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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1
 
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Default REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

So I've been playing around with RoomEQ Wizard and my UMIK-1 microphone, but I'm still a little confused.

What I'm running:

ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00
Focal PS165F woofers (kept the woofers, got rid of the tweeters)
Moral Ultimo SC 124 12" Subwoofer
Arc XDi-850.5 5-channel amp
Arc KS 1200.1 monoblock amp
Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit

I've set gain for the mids and sub using the DD-1 Distortion Detector, while the gain for tweeters is at it's lowest level.

I've manually set Time Alignment by hanging a small ball from the roof of my car in the center of where my head would be and measuring to each speaker with a tape measure.

The 80prs requires you input the delay in inches, so I just punch in the numbers.


So I guess the formula now is simply to set levels, then EQ and I should be set.

I just measured my mids and my tweeters, by taking six measurements each around each ear and averaging them.

These are the graphs I ended up with:

Both mids and both tweeters, with 1:1 smoothing applied:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2pyce3p.jpg

Tweeters only:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/6drg9c.jpg

Mids only:

http://oi64.tinypic.com/qx2erc.jpg

Mids with 1:12 smoothing:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2d2eq9y.jpg

Right mid compared to target curve:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2lm4d3l.jpg


Okay, how exactly am I supposed to set levels? At some areas on these graphs the left is louder than the right, and on others the right is louder than the left. How do I know which on average is louder?

Now, I'm assuming that the proper procedure is to level-match at the crossover points, then use Left and Right EQ to match the areas in between. Is this correct?

In the case of my Mids this would mean lowering the Right instead of the Left. This would match the levels at the crossover points (around 80 hz and around 2.5khz) but it would make the difference at 200 to 800hz greater.

It's also a little counter-intuitive since I'm sitting in the drivers seat and you'd think the left mid would be louder from my position than the right.

On the last graph, you see the right mid in comparison to my target response, which is the Audiofrog target that was recommended to me.

There are some pretty large humps on both the Left and Right side between 80hz and 400hz.

Basically, what I'm asking is what is the best procedure to tune this system to the target curve with graphs that look like these?


I've read an alternative method of setting Left/Right EQ is to download test tones at each EQ level on your DSP and change your EQ settings until the tone is exactly centered.

But does this procedure accomplish the same thing as setting Left and Right EQ using a meter and REW?

Also, how much smoothing should I be applying when setting Levels and EQ? One method I read advised 1:1 smoothing for levels and something like 1:6 or 1:12 for EQ. Does that sound right?

I'm just a total newbie when it comes to tuning so I'd really appreciate any tips you could provide, especially from someone familiar with the 80prs and it's strengths and limitations.

Thanks so much.
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Default

Change your scale to 5 db per line. At first I was super jealous how flat that looked. I've been doing the same thing as you with rew. I'm still learning or I'd help a little more. Have you learned how to use the eq function in rew. If not there's threads and videos on how to do it. Maybe this can help a little with setting levels and doing eq with rew.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eq-wizard.html
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

you should be measuring left vs right and smooth to 1/3. increase your vertical axis resolution.

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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

In my experience, the auto T/A on the 80prs is very close to perfect.

I would use the Auto T/A over tape measure.

After painstaking T/A work with pink noise and tones I ended up within 1/2 inch of the Auto T/A.

I like 1/6 smoothing for EQ work personally.

For L/R EQ, it's more difficult to hear centered frequencies the higher the frequency.

Use the test tones method for the mids.

For the tweeters, take measurements at each ear and try to match the slopes.

You shouldn't need to do much EQ work at the crossover point. The response is much more affected by crossover point, slopes and time alignment between the two drivers.

Measuring the whole left or right side together will give you a good picture.




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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

My tip for you to not chase your tail with the high frequencies is to make sure you do spatial averaging then tune the speakers flat. After you get everything flatten out. Your ears are most sensitive to 2-5khz so if you're getting harshness it's there usually. Go back and take down frequencies that are too much (on both the left and the right eq). Do this until you find that your sound is balanced.

