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Old 02-23-2017   #26
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
how exactly do you do it on the twk?


I'll have to ask a Kevin again or check my setup file. I can't remember off the top of my head TBH.

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Old 07-07-2017   #27
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Why L-R instead of R-L?

Why is it that only the noncommon signals are wanted?
Why not only the shared frequencies?
Why not full range?

If we're trying to duplicate the ambient reverb (or whatever) of an actuyal venue, why not the full range signal?

Couldn't I just place my rear speakers on axis with each other and let that remove the common signals through cancellation?

Can resistors be used to achieve the wanted delay?

what about full range but with reversed polarity to cancel out the waves which reach the rear to create an anechoic(sp?) effetc?

What about speaker placement?
Factory in the rear deck facing up
2 speakers placed centraly on the rear deck facing up, angled forward, rearward? angled to the rear?
OR on the Cpillars forward upward or rearward?

Why the limited ban width at all...

Anyway, that will give me a bit better understanding.

I've been reading all the post i could find for days now... I think I might be more confused now than when I started.

Thanks for any help.
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Old 07-07-2017   #28
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

When using rear fill you want it to sound like reflected sound. Nothing else.
The huge delay is to make it sound like there is a large room behind you.
The L-R or vise versa is to remove any mono or center content. Using this content will pull your ears to the rear.
In the end what you are trying to achieve is the simulation of hearing reflections on a much larger room than a vehicle and all the little things we do to process the rear fill are to eliminate the rears from sounding solid, but instead washed out and being reflected to you from a distance.
Have you ever been to a concert?
If you have you'll here the direct sound of the band coming from in front of you but you'll also hear the room the band is performing in.
It comes in lower in volume. It's basically an echo but continuous and much faster.
It's this sound we try to achieve with rear fill. Not to sound like the band had speakers at the back of the room which is what non processed rear fill does.

Also why band limited and not full range. Reflected sound looses high end and low end content pretty quickly. High end content especially gets duller faster over distance. The more high end content you remove the further away the back wall of the fake room we are trying to create will appear.
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Old 07-07-2017   #29
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Copy and pasted from another thread.. PS, you dont need to ask the same question in multiple threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Why L-R instead of R-L?

same thing



Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Why is it that only the noncommon signals are wanted?
Why not only the shared frequencies?
to create a sense of space


Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Why not full range?
If we're trying to duplicate the ambient reverb (or whatever) of an actuyal venue, why not the full range signal?

higher frequencies are easier to locate. lower frequencies arent needed as far as i know





Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Couldn't I just place my rear speakers on axis with each other and let that remove the common signals through cancellation?

thats not how sound/speakers work


Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Can resistors be used to achieve the wanted delay?

umm.. thats also not how that works



Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
what about full range but with reversed polarity to cancel out the waves which reach the rear to create an anechoic(sp?) effetc?

That will also cause destructive cancellation with the front speakers. rear speakers with heavy delay will also cause cancellation with the front speakers, but not like this. they will just cause some comb filtering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
What about speaker placement?
Factory in the rear deck facing up
2 speakers placed centraly on the rear deck facing up, angled forward, rearward? angled to the rear?
OR on the Cpillars forward upward or rearward?

same as any speaker in a car.. ideally as deep and wide as possible



Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Why the limited ban width at all...
you asked that above

Quote:
Originally Posted by masnow View Post
Anyway, that will give me a bit better understanding.

I've been reading all the post i could find for days now... I think I might be more confused now than when I started.

Thanks for any help.
hope that helps. someone correct me if im wrong
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Old 07-07-2017   #30
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

So funny how just a few months ago rear speakers was the devil.
Maybe I didn't have something right or just wasn't listening enough but I couldn't hear a difference with the MS-8 running rears with logic 7. But they where only low in the rear doors not far from my head.
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Old 08-01-2017   #31
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
Loved the space it added. Also helped set my stage deep. I could steer the stage to just in front of my car. Very weird to experience

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Ive been doing this too I have my rear fill mid range component(no tweeter) set from 70hz to 2000hz. I time aligned them to 18ms or so both sides and it sounds like its coming from the middle to front of the car. I like how it adds some depth also. Its pretty cool how you can steer it from the doors to the center and up the left or right side or keep it in the back center like its coming from the rear deck.
I also have them set to mono seemed to work best and they aren't super loud.

