Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line) - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 11-10-2018   #1
 
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Default Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Okay, so I'm a noob here, but I have been in the CarAudio game for decades. I am always drawn toward set-ups that are "out of the box"(no pun intended).
I have a pair of L7 15's sitting around and I've decided to put them in my truck on a Massive D8000.
Has anyone played with T-Line boxes and run their subs isobaric? I can't dedicate enough space for both, but it doesn't seem like I will have to make any changes to the design, to run the subs isobaric.
Am I right? Or does the Fs change when subs are run iso?
Anyone have any thoughts?
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Old 11-10-2018   #2
 
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Oh yeah...
I've got an 04 Ram, standard cab with a blow through. I've run four Alpine Type-R 10's in a bandpass, then 4 RE Audio 12's ported and most recently 3 of the L715's sealed.
One of the downsides to the L7 is the cone mass overmatches the motor, so they're sloppy as hell and now that I'm old, I want SQ instead of pure SPL. Isobaric should resolve that particular issue, by my logic.
My calculations give me a line with 144 sq. Inches area and about 8 1/2 feet long.
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Old 11-10-2018   #3
 
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

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Originally Posted by Thealterdave View Post
One of the downsides to the L7 is the cone mass overmatches the motor, so they're sloppy as hell and now that I'm old, I want SQ instead of pure SPL. Isobaric should resolve that particular issue, by my logic.
No. Isobaric will double the motor strength AND cone mass. You'll just be losing half of your cone area while somewhat increasing control from the smaller "enclosure".
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Old 11-11-2018   #4
 
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Well, that's kinda my thinking.. Two times the cone mass, sandwiched between the two motors, with a small cushion of air, should give a lot more cone control=better sound reproduction. The T-line should give the 15s a lot more flat frequency response...
Hopefully, anyway..lol
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

I know the moving mass of the drivers themselves would just combine. You should benefit from the air load being about half though.
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Old 11-12-2018   #6
 
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

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Originally Posted by Thealterdave View Post
Well, that's kinda my thinking.. Two times the cone mass, sandwiched between the two motors, with a small cushion of air, should give a lot more cone control=better sound reproduction. The T-line should give the 15s a lot more flat frequency response...
Hopefully, anyway..lol
I still think they'll be sloppy, but I've never fooled with a T-line enclosure. I just don't have much faith in Kicker, they seem to be stuck in the 90's with their technology. I used to love them, but everyone else in the mainstream has surpassed them.
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Totally agree about Kicker, not my 1st choice either, for sq. The house needs a roof, Christmas is around the corner and other crap.... Adulting...
These have been in my shed, collecting dust for a cple years and I got them because they fit a 'look' I wanted, the shape of the back and were for a special project, then I changed direction. I killed one, had three. The equipment is what it is, I'm trying to work design. The Massive 8k is not the power I would prefer, but will do the job.
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I'm wiring the subs now, should be able to test in the shop tomorrow. Enclosure is maaaaassive.
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

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Originally Posted by Thealterdave View Post
Totally agree about Kicker, not my 1st choice either, for sq. The house needs a roof, Christmas is around the corner and other crap.... Adulting...
These have been in my shed, collecting dust for a cple years and I got them because they fit a 'look' I wanted, the shape of the back and were for a special project, then I changed direction. I killed one, had three. The equipment is what it is, I'm trying to work design. The Massive 8k is not the power I would prefer, but will do the job.
I understand completely. Good luck.
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Old 11-12-2018   #10
 
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

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I'm wiring the subs now, should be able to test in the shop tomorrow. Enclosure is maaaaassive.
Photos please
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Old 11-12-2018   #11
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

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Originally Posted by Thealterdave View Post
I'm wiring the subs now, should be able to test in the shop tomorrow. Enclosure is maaaaassive.
Post some pics please!

Current build (almost completed) -> 2017 Mustang GT PP, Zapco DC series amps & DSP, all active - dual 18" Fi IB3 Subwoofers in IB.

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Old 11-13-2018   #12
 
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Here are a couple during assy. Thing has a nice clear, flat response. Can't really get the full effect till I get it in the truck tho. Lol
Sounds pretty awesome so far tho...
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Old 11-13-2018   #13
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

^^^ Dammmmmmmm, Dude... I am NOT particularly a bass head, but I REALLY want to hear that monster!!!! NICE work!!!!

That being said, I might suggest quite a bit more cross bracing on the long side walls!!!

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Old 11-14-2018   #14
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Why is the box so enormous?

A isobaric transmission line for two of these should be around 1.5 - 3 cubic feet:

https://www.kicker.com/15-l7-subwoofer

One of the challenges with isobaric subwoofer designs is that you reach a point where the box is so small, you can't even fit the woofer in it.