It will take some time to train your ears but yeah what the mic can't tell you is if you have a resonant freq somewhere and you should use your ears to find that.

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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

I start with my target curve and a mic on a stand, itís a good approximation for a start to get levels close, I use a stand alone mosconi DSP, so I get the target curve on screen, set itís level to my furthest away midrange as this is generally the hardest pushed and therefore every thing else will be lower than this level generally

Adjust the target curve to match the midrange on the right with volume turned down to around 80-85 (assuming left hand drive) to full signal before clipping and approximate the target curve so it has equal parts above and below the target curve, donít stress about the EQ just yet, aim to get levels around that target curve, then save a snapshot of that and use that as your target curve on rta mode, now switch mids and adjust the level of the left midrange to approx the same

Once they are matched ish you can have a play with the eq for each, just stick with the mid for now and see if you canít get them similar ish to the target curve with less than 3db boost and cut, err more on the cut side if you have big peaks

Then compare sides to each other and see how close you are at 2db per square resolution (looking as you are is like using a chocolate condom!)

With my dsp and itís adjustability I aim to end up on 1db per square and no more than 2db plus or minus variance if I can, big lulls and peaks are smoothed rather than minus 12db or whatever...

Now get up single mids and get the same sides tweeter to level match (again half below and half above the target curve and then smooth a little with EQ also) then repeat for the other side also 👍🏼 That should see it somewhere near listenable too and both should sum correctly if the timing and phase is correct also 👍🏼

I would then have a listen and see what my train wreck sounds like...

Iíve put 6hrs into tuning mine now and itís doing rather well

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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Thanks for the responses.

I did compare Time Alignment with the tape measure method to Auto T/A and the values were very similar, except for the sub. I just used the Auto T/A values for tweeters and mids, then kept the tape measure value for the sub.

However, other guides I've read recommend this site for setting time alignment:

http://tracerite.com/calc.html

This site is confusing me because the values they recommend are way different from both tape measure distances and Auto-T/A.

Basically this site adds almost 100 to each physical distance measurement. For example, the Left Tweeter measurement goes from 43.5 inches as measured from the sail panel to 130.9 inches.

Is this site even appropriate for an 80prs? I'd like to understand the logic behind it, since so many have recommended it for setting time alignment.

Lastly, is it important to do Time Alignment before adjusting Levels? And is it important to adjust levels before doing Left/Right EQ work?

I ask because if I first match individual drivers to a target curve, it becomes easier to see which one is louder than the other.

I appreciate all the help.
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Did you select that it was a Pioneer setup button? If I remember correctly Pioneer does some odd things like using a backwards method compared to everyone else.
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Pioneer uses inches whereas some measure in milliseconds.

It doesn't matter if you add 100 inches to all measurements, the time alignment won't change. Everything wil be delayed the same.

I actually like how pioneer does it.

160 inches is the maximum distance you can select. At this distance, the unit is adding no delay whatsoever.

At 0 inches, the unit is adding the most delay possible.

This is why you often see the furthest driver set at 160 inches and the rest set lower accordingly.

If you set the actual distance, you are using more delay buffer in the unit when it is not needed.
I can't say I know of a downside to that, just that it's unnessesary processing you can free the unit from performing.

I first set distances, then took the difference between the actual sub measurement and 160 inches, then added that number to all drivers.

So the relative delay between drivers is the same, but now the unit is not delaying the sub at all, and adding the minimum delay needed for the other drivers.

As for order of operations:

Always time align before any EQ work.
T/A affects EQ, but EQ does not affect T/A.
Then move on to level matching the drivers as close as possible to reduce the EQ needed.
Next move to Left/right EQ to get the drivers as close as possible.
Last, work on your final overall EQ curve or house curve.





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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifixtheinternet View Post
Pioneer uses inches whereas some measure in milliseconds.

