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Old 07-07-2014   #226
 
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by Regus View Post
Is there a reference track that we could all use for this or is pink noise sufficient?



Would the use of an acoustic filter i.e. bandpass enclosure be a way of confirming that distortion is not the culprit?



I'd like to hear more on this hypothesis of yours and also your thoughts on whether this would be as pronounced in a car as in a room with the speakers some way away from the source of the reflections. There is a significant difference in terms of height in a car compared to the average room, so maybe the triangulation would be less of an issue - presumably we could test this in a room if we could use something to absorb and attenuate any reflected energy, or find a narrow room where the speakers can be placed very close to the walls whilst maintaining the same degree of separation from the listener - I actually thought about using the under stairs cupboard as a "car simulator" (narrow width, sloping wall to the front) but it's too full if junk right now to do this!

I'd say that you run into group delay issues with a bandpass, and the change in group delay may contribute or not at all, in enhancing all derivative distortion above the crossing frequency.


so, you deal with other problems at the same time as THD, and intermodulation distortion.


I personally don't experience much localization in a car below 300 hz, using test tones and well damped mounting locations.


this itself, flies in the face of convention and those golden ears who can localize 80 hz are possibly not aware of all the artifacts of a reproduction system contributing sounds above 80 hz, even if their crossover is believable and the system at lower volumes is highly defined.

I can probably attribute my lack of precision at 300 hz, to the average listening level I prefer to have my sound stage appear.

The louder it gets, the more the music takes on a "fill in all holes" quality, and the less particular I get over things like stage pull down, or to the rear.

and don't think of it as a neophyte's attempt at sound quality either, it's that same crosstalk that makes midbass palpable from both sides of the car, that also forces some destabilization of the image because of the higher distortion profiles of smaller diameter cones being made to play 300 hz and below.
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Old 07-09-2014   #227
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

OK, how about this? If the midbass is crossed below the point it starts beaming, we don't need it on axis, so could we try listening to them off-axis and see if the localisation remains? I guess it depends on whether the distortion frequencies that are producing the height cues (if this is indeed the case) are attenuated off-axis or not - I've not looked into this in detail (beaming frequency versus diameter), I'm just brainstorming, so feel free to shoot holes in my argument. In any case, it would be easy to try this and see what difference, if any, it makes in practice. (N.B. I am planning to try out some OPSODIS experiments for myself, but I don't think I'll have an opportunity to do this until mid-August at the earliest).
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Old 07-09-2014   #228
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by Regus View Post
OK, how about this? If the midbass is crossed below the point it starts beaming, we don't need it on axis, so could we try listening to them off-axis and see if the localisation remains? I guess it depends on whether the distortion frequencies that are producing the height cues (if this is indeed the case) are attenuated off-axis or not - I've not looked into this in detail (beaming frequency versus diameter), I'm just brainstorming, so feel free to shoot holes in my argument. In any case, it would be easy to try this and see what difference, if any, it makes in practice. (N.B. I am planning to try out some OPSODIS experiments for myself, but I don't think I'll have an opportunity to do this until mid-August at the earliest).
I don't think beaming is a consideration at these frequencies. Phase dictates our perception at these frequencies, so the interaural time delay determines location.

That basically means that two midbasses to your left and to your right will have the widest stage, and the *depth* of the stage will be dictated by how far they are from you.

I keep posting this Opsodis pic, but they invented this, so I think they know what they're doing:





The fact that the *height* of the midbasses makes a difference was unexpected. The frequencies are too long for the shape of our ears to make a difference, and ITD are barely affected by height. So that means that we're picking up the echo (my hunch) or we're insanely sensitive to ITDs.



To confirm if this is the case, try walking down a hallway with your eyes closed. Even with your eyes closed, you can perceive that the space is small. Methinks that perception is due to your brain picking up the echoes. Basically our perception of the size of the space is from those echoes.



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Old 07-09-2014   #229
 
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post


I don't think beaming is a consideration at these frequencies. Phase dictates our perception at these frequencies, so the interaural time delay determines location.

That basically means that two midbasses to your left and to your right will have the widest stage, and the *depth* of the stage will be dictated by how far they are from you.

I keep posting this Opsodis pic, but they invented this, so I think they know what they're doing:





The fact that the *height* of the midbasses makes a difference was unexpected. The frequencies are too long for the shape of our ears to make a difference, and ITD are barely affected by height. So that means that we're picking up the echo (my hunch) or we're insanely sensitive to ITDs.