Isobaric loading doesn't do anything big to the frequency response or 'control' of the cone. It just makes the box half as big and it simultaneously raises your power handling by two (because there's two voice coils, not one.)


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 11-14-2018   #15
 
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Actually using the isobaric set would not make the box smaller. It allows you do use the double the speaker and power in an enclosure sized for one. Tlines by design are large enclosures and his calculations are about right. My Tline for one 12 took up 6 cubic ft.

Nice job on the enclosure and it should really slam.
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Old 11-14-2018   #16
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

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Actually using the isobaric set would not make the box smaller. It allows you do use the double the speaker and power in an enclosure sized for one. Tlines by design are large enclosures and his calculations are about right. My Tline for one 12 took up 6 cubic ft.

Nice job on the enclosure and it should really slam.
A properly sized transmission line should be about as large as a vented box. On the upper end, it should be about twice as big.

Kicker recommends a vented box of 3 cubic feet.

So an isobaric tline for this woofer should be around 1.5 - 3.0 cubic feet. (Since an isobaric vented box would be 1.5cubic feet.)

Keep in mind, nearly every video on Youtube and article on the SPL forums about building tlines are just flat-out wrong. We didn't have a way to model them until about 2003, and there are a zillion articles prior to that are just BS.

In particular, if you're building a tline and you're not factoring in the VAS, you will not get acceptable results.

Check this out: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...alignment.html


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 11-15-2018   #17
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Quote:
Why is the box so enormous?

A isobaric transmission line for two of these should be around 1.5 - 3 cubic feet:
The enclosure volume should be around 1.5 cubic feet. The port still needs to be the quarter wavelength at the tuned frequency (which agrees with your statement on the thread you linked "In a transmission line loudspeaker, the sound from the rear of the cone is transmitted through a quarter wave tube"). My guess, from looking at the photo, is that he is close to 1.5 cubes prior to considering the woofer's displacement (so the enclosure portion might actually be a little small). IMO that is the issue with Tlines in cars. At subwoofer freqs they are large unless you choke down the port volume and implement some fairly complex folds.

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Well, I couldn't see a way the Fs was going to be effected by running the subs isobaric, so I went with standard calculations.
After testing out of the vehicle, I'm VERY pleased with frequency range. It pounds hard at 50hz and stays solid down to about 5hz. I'm anxious to see how it performs in the truck, but I'm about two weeks away from getting to test that.
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Looks like it sounds pretty good and is working for you so far. From the pics it didn't look like a lot of line length for a 15". How much line length did you end up with again? I must always calculate T Lines wrong. Even when I played with 8", I ended up with these huge boxes on paper and could never justify taking my whole hatch up.
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post

A properly sized transmission line should be about as large as a vented box. On the upper end, it should be about twice as big.
...
The main metric in a transmission line is length, which is related the frequency.
So a 6" and a 15" sub, both tuned to 20 Hz, would both be the same length.

The diameter or cross section and hence the volume is usually not smaller than than speaker's cross sectional area.
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Old 11-16-2018   #21
 
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My total line length is 8.5 feet and the area is 144 sq inches.
Im very please with it so far.
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Old 11-16-2018   #22
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Default Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)



Hey Dave, I ran your box through hornresp. Here's the results:



First off, this is the response of Kicker's published box. This is a 3 cubic foot vented box. It's a real "one note wonder", Kicker is clearly tuning it high so that it's louder than it would normally be. Might be cool for an SPL car but probably would be obnoxious for music.


Here's the frequency response of the box you built. It plays lower than the vented box and the peak isn't as big. Because the box is bigger, the efficiency is higher than the vented box.


You can smooth out the response by changing it from isobaric to a single woofer. Here's what that would look like.


In my humble opinion, the easiest way to improve a transmission line is to mount the woofer offset, and taper the line. If you do that, you'll get a response like this.


Here's the specs on a tapered offset transmission line for a pair of your woofers


Here's a diagram. The tline is ten feet long and it starts out at 93 square inches and tapers down to half that at the exit.

All in all, I think your box turned out well.


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 11-19-2018   #23
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people disregard isobaric quickly and somewhat understandably with the several disadvantages but the isobaric bass and mid bass I have heard I will never forget best I have heard ever.

Reduced box size for s nice,
Doubling quantities of woofers for same output costly



Might be something to do with even order distortion cancelling out.
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Question Re: Clamshell Isobaric Transmission Line (T-Line)

Okay so... I read through your topic and I think I misunderstood the isobaric config halving thing. (Sorry not trying to hijack badass looking box btw!)
If i've got a single woofer that needs 29.493 in2 for a single sub if i'm running 2 isobaric sets ie 2 woofers in clamshell does that mean I still only need 29.492?

I'm asking b/c I just spent hours doing a design for them and did it with double the port area (58.986 in2) X-D
If so I guess I need to buy 4 more subs or start over again lol
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