It doesn't matter if you add 100 inches to all measurements, the time alignment won't change. Everything wil be delayed the same.

I actually like how pioneer does it.

160 inches is the maximum distance you can select. At this distance, the unit is adding no delay whatsoever.

At 0 inches, the unit is adding the most delay possible.

This is why you often see the furthest driver set at 160 inches and the rest set lower accordingly.

If you set the actual distance, you are using more delay buffer in the unit when it is not needed.
I can't say I know of a downside to that, just that it's unnessesary processing you can free the unit from performing.

I first set distances, then took the difference between the actual sub measurement and 160 inches, then added that number to all drivers.

So the relative delay between drivers is the same, but now the unit is not delaying the sub at all, and adding the minimum delay needed for the other drivers.

As for order of operations:

Always time align before any EQ work.
T/A affects EQ, but EQ does not affect T/A.
Then move on to level matching the drivers as close as possible to reduce the EQ needed.
Next move to Left/right EQ to get the drivers as close as possible.
Last, work on your final overall EQ curve or house curve.





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Thanks for the clear explanation! I got the Time Alignment dialed in perfectly now.

I'm having a different problem now though.

I've been trying to tune with RoomEQ Wizard and my Umik-1, but I'm having a lot of trouble with the sub and midbass crossover region.

Here's a graph of my left sub and left midbass in REW:



http://oi68.tinypic.com/2qn4bjr.jpg


The red slope is my target curve, which is Hanatsu's preferred curve (or so I'm told).

Crossovers are set at 63 hz for the sub and 80 hz for the midbass.

As you can see, there is a massive spike between 40 and 50 hz, followed by a dip at 70 hz. Then my midbass has a spike just past 100 hz followed by a dip at 150 hz then a massive spike again at 300 hz.

I'm trying to get a nice, smooth transition between my sub and midbass, following the target curve, but I don't know what to do with this mess.

Any suggestions?
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

That looks ugly, but I think you lucked out with where the spikes are.

Cut the 50hz band, it's almost center on the first spike. Each notch of adjustment is about 2db.

There's not much you can do about the sub dip, but it's pretty narrow and the mid will still be playing strong in that area, so don't worry about it.

The big midrange spike looks like it spans between 200-500hz.

You have 200, 315 and 500hz EQ points.
Cut 315 by a lot and cut 200, 500 by a bit less.

Make those changes, then measure both drivers together and compare to your target.




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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifixtheinternet View Post
That looks ugly, but I think you lucked out with where the spikes are.

Cut the 50hz band, it's almost center on the first spike. Each notch of adjustment is about 2db.

There's not much you can do about the sub dip, but it's pretty narrow and the mid will still be playing strong in that area, so don't worry about it.

The big midrange spike looks like it spans between 200-500hz.

You have 200, 315 and 500hz EQ points.
Cut 315 by a lot and cut 200, 500 by a bit less.

Make those changes, then measure both drivers together and compare to your target.




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Is there any reason to stick to the crossover points of 63hz for the sub and 80 for the mids?

Most people I've seen recommend a gap in the electronic crossover points to account for the fact that the sub will be playing louder.

I think the Audiofrog guide just says to set the sub at 63hz and the mids at 80hz.

I'm just wondering if I might experiment with setting them at 80 and 100. Or maybe 100 and 120. Or even higher?

I know the simple answer is to try it out and see how it sounds, but I'm curious about the explanation for which crossover points are ideal for the subwoofer.

I was thinking about playing with the crossover points to see if I could improve some of these problem areas by raising the crossover points a bit.

Thanks for all your help.
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What house curve is that?
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
Is there any reason to stick to the crossover points of 63hz for the sub and 80 for the mids?



Most people I've seen recommend a gap in the electronic crossover points to account for the fact that the sub will be playing louder.



I think the Audiofrog guide just says to set the sub at 63hz and the mids at 80hz.