To confirm if this is the case, try walking down a hallway with your eyes closed. Even with your eyes closed, you can perceive that the space is small. Methinks that perception is due to your brain picking up the echoes. Basically our perception of the size of the space is from those echoes.


what you call echoes, I call two through 5 order distortion.

and I think you're on to something here.

the "rules" as it pertains to ITD and intensity differences, is that there is no exact cutoff point, it's more of a general mound.... because we all have variable ear canals and the pinnae shape, etc. will determine where each of us rolls off.

A judge might be able to define a greater precision in your stage than yourself, because he has not only sharpened his "audio wits" but has natural ability based on genetics and physical traits.

this is going to sound funny, but I used to be a competitive pool player and I saw a few characteristics based on facial geometry and arm-eye coordination, that allowed me to assess whether I should attempt to up a bet or not.


being a good student of people, means you may erroneously depict a condition of a person, based on sample size, that is possibly true but may not be, haha..

anyways, this all pertains to whether or not my Optimum Sound Distribution, or whatever, is the same as yours.


what may seem like low playing woofers to one guy, may be entirely missed by another guy, and both guys are genius-level listening judges.

so let's not get too caught up in the minutiae, when we attempt to produce a wide AND deep stage for our maximum enjoyment. I have found myself becoming quite adept at using my own aural "fill in the blank" with pseudo-center, or phantom centers using horns, and I also enjoy the tight narrative of dash mounted midranges, it's all pretty much stereo at this point...
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Old 07-10-2014   #230
 
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

So, is it safe for me to assume that one mid-bass in the front part of my front doors and one mid-bass in the front part my rear doors will sum to create the effect of one larger mid-bass to my 9 and 3 o'clock like a proper OPSODIS arrangement would have?

I will have time alignment to correct for the PLD from left to right but both left side mid-bass woofers will be on one channel and the right side will be on one channel so no T/A between same side front door and rear door.
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Old 07-10-2014   #231
 
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by MetricMuscle View Post
So, is it safe for me to assume that one mid-bass in the front part of my front doors and one mid-bass in the front part my rear doors will sum to create the effect of one larger mid-bass to my 9 and 3 o'clock like a proper OPSODIS arrangement would have?

I will have time alignment to correct for the PLD from left to right but both left side mid-bass woofers will be on one channel and the right side will be on one channel so no T/A between same side front door and rear door.
Ignore my previous reply, I miss read.

I am not sure if you can get away with not having TA on all drivers. I would think that would be less than optimal. You could try, but physical placement will have a huge effect on outcome in my opinion.

Last edited by Orion525iT; 07-10-2014 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 07-10-2014   #232
 
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post
No, they will not "sum" in that way. The only thing that will get you Opsodis-like arrangement for midbass is Opsodis-like placement. You can't alter ITDs outside of physical placement.
I'm sorry but your answer does not support my idea and plan so I will choose not to accept it.

The OPSODIS location will require me to cut my door panel, which I'm not 100% against, but I'll try my OE locations first and see how satisfied I am.

So even if the front door location and rear door location have equal path length to my ears it won't sum and work?
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Old 07-10-2014   #233
 
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by MetricMuscle View Post
I'm sorry but your answer does not support my idea and plan so I will choose not to accept it.

The OPSODIS location will require me to cut my door panel, which I'm not 100% against, but I'll try my OE locations first and see how satisfied I am.

So even if the front door location and rear door location have equal path length to my ears it won't sum and work?
Unless the rear door location is actually physically in a wider position, thus reducing the angle, to keep it at the same distance, I don't think you'll see any benefit (aside of more output). ITD will be the same. At that point, you might as well just do the front door location.

The reason TA is important is that it allows you to place the drivers at a reduced angle, without necessitating that they are placed at a physically wider position. The angle reduction increases the ITD, and distances can be whatever. Ideally you want them wide and at reduced angle, but a car is only so wide, and the doors only so deep.

I would not think of it as summing really. It's a possible cheat to be able to place smaller drivers at a more favorable Opsodis-like position, with the hope that precedent effect masks the less than ideal positioning, and less than ideal ITD of the additional (front of door, ect) midbasses. Additional benefits may be "spreading of the chaos" and more output.

