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Old 07-16-2019   #501
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
I mean with one 8x12 unit though cuz being able to do 2 mb, 2 mr, and 2 tw, and then send the signal back and do it as a left and right.

No no no

For analysis. I wanted to see for myself what the hell it did to the phase and eq
Acoustical measurements are never clean enough, an electrical measurement tells you exactly what itís doing to the signal

I wanted to know exactly how it works to better use it and to just know what it was doing. I wanted to see the magic


Thatís also how I know it dosent quite use ďpeqĒ type filters , itís a single allpass for the entire channel. Quite brilliant actually

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 07-16-2019   #502
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
No no no



For analysis. I wanted to see for myself what the hell it did to the phase and eq

Acoustical measurements are never clean enough, an electrical measurement tells you exactly what itís doing to the signal



I wanted to know exactly how it works to better use it and to just know what it was doing. I wanted to see the magic





Thatís also how I know it dosent quite use ďpeqĒ type filters , itís a single allpass for the entire channel. Quite brilliant actually
Use your clout at minidsp to get them to program a loopback

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Old 07-16-2019   #503
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
Ryan, good to see your results. Thanks for sharing.

I also talked with someone at miniDSP about some questions I had. In his reply email he noted that it is not intended to be used as we are and instead it should be used for 2 channels of DL; that we should set everything else up in the miniDSP for a 3-way system and then let DL correct the response curve. Which is the same thing you guys were told. I replied that I think there's merit to using it for 3-way systems but I would talk that over with him later. But based on what he said, I now wonder if DL does any sort of time alignment; most likely via an all pass filter. Otherwise, it's completely on the user to set it up correctly (tape measure would suffice, I suppose). And based on the results you (Ryan) mentioned (thanks, btw), either you nailed the T/A in the miniDSP GUI or DL does indeed do some compensation between active drivers. I'll have to ask them about this.
They did tell me this

"Dirac Live is smart enough to perform ďinter driverĒ alignment with a single Dirac Live path. Itís not a simple PEQ or FIR. The internal path can easily handle to time align and EQ multiple speakers at once. Believe us, we know whatís behind the scenes.. ;-)"

Also if you put all the drivers in a single Dirac Channel, you get the advantage of having Dirac correcting the issues at the crossover section too. So yes, it seems like they do and are able to do some TA in a single channel. I see in the Dirac tab, that all my 4 drivers are using a single delay but the sub does sound like its coming in the front. There is a limit though to my ears. I still sometimes hear my sub coming from the rear in this mode. It is totally gone when I do a 3 way active with Right and LEft on a Dirac Channel and Sub on its own channel. They delay and Dirac in this method removes all traces of the sub sounding like its coming from behind me.
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Old 07-16-2019   #504
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
My takeaway from last night is that the target curve is EVERYTHING. If you don't have a good target, it's not going to sound good. And while that statement sounds like a no-brainier, the difference between a good target and a bad target is not very easy to pinpoint. If I draw a target that matches targets I have used in tuning my car with a Helix DSP, it doesn't sound anywhere near the same. So I am going to have to do a lot of trial and error with target curve tweaks to get the tonality I want. Ultimately, this might be a lot more work than it would be just tuning with a Helix using IIR filters. At least with traditional DSP you can listen and EQ at the same time to see what works. With Dirac, you would have to adjust the target and optimize the filters and export.

To be fair, this seems to be a general theme with FIR based filtering hardware. I have an APL1 in the car, and likewise the results depend entirely on the target curve you select. Even the slightest changes to the target make the sound completely different, and it has never been easy to correlate how to adjust the target to get the desired tonality.


My next tuning session on the Dirac will be a 3 channel Dirac correction on top of a traditional tune via the Plugin.

This is what I found as well. I could be using the exact same target curve from my AP1 and Dirac end result and even my rough RTA measurements shows similar result, they sound totally different. Tonality is the one where it seems to differ the most. I suspect it is because Dirac applies a maximum boost of up to 10db while APL1 default is db. So unless your target curve in Dirac is all below or you ensure it is not more then 6db above your measured response, that could very well be the issue.

