happened is that the annoying tone is now outside your chosen bandwidth so by adjusting your center frequency find where it is loudest and repeat that process until you have as close to just that frequency you were looking for as possible. Now you can attenuate it back to where it sounds natural. Not how little adjustment it required to make it sound natural. Also I will tell you that over time you get more adept at hearing finer detail and that .25db change becomes very noticeable. It is all just a matter of practice just like baseball really. I should mention this just for anyone who doesn't know but crossover settings are there to stop the wrong part of the spectrum going to the wrong driver. They are in fact finite and actually the correct settings are best determined by assessing the properties of each driver and comparing them directly. It is not something that has anything to do with artistic choice!!! In fact in some applications those settings are very specific and they are what they are because that is what the entire apparatus is designed around. The short version of all of this is that if your crossover point for you tweeters is 3.15khz, @ 24db/octave no you can't use 1khz with a 12db/octave as a crossover point instead. The speakers aren't designed to work that way. If you are missing part of the spectrum because of the efficiency of your drivers in that range then you really need to look at different driver configurations. A reasonable component set would be relatively even from 100hz to 15khz at the very least. You will not affect any better sonic performance by trying to make drivers operate outside of their designed operating frequency set so just don't do it and save yourself the heartache of the burnt up driver due to your own negligence. I actually heard someone talking about taking a set of Focal KRX2's and crossing them at 1khz. I cringed. Firstly, the tweeter would take on a very harsh tone but the next thing to happen would be the tweeter's death as one turned it up. Naturally once you get it sounding right the first thing we want to do is crank it right. Aramide fibre (kevlar) or not... Ouch!
... what?

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Old 10-06-2014   #2639
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
First up, thank you for taking the time to write up that mass of text. If you break up that one running thought into different issues/topics, chances are you will use the enter key off and on while typing, thereby making it easier to read.

I give up!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
... what?
I'm glad someone else said it before me. I didn't want Rob to think I was picking on him. I was getting to about the third sentence in his posts and then going cross eyed.


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Old 10-06-2014   #2640
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

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Wish they removed the 20Hz and 20k and replaced them with 63 and 100Hz :P
Can we get a hell yeah! I fully agree.

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Old 10-07-2014   #2641
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

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Can we get a hell yeah! I fully agree.
Where do you have you vifas crossed? I have those tweets and didn't like how they sounded crossed at 2500 like some have suggested.
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Old 10-07-2014   #2642
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

4 Khz is the sweet spot for the Vifa. 3khz is about the lowest I would run them that too on 24db slopes.

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Old 10-07-2014   #2643
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

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Originally Posted by sqnut View Post
4 Khz is the sweet spot for the Vifa. 3khz is about the lowest I would run them that too on 24db slopes.
Yeah pretty much. I have mine crossed at 3700Hz 24dB. These drivers are crazy good above 4kHz.

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Old 10-07-2014   #2644
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

I think it could do with a little more sparkle up at the very top but maybe I just need to run then on axis instead of in my factor dash location. Running mine with silver flutes.
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Old 10-07-2014   #2645
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

^^ The silver flutes are a great mid bass mate for the vifa. The flutes really shine when you put them in small pods within the doors

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Old 10-07-2014   #2646
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

Wish I had space for that. My window missing the magnet of the silver flutes by mere millimeters.
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Old 10-07-2014   #2647
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

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Originally Posted by ghionw View Post
Where do you have you vifas crossed? I have those tweets and didn't like how they sounded crossed at 2500 like some have suggested.
I moved on from the Vifa's to scan. When I did have them I couldn't go lower than 3k without getting harsh so to speak.

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Old 10-08-2014   #2648
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

I like mine at 4k and running my silver flute up to 3.15k. I know there is a gap, but my untrained ears can't tell. I guess I will fix it one day when I buy a mic and actually try to tune it myself.
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Old 10-08-2014   #2649
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

My DEH-80PRS auto tune packed up my subwoofer and shipped it back to Parts Express.
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Old 10-10-2014   #2650
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Default Re: Pioneer's SPANKING new DEH-80PRS. Pioneer's knockout punch to Alpine's CDA-117?

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Originally Posted by percy072 View Post
Am I missing something...or will the 80prs in fact not allow for independently setting one mid out of phase with the other??
Not sure if someone answered you. Is everything separated for L & R? If L&R is combined the yes both mids will have the same polarity, i.e. both REV or NOR. Once you separate for L/R drivers then you can set one mid in REV and the other NOR.

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