Again, this is mostly hypothesis at this point. The testing I did inside seemed to confirm and hold promise, but that may change in actual application. I wouldn't go hacking my car to bits, unless I really wanted to try something different.
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Old 07-10-2014   #234
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Originally Posted by MetricMuscle View Post
I'm sorry but your answer does not support my idea and plan so I will choose not to accept it.

The OPSODIS location will require me to cut my door panel, which I'm not 100% against, but I'll try my OE locations first and see how satisfied I am.

So even if the front door location and rear door location have equal path length to my ears it won't sum and work?


In my car the stock location in the rear door is a *little* bit better.

Main downside is that I would have to do a four-way to make it work, because the distance from the front to the back is so far.

Also, ignore the speaker in the trunk, I made this illustration for another thread.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 04-07-2015   #235
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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i think the biggest problem with horn loading a midbass that is in-line with your hip area in a car is physically putting it there. even if you can mount it under the seat and squirm the throat\mouth up the B pillar it would still be extremely dificult - and most likely a 1-off thing that is not very easy to modifiy and perfect.

personally, putting a solid midbass in a rear-door that is deadened properly and crossed around 300hz is a very simple way to achieve the added width.

what i am doing with my bro's ride:

tweets in the sails. 5000ish Hz and up
midrange in the front OEM door location in a 3D printed ported pod (hopefully) - 300 to 5000 hz or so
midbass in the rear doors - 50 to 300 hz or so

im hoping that using conventional tweeter placement and then as on-axis as i can get midrange in the OEM door location - keeping the speakers as wide as possible - will get the image nice and stable.


as far as the tweeters\midrange oriented in opsodis-like arrangements (we didnt measure the angles and such) the stage\imaging did NOT work. when i listened to the IASCA CD, the vocals that were center were AWESOME and tight. but as soon as there was supposed to be something, like the pink panther track, the triangle should be far right. but the triangle was located to the front where the tweeters were positioned. as soon as we moved the tweeters wide, the triangle moved with them and it sounded like it had width in the upper frequencies. after doing this, i felt the center was never as good. i assume that i could have gotten the center tighter with EQ\CROSSOVER\TA tuning, but i dont think i could have gotten width without physically moving the tweeters.

if that makes sense
I couldn't attach the graphic, but the opsodis frequency vs angle graph shows that a single-driver frequency response of 300-5k would not be optimal (it hits red zones). Since I have read similar xo points for several opsodis attempts IN THIS THREAD, I am thinking that this may be partly responsible for some of the 'poor' results...
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

Interesting, installing speakers in my 2008 Jetta soon and it has the same door setup. Currently have a cheap set of cadence qrs6k3 3 ways ran off 2 channels of an alpine pdx-4.100 and an alpine cda-9887 and it really does stage amazingly well for as simple and cheap as it is.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #237
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Default

This whole concept still intrigues me, at least the concept of the midbass speakers being placed to the left and the right of the listener with 180° separation. There's a great deal to consider in terms of implementation and I plan to re-read this thread and summarise exactly what is required to successfully implement this kind of setup.

It occurs to me that other than the VW Jetta in the original post, a coupé (or any other car without rear doors) really lends itself to this kind of an installation - you could get close to the ideal 180° separation relative to the listening position by installing the midbass speakers in the side panels just behind the rear seats, as in the following image:

https://images.app.goo.gl/px8eQc5baqbrhv5x9

It seems to me that you could fabricate a sealed enclosure for a midbass in this location, and whilst not as close to 180° as the location of the midbass in the door of the Jetta, it might be worth it to be able to use a sealed enclosure, which is difficult to implement in a door . I also think it would be very interesting to see whether going slightly beyond 180° is better or worse than midbass speakers at the front of the doors (or in the kickwell).
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #238
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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VW Jetta in the original post, a coupé (or any other car without rear doors) really lends itself to this kind of an installation

fabricate a sealed enclosure for a midbass in this location
i think it works well

https://imgur.com/a/T68gRmr

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #239
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

Ugh I'd love to hear that. I've been thinking about getting a GTI to replace my lame-mobile. (Mazda CX5)

In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Default Re: Crazy Imaging in a Stock System

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Ugh I'd love to hear that. I've been thinking about getting a GTI to replace my lame-mobile. (Mazda CX5)
unfortunately it was flooded and totaled. but im making something new right now...
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