I find that APL1 measurements and curve even with different runs has very similar end result and tonality and sound. While Dirac with each 9 measurement run, does seem to differ somewhat. Not always alot of difference but there are difference.

My rough RTA measurements also seem to show that Dirac i all different target curve, shows a peak of around 5-8db in the 50hz region. APL1 tune does not show that. So it seems like even with a 4 way 2 channel DIRAC tune, it does not take care of this peak in the 50hz region.

Still trying to figure a good target for my Dirac tunes. Many are close but just not totally there.
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Old 07-16-2019   #505
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

On the minidsp forum I told ppl to use 2ch. I said Iíll continue to use 8ch

I feel itís partly my fault for getting everyone started on 8ch knowing itís not the best way,
But OTOH Iíve only run 2ch in the past so I didnít actually know at the time.

But I have another 2ch Dirac upstream of my 8ch running 2.0. So I got the benefits of 2ch with my 8ch (thatís why I said Iíll run 8 and didnít specify I thought yíall already knew .....)

Gang, I apologize, I spaced that and should have gotten everyone on the right path sooner. Iím sorry, I just have problems telling ppl what to do because of certain flamers on here, so my new advice has been do what you want and shut up and let me do what I want. I was wrong to mix that mentality with this thread, and actually I kinda donít care....but I do care. So Iím sorry. Everyone switch to 2 or 3 channel now.....how it was educational sorry!

Not to mention nobody knew what I was talking about when I would make comments as nobody would have ! It was still new to everyone, so I made 2 videos , and I did it like everyone else , and I also wanted to do 8ch and say if this is how your going to do it do it like this, but that was bad I should have just said two ch only, but the way things were going nobody would have listened because I thought it several times, so I went with the flow , I should have stuck to my guns Nd just stopped it , but I wonít do that, itís not who I am.

Iím all about fuck it letís learn this together from scratch and forget the two years advantage , no one wanted to hear that I felt and I canít stand flamers.

And for god sakes when did I ever have a eq on my dash?
Oh wait I had 4 Alesis meq230s on the dash of my Jetta in 1992 but that was before most of you were born so that donít count! (Lol )

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

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Old 07-16-2019   #506
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
I think this may be caused by the setup of output levels in the DL menu. And this may be one reason why we are told to use DL in 2-channel mode. If DL is expecting full range signal then setting up the inputs/outputs for a channel that has very limited passband may be throwing the process for a loop. For example, consider tweeters... if they're high pass relatively high there's not as much spectrum to collect so the output level reader may be low but when the sweep is ran the level is adequate for the bandpass. So, if you adjust the levels to match the tweeter, in my experience, DL will then attenuate the tweeter. I'm using compression drivers with nearly a 20dB swing over the midrange output so my case is more extreme. But DL did knock those levels down about 22dB iirc. When I re-ran, I let the tweeter signal output stay a little lower than the other channels, instead of trying to adjust them all to the -12dB point, and the tweeter levels weren't attenuated nearly as much. Just something to consider.

I could see the subwoofer being similar where there's not as much energy in it's limited bandpass and this also may come in to play with the "subwoofer" checkbox because I believe the sweep is different (I'd have to verify) if an item is checked as 'subwoofer'.

I think in those cases (like the tweeter and maybe the sub) it may be best to ignore the output level bar or use some reasoning there and determine the appropriate level to adjust all other channels based on this.