I'm just wondering if I might experiment with setting them at 80 and 100. Or maybe 100 and 120. Or even higher?



I know the simple answer is to try it out and see how it sounds, but I'm curious about the explanation for which crossover points are ideal for the subwoofer.



I was thinking about playing with the crossover points to see if I could improve some of these problem areas by raising the crossover points a bit.



Thanks for all your help.
Sub frequencies need to be limited to around 80hz or lower to stay non-directional.

Up to that point the bass blends well and can appear to be around you, or in front of you, no matter where the sub is.

Any thing over that and you will hear it behind you, which messes up the stereo image.

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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
Is there any reason to stick to the crossover points of 63hz for the sub and 80 for the mids?

Most people I've seen recommend a gap in the electronic crossover points to account for the fact that the sub will be playing louder.

I think the Audiofrog guide just says to set the sub at 63hz and the mids at 80hz.

I'm just wondering if I might experiment with setting them at 80 and 100. Or maybe 100 and 120. Or even higher?

I know the simple answer is to try it out and see how it sounds, but I'm curious about the explanation for which crossover points are ideal for the subwoofer.

I was thinking about playing with the crossover points to see if I could improve some of these problem areas by raising the crossover points a bit.

Thanks for all your help.
More specifically, Andy's Audiofrog guide says to cross the sub half an octave below the midbass highpass frequency. Half an octave below 80Hz is 60Hz. Half an octave below 70 is 52.5. And half an octave below 90 is 67.5

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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock View Post
What house curve is that?
It's supposedly a curve the member Hanatsu recommended. I found it posted on another thread.

I can't say I like it too much, seems a bit too bass-heavy for me. Although I may have not tuned it correctly.
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phroenips View Post
More specifically, Andy's Audiofrog guide says to cross the sub half an octave below the midbass highpass frequency. Half an octave below 80Hz is 60Hz. Half an octave below 70 is 52.5. And half an octave below 90 is 67.5
I've got the mids set at 80hz and the sub at 63.

I just tried tuning to Jazzi's house curve. It sounds pretty good, but I'm wondering whether these results would be considered "good" given the limitations of the EQ I'm working with.

Here are both Left and Right channels compared to the house curve:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ho9oh2.jpg

I tried to match both sides as close as I could. I have no reference, so I'm wondering if I should be satisfied with results like this, or whether you think I could do much better?

There are some peaks and dips around the sub that I can't seem to fully get rid of.


Another thing I don't quite understand is that when I measure both sides together, the dip at 180hz or so is much larger. Is there a reason for this?

http://oi64.tinypic.com/dxz1nr.jpg

The Audiofrog Tuning Guide you mentioned does say this:

"7. Play mono pink noise through both channels at the same time. Look at the RTA display. This is the frequency response of your center image. If you see a BIG dip or a series of big dips (9dB or more), then your delay settings are incorrect or the signal into your processor includes delay or phase EQ."

Don't know if this is relevant to what I'm seeing here.

Curious to know what you make of this.
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Default REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
I've got the mids set at 80hz and the sub at 63.



I just tried tuning to Jazzi's house curve. It sounds pretty good, but I'm wondering whether these results would be considered "good" given the limitations of the EQ I'm working with.



Here are both Left and Right channels compared to the house curve:



http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ho9oh2.jpg



I tried to match both sides as close as I could. I have no reference, so I'm wondering if I should be satisfied with results like this, or whether you think I could do much better?



There are some peaks and dips around the sub that I can't seem to fully get rid of.





Another thing I don't quite understand is that when I measure both sides together, the dip at 180hz or so is much larger. Is there a reason for this?



http://oi64.tinypic.com/dxz1nr.jpg



The Audiofrog Tuning Guide you mentioned does say this:



"7. Play mono pink noise through both channels at the same time. Look at the RTA display. This is the frequency response of your center image. If you see a BIG dip or a series of big dips (9dB or more), then your delay settings are incorrect or the signal into your processor includes delay or phase EQ."