Whats a good cutoff point to set them? Ive been playing with 3500 and under.
Do you have rear tweeters? I disconnected mine.

Also, I have an Audi A4 sedan. No rear fill feels like something is missing. Even though its subtle its better in bigger cars I think. Id never do it in a coupe.
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Old 08-01-2017   #32
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drop1 View Post
When using rear fill you want it to sound like reflected sound. Nothing else.
The huge delay is to make it sound like there is a large room behind you.
The L-R or vise versa is to remove any mono or center content. Using this content will pull your ears to the rear.
In the end what you are trying to achieve is the simulation of hearing reflections on a much larger room than a vehicle and all the little things we do to process the rear fill are to eliminate the rears from sounding solid, but instead washed out and being reflected to you from a distance.
Have you ever been to a concert?
If you have you'll here the direct sound of the band coming from in front of you but you'll also hear the room the band is performing in.
It comes in lower in volume. It's basically an echo but continuous and much faster.
It's this sound we try to achieve with rear fill. Not to sound like the band had speakers at the back of the room which is what non processed rear fill does.

Also why band limited and not full range. Reflected sound looses high end and low end content pretty quickly. High end content especially gets duller faster over distance. The more high end content you remove the further away the back wall of the fake room we are trying to create will appear.
Are you saying don't run the rear mids in mono?
What bandpass range would you set ?
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Old 08-01-2017   #33
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

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Originally Posted by elijahscott View Post
Are you saying don't run the rear mids in mono?
What bandpass range would you set ?
No, you want l-r, the opposite of mono. And frequency range you gotta play with. You don't need extra midbass though

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Old 08-01-2017   #34
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
No, you want l-r, the opposite of mono. And frequency range you gotta play with. You don't need extra midbass though

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I can change it on the fly and I seem to always go back to momo. Why have it in stereo for rear? Seems like a lot of people agree with the mono point.
You think 125hz and up would be good? 12db or 24db slope?
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Old 08-01-2017   #35
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elijahscott View Post
I can change it on the fly and I seem to always go back to momo. Why have it in stereo for rear? Seems like a lot of people agree with the mono point.
You think 125hz and up would be good? 12db or 24db slope?
Not stereo.. Left MINUS right. No mono information at all. What processor do you have

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Old 08-01-2017   #36
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elijahscott View Post
Also, I have an Audi A4 sedan. No rear fill feels like something is missing. Even though its subtle its better in bigger cars I think. Id never do it in a coupe.
What year A4? I have a 2006 A4 Avant, working on getting rear fill set up correctly at the moment. I have mine from 300Hz up to 3000Hz at the moment.

It's definitely tricky getting them right, at first I did not even notice they were on at all, muting them made no difference to the sound. I increased the gain at the DSP and now I can hear them, but they do not pull anything rearwards. I may dial them back down a little though, but going to leave it for a while to see how I like it.

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Old 08-01-2017   #37
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
Not stereo.. Left MINUS right. No mono information at all. What processor do you have

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I have the rear speaker level left and right going into the rear input on it.
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Old 08-01-2017   #38
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post
What year A4? I have a 2006 A4 Avant, working on getting rear fill set up correctly at the moment. I have mine from 300Hz up to 3000Hz at the moment.

It's definitely tricky getting them right, at first I did not even notice they were on at all, muting them made no difference to the sound. I increased the gain at the DSP and now I can hear them, but they do not pull anything rearwards. I may dial them back down a little though, but going to leave it for a while to see how I like it.
its an 2010 a4. Also made a ski passthrough for it once I noticed how much better the sub sounds with the side drivers rear seat folded down.
Similar with mine I don't notice them much. I have them a tad lower than the normal volume but time aligned it sounds like its coming from the center stage.
Using a center speaker and I swapped my components to coax(component convertibles) the sound stage sounds much much better than in the pillars.
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Old 08-01-2017   #39
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Yeah the audiocontrol processor can't do left minus right. Hell, it doesn't even do left/right eq

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Old 08-01-2017   #40
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

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Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
Yeah the audiocontrol processor can't do left minus right. Hell, it doesn't even do left/right eq

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yup not yet at least. Ill be testing some of that beta software for them in a few weeks they said they should have it available. Still having some issues right now
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Old 08-23-2017   #41
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

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Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
Yeah the audiocontrol processor can't do left minus right. Hell, it doesn't even do left/right eq

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can I not wire the rear mids together at the amp to create L-R?
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Old 07-13-2019   #42
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post

The twk88 can do differential rear fill. A friend of mine told me how to set it up. I did and can verify it works.