^ Lot of "thinking". Beware.
However in Dirac, there is a option that you can tick and choose that those channels are "Subwoofer" so that it will output in their words, a correct signal that takes into account that its not a full range speaker. I would think that would correct this issue....?
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Old 07-16-2019   #507
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Repost for those who donít read back pages , this one has good info


Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
I think this may be caused by the setup of output levels in the DL menu. And this may be one reason why we are told to use DL in 2-channel mode. If DL is expecting full range signal then setting up the inputs/outputs for a channel that has very limited passband may be throwing the process for a loop. For example, consider tweeters... if they're high pass relatively high there's not as much spectrum to collect so the output level reader may be low but when the sweep is ran the level is adequate for the bandpass. So, if you adjust the levels to match the tweeter, in my experience, DL will then attenuate the tweeter. I'm using compression drivers with nearly a 20dB swing over the midrange output so my case is more extreme. But DL did knock those levels down about 22dB iirc. When I re-ran, I let the tweeter signal output stay a little lower than the other channels, instead of trying to adjust them all to the -12dB point, and the tweeter levels weren't attenuated nearly as much. Just something to consider.

I could see the subwoofer being similar where there's not as much energy in it's limited bandpass and this also may come in to play with the "subwoofer" checkbox because I believe the sweep is different (I'd have to verify) if an item is checked as 'subwoofer'.

I think in those cases (like the tweeter and maybe the sub) it may be best to ignore the output level bar or use some reasoning there and determine the appropriate level to adjust all other channels based on this.


^ Lot of "thinking". Beware.


Yeah sorta, that and I think mostly because
2ch mode will linearize crossover phase distortion
Multichannel wonít see the phase change as itís at the beginning and end only and it may ignore that.

So youíll get better ďphaseĒ between all drivers on 2ch

Itís will make the transfer functions match 1st before it tryed to make phase flat
Iíve spent about 6mo studying what itís doing by looping back myDL into REW and trying to make sense of what itís doing, because at the time I was still measuring wraps and expecting flat phase not knowing how phase sounds when a change is made. It took awhile to nail down how it works fully over the course of a few thousand measurements.


Each Dirac channel was intended for a full spectrum stereo channel

If one had rears or speakers substantially farther than 1/4 wavelength another Dirac channel is in order except maybe a tweeter when turning down 2000 degrees of phase is only a few taps , but nevertheless a waste of fir power, even with dead nuts TA the other 9 measurements are anchored to the 1st. Each of the 9 has a timing reference, the last sweep in each measurement, itís based of ch1 in the system or what it sees as the 1st Dirac channel in mixer

It associates the timing of each measurement to the first, so even dead nuts TA wonít suffice and it will see the true phase, it has to to be able to make the correction. And the other measurements are all over the place


2ch on fronts is definitely how it should be used, you could add the sub also if your GD is low and TA is clean, I did it that way for a long time.


But again, and I will always advocate what sounds better vs what measures better. Maybe the crossover GD is what makes the soundstage better to you or not, only you can like or dislike how each way of using this dsp in the many ways it can be done. But to be clear 2ch is proper for each full range stereo channel

And thatís why they have the BM before DL so you can split the sub and highs crossover before Dirac and the phase shift will affect the entire dsp , so if you do decide to do 3ch Dirac to get that awesome control over your sub the shift isnít audible

So when you have letís say 6 Dirac channels going , if they arenít linked to each other on a single target Dirac will do seperate corrections to all of them independently and do nothing to make each of those channels phase well together it only looks at what is linked. In the case of 6 or 8channels it wouldnít work to link them all together if there band limited because of the extreme eq that would be applied so linked pair is the only option but in that mode with band limited donít expect any crossover linearizations it will only do eq and phase correction on linked pairs , in that case it would only be the passbands and thereís usually most of the time not any phase issues in passbands except those caused by reflections, again it does nothing to crossovers


Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
However in Dirac, there is a option that you can tick and choose that those channels are "Subwoofer" so that it will output in their words, a correct signal that takes into account that its not a full range speaker. I would think that would correct this issue....?
Erin dosent have DL (Erin go get one already! )

It adds subwoofer for the BM , so that it can extract the correct timing from all channels and send to sub. The Dirac side canít detect the settings in the plug in as itís a Dirac made software that is used across many brands platforms , so you need to check mark it manually

You could set it to extract signal from 6ch of input, if those channels arenít the same in level or timing , it needs to know so it can make that signal that is sent to the sub correct for the sub sweeps.