Don't know if this is relevant to what I'm seeing here.



Curious to know what you make of this.


Don't worry about that dip. It's a null spot created by speakers being in your doors. This is why people woofers in the kick panels.

I have the same dip at 150hz. When you're measuring each side by itself you're only measuring just that. When you have both sides on, the speakers will interact with themselves and by the time the sound gets to you there could be dips or peaks from this interactions. You can't fix this with EQ. You could fix the peaks though. You should take down those peaks.

I also suggest you listen and see what you like better.

Also any freq over 1000hz will change change drastically if you move the mic a few inches. So it's important to use spatial averaging by moving the mic around your listen position to average them out so you don't end up creating a huge peak somewhere by trying to boost certain freqs.

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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Right... can I just say your curves look awesome... until you zoom in, change the axis and I suspect they wonít look as nice, someone said it above but you ignored it seemingly, set the graphs min and max so you get some resolution, itís like looking at the Mona Lisa from 500 metres away!

For example in the post number 17 go to min 60db (maybe higher if you can as long as your curve is all on screen) and max 100 dB and you will then start to see more detail and it wonít look so good! But at least you will get way more resolution and know whatís what far better! Itís the limits icon top right just above the graph near the settings cog
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Yeah you really need to use 5db lines so you could actually see the peaks better.


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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Okay, I re-did my tune and here are just the mids, at a higher resolution this time.

Left mid:

http://oi64.tinypic.com/htbos3.jpg

Right mid:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/wcbp6g.jpg

I'm only working with the basic graphic EQ on the Pioneer DEH-80prs. Are these results reasonable?

Are there any tips in regards to which frequencies are more important to focus on?

Is it better to eliminate peaks or dips?

My technique for dealing with peaks and dips that I can't flatten, is to make them equal on both sides of the house curve.

Is there any rule like, for example, remove peaks that are greater than 5db?

Thanks again for the help.
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
Okay, I re-did my tune and here are just the mids, at a higher resolution this time.



Left mid:



http://oi64.tinypic.com/htbos3.jpg



Right mid:



http://oi68.tinypic.com/wcbp6g.jpg



I'm only working with the basic graphic EQ on the Pioneer DEH-80prs. Are these results reasonable?



Are there any tips in regards to which frequencies are more important to focus on?



Is it better to eliminate peaks or dips?



My technique for dealing with peaks and dips that I can't flatten, is to make them equal on both sides of the house curve.



Is there any rule like, for example, remove peaks that are greater than 5db?



Thanks again for the help.


Fix your graph bro. It's so misleading. Use 5db lines


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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
Fix your graph bro. It's so misleading. Use 5db lines


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Sorry, how do I do that exactly?

I think you click on "Limits", then change "db Top" and "db Bottom" is that correct?

By "use 5db lines", you mean change those settings until the marker on the left is denominated in intervals of 5db instead of the 10db they are in the images I posted?

I think I'm misunderstanding something. If I change those values slightly, the 5db intervals appear. But the graph doesn't change. I don't know what's misleading about it.
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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Use your scroll button on your mouse. Or set the limit to be smaller. Say 110 and 90


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Default Re: REW tuning - Do these graphs look right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post
Sorry, how do I do that exactly?

I think you click on "Limits", then change "db Top" and "db Bottom" is that correct?

By "use 5db lines", you mean change those settings until the marker on the left is denominated in intervals of 5db instead of the 10db they are in the images I posted?

I think I'm misunderstanding something. If I change those values slightly, the 5db intervals appear. But the graph doesn't change. I don't know what's misleading about it.
The graph does change, it will spread and grow (you even did it above with your higher resolution left and right mids!), tighten it up further, I explained exactly how to do it above, do it so the troughs of your graph is at the bottom and the peaks are at the very top, you need to click apply settings to get it to stretch
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