Edit: FWIW, I'm not seeing any posts in this thread having been moderated so it must be something with the site today.
Do you mind posting this info? I'm trying to help my friend with his VXI amps to do rear fills properly. Not sure how to do the routing.

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Old 09-10-2019   #43
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
Do you mind posting this info? I'm trying to help my friend with his VXI amps to do rear fills properly. Not sure how to do the routing.
Did you ever figure this out on the VXi? I am curious as well
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Old 09-11-2019   #44
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phobos223 View Post
Did you ever figure this out on the VXi? I am curious as well
I played with this for the first time today. Here is what I came up with in my VXI amps:

For the left rear:
Go to setup. Tie your input L&R together on the mixer and route that to left rear. Open the mixer path EQ for that left rear. Set +polarity -6dB on the left input, and -polarity -12dB on the right input. Go to Tuner. Set your crossover to bandpass 80Hz to 4kHz. Then go to delay/polarity and set total delay to -20ms. Under output I also trimmed -6dB.

For the right rear:
Go to setup. Tie your input L&R together on the mixer and route that to right rear. Open the mixer path EQ for that right rear. Set -polarity -6dB on the left input, and +polarity -12dB on the right input. Go to Tuner. Set your crossover to bandpass 80Hz to 4kHz. Then go to delay/polarity and set total delay to -20ms. Under output I also trimmed -6dB.

Mine is a little more complicated as I'm running active tweeter and mid in the rear, but that is basically just doubling the above steps and setting different crossover points.
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Old 09-11-2019   #45
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Default To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phobos223 View Post
Did you ever figure this out on the VXi? I am curious as well
This is what I could remember. Test it out yourself and adjust level, crossover points and delay to your liking. Every car is diff.





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Last edited by tonynca; 09-11-2019 at 01:18 AM..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #46
 
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Thanks Audi/Tony! Carlos from JL just got back to me as well and told me basically the exact same thing. Will give this a shot! Thanks again for the help as always!
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
This is what I could remember. Test it out yourself and adjust level, crossover points and delay to your liking. Every car is diff.





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Hm. When I did the routing like yours under mixer path EQ4 with L input pos polarity / -6db and right input neg polarity / -6db I got no sound. I had to make a difference between the inputs (ie set the right input to -12dB).

I also have my polarities the opposite of you under the idea of trying to make the L rear be L-R. Rear left I have as +L input and -R input.
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudiS6GoFast View Post
Hm. When I did the routing like yours under mixer path EQ4 with L input pos polarity / -6db and right input neg polarity / -6db I got no sound. I had to make a difference between the inputs (ie set the right input to -12dB).

I also have my polarities the opposite of you under the idea of trying to make the L rear be L-R. Rear left I have as +L input and -R input.
Oh my goodness. I am glad you posted this photo cause now I realized why I had no sound: I was listening to mono pink noise at the time so both channels had identical information ;-) I will change the settings!
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Lol easy mistake.


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Clarion NX807, Audison Bit One HD, Audison Voce 5.1k HD, Audison Voce Quattro HD, Focal Utopia M 3-way (TBM, 3.5WM, 6WM), Dynaudio Esotar 1200
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Default Re: To rear fill or not to rear fill?

Hey all, so I set up the +L -R in my truck and it sounds pretty cool but it is not very noticeable, even with level cranked up. Is it safe to assume it is because my rears are low in the rear doors (2108 GMC Sierra quad cab)? My front stage is pretty f-in loud so that also could be it

How do you even go about EQ-ing a setup like this? Just curious... or does it even matter? Thanks!
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