And yes also because itís band limited , but not entirely , Dirac will curtain off automatically any band limitations on any channel , the band limited remark Erin made was him thinking......

But primarily, it gives back up to 10db for sub channel, chalking that box will give you the added gain as part of BM

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

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Old 07-16-2019   #508
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Repost for those who donít read back pages , this one has good info













Yeah sorta, that and I think mostly because

2ch mode will linearize crossover phase distortion

Multichannel wonít see the phase change as itís at the beginning and end only and it may ignore that.



So youíll get better ďphaseĒ between all drivers on 2ch



Itís will make the transfer functions match 1st before it tryed to make phase flat

Iíve spent about 6mo studying what itís doing by looping back myDL into REW and trying to make sense of what itís doing, because at the time I was still measuring wraps and expecting flat phase not knowing how phase sounds when a change is made. It took awhile to nail down how it works fully over the course of a few thousand measurements.





Each Dirac channel was intended for a full spectrum stereo channel



If one had rears or speakers substantially farther than 1/4 wavelength another Dirac channel is in order except maybe a tweeter when turning down 2000 degrees of phase is only a few taps , but nevertheless a waste of fir power, even with dead nuts TA the other 9 measurements are anchored to the 1st. Each of the 9 has a timing reference, the last sweep in each measurement, itís based of ch1 in the system or what it sees as the 1st Dirac channel in mixer



It associates the timing of each measurement to the first, so even dead nuts TA wonít suffice and it will see the true phase, it has to to be able to make the correction. And the other measurements are all over the place





2ch on fronts is definitely how it should be used, you could add the sub also if your GD is low and TA is clean, I did it that way for a long time.





But again, and I will always advocate what sounds better vs what measures better. Maybe the crossover GD is what makes the soundstage better to you or not, only you can like or dislike how each way of using this dsp in the many ways it can be done. But to be clear 2ch is proper for each full range stereo channel



And thatís why they have the BM before DL so you can split the sub and highs crossover before Dirac and the phase shift will affect the entire dsp , so if you do decide to do 3ch Dirac to get that awesome control over your sub the shift isnít audible



So when you have letís say 6 Dirac channels going , if they arenít linked to each other on a single target Dirac will do seperate corrections to all of them independently and do nothing to make each of those channels phase well together it only looks at what is linked. In the case of 6 or 8channels it wouldnít work to link them all together if there band limited because of the extreme eq that would be applied so linked pair is the only option but in that mode with band limited donít expect any crossover linearizations it will only do eq and phase correction on linked pairs , in that case it would only be the passbands and thereís usually most of the time not any phase issues in passbands except those caused by reflections, again it does nothing to crossovers









Erin dosent have DL (Erin go get one already! )



It adds subwoofer for the BM , so that it can extract the correct timing from all channels and send to sub.



You could set it to extract signal from 6ch of input, if those channels arenít the same in level or timing , it needs to know so it can make that signal that is sent to the sub correct for the sub sweeps.



And yes also because itís band limited , but not entirely , Dirac will curtain off automatically any band limitations on any channel , the band limited remark Erin made was him thinking......
Erin does have Dl. He has mine while i rebuild horns.

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Old 07-16-2019   #509
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Erin does have Dl. He has mine while i rebuild horns.

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That lucky ducky.
Arenít you the nicest dood ever ,
Thatís actually really cool of you.


I actually think Iím going back to my ddrc22d and 2x4hds
I kinda miss that rabbihole of delays and all linear phase crossovers before DL

Even tho it still sounds spaceship both ways , I kinda miss all the USB cords!

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

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Old 07-16-2019   #510
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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That lucky ducky.

Arenít you the nicest dood ever ,

Thatís actually really cool of you.





I actually think Iím going back to my ddrc22d and 2x4hds

I kinda miss that rabbihole of delays and all linear phase crossovers before DL



Even tho it still sounds spaceship both ways , I kinda miss all the USB cords!
LESS CLUTTER. LET IT GO. COME BUILD MINE..

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Old 07-16-2019   #511
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Hmm. So maybe do a tape measurement of each driver for t/a. Use the 10bands for crossover correction then run dirac with 7 channels and have left mb,mr,tw linked. And right sub,rmb,rmr,tw linked.

Then have the target be the full house curve.

Would you have to worry about it boosting the V of the crossovers?

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Old 07-16-2019   #512
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
Hmm. So maybe do a tape measurement of each driver for t/a. Use the 10bands for crossover correction then run dirac with 7 channels and have left mb,mr,tw linked. And right sub,rmb,rmr,tw linked.

Then have the target be the full house curve.

Would you have to worry about it boosting the V of the crossovers?

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Nope.

2 or 3ch DL for fronts with sub

Do your pre ta how you want.

I chose the 8ch TA numbers with excellent results, tape measure is fine also
Or do some measurements and see how they align.
Whatever , just do 2 or 3 ch DL

If have rears do 4 or 5 ch DL

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 07-16-2019   #513
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Nope.



2 or 3ch DL for fronts with sub



Do your pre ta how you want.



I chose the 8ch TA numbers with excellent results, tape measure is fine also

Or do some measurements and see how they align.

Whatever , just do 2 or 3 ch DL



If have rears do 4 or 5 ch DL
Kinda defeats the purpose of 8 out :/

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Old 07-16-2019   #514
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Kinda defeats the purpose of 8 out :/

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That could be our issue! More does not always mean better! :-p

But I guess in this case, unless Dirac has a loop feature as in run dirac on each and every driver then do a Dirac tune again on each channel with the tuned Dirac Drivers taking into account the crossovers in this case...... that might actually be better...
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Old 07-16-2019   #515
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Remember when I was talking about Dirac works better when drawing straight lines.

And I almost got killed for saying that. And flames and got questioned down.

Well......I wasnít joking and I still trying to say the same dam thing

Draw straight (ish) lines donít make these ragged changes
It will blow

The purpose of 8ch Dirac is for 8 full range channels.

Letís say you had a center and rears and rear rears and doors and a sub
(8ch)

For US SQ guys that only use fronts and a sub

2 or 3 DL channels with straight (ish) lines drawn and youíll be blown away


Iím the exception because I have 2ch DL in front of my 8ch

So I run my 8ch for the timing and the eq and the crossovers and the inband fir and let my 2ch DL do the crossover fir and my main eq



No no no no loop features it does not have that. I have a ddrc22d in front of my CDSPDL I have 10ch of Dirac 2 of which pass through on a seperate correction,

Itís a 2ch Dirac with 8ch Dirac for my own craziness


Like I said earlier I bypass my ddrc22d tonight and ran 3ch off the cdsp and itís still spaceship, the loopback was only for analysis in REW not for listening

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

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Old 07-16-2019   #516
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Remember when I was talking about Dirac works better when drawing straight lines.



And I almost got killed for saying that. And flames and got questioned down.



Well......I wasnít joking and I still trying to say the same dam thing



Draw straight (ish) lines donít make these ragged changes

It will blow



The purpose of 8ch Dirac is for 8 full range channels.



Letís say you had a center and rears and rear rears and doors and a sub

(8ch)



For US SQ guys that only use fronts and a sub



2 or 3 DL channels with straight (ish) lines drawn and youíll be blown away
Im confused by what you mean by full range channels. Is every channel not full range before we put a hp/lp on it? Center, rears, ect would all have some filter on it.

And what do you mean by a straight line Exactly? Can you show me in pics?

Not criticism, just curious trying to understand

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Old 07-16-2019   #517
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
Im confused by what you mean by full range channels. Is every channel not full range before we put a hp/lp on it? Center, rears, ect would all have some filter on it.

And what do you mean by a straight line Exactly? Can you show me in pics?

Not criticism, just curious trying to understand

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Full range channels or ďchannelsĒ to be specific

Left front is a channel (no matter how many speakers make up that channel thatís one full range channel , and so on and so-forth.

Center is concidered itís own ďchannelĒ

Right rear is a channel ,

Us SQ guys use two channel plus sub
Many speakers in that two channel system , so two channel plus sub would be 3 Dirac channels (or two would work also)

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 07-16-2019   #518
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
This is what I found as well. I could be using the exact same target curve from my AP1 and Dirac end result and even my rough RTA measurements shows similar result, they sound totally different. Tonality is the one where it seems to differ the most. I suspect it is because Dirac applies a maximum boost of up to 10db while APL1 default is db. So unless your target curve in Dirac is all below or you ensure it is not more then 6db above your measured response, that could very well be the issue.

I find that APL1 measurements and curve even with different runs has very similar end result and tonality and sound. While Dirac with each 9 measurement run, does seem to differ somewhat. Not always alot of difference but there are difference.

My rough RTA measurements also seem to show that Dirac i all different target curve, shows a peak of around 5-8db in the 50hz region. APL1 tune does not show that. So it seems like even with a 4 way 2 channel DIRAC tune, it does not take care of this peak in the 50hz region.

Still trying to figure a good target for my Dirac tunes. Many are close but just not totally there.

Dirac ignores room modes

If you have a peak at 50 youíll have one at 200 and 400 also

It wonít cut those room modes when you draw a straight target over it
The room modes by cutting the gain out will make it sound spectral but will affect the time domain negatively. It will look at the speakers direct sound vs reflected sound, the boost caused by the room should be left or it can cause detrimental problems to the spectrum in upper oactave s in the overall harmonic structure , itís like adding a allpass filter to fix a null , you have to make the choose which you like more the null or or screwed up time domain.

In this case you would have to pick which you like more absolute spectral balance or a better time domain and cleaner impulse

This only happens in modal areas , so everything above room modes it wonít happen , usually in a car itís every peak under 400hz

It will also ignore deep dips for the opposite reason unless the dip is present in all measurements equally.



You can use the target and pull that down a little if you like with less ill effects than using peq , but from a standpoint of ambiance and music presentation it should be left alone



Thatís where I get into the whole do what you like , some ppl just want there measurements flat and donít care or wonít accept the good reason not to do something. And thatís perfectly okay. I donít care to get into some argument over anything, some might want to argue that itís better this way or that way and I say do whatever you want.........da.....na....shhhhhhhhh


And believe me......and I wonít say why
Apl is not this advanced. I wonít get into it so donít ask
Apl does things completely different.
It a plain old minimum phase eq thatís done in fir , and the phase ďcorrection partĒ is excess GD only. Itís oblivious to room. Itís not a room correction device , itís a Group delay removal device that is very limited. The fact that all of itís ďcorrectionĒ is done using a finite filter is like, big fucking deal , any dsp can do 90% of what it can do without any fir.

Dirac is a true room correction, it looks at issues in the room and helps solve problems in time domain that cause things to sound bad, group delay dosent always sound bad. Iíve used normal minimum phase crossovers for years and used the group delay from the crossover to help shape my sound stage.

Nobody 5 years go said, ďoooh that car has too much group delay I donít like itĒ
Nobody, because itís hard to hear group delay, at least itís hard to tell how bad it is unless you have a way of getting rid of it. So removing group delay definitely helps the sound, itís just not always what makes things sound bad in the time domain, oftentimes the room is the problem instead of a crossover phase shift, weíve lived happily with that for years

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 07-16-2019 at 03:14 AM..
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Old 07-16-2019   #519
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Dirac ignores room modes



If you have a peak at 50 youíll have one at 200 and 400 also



It wonít cut those room modes when you draw a straight target over it

The room modes by cutting the gain out will make it sound spectral but will affect the time domain negatively. It will look at the speakers direct sound vs reflected sound, the boost caused by the room should be left or it can cause detrimental problems to the spectrum in upper oactave s in the overall harmonic structure , itís like adding a allpass filter to fix a null , you have to make the choose which you like more the null or or screwed up time domain.



In this case you would have to pick which you like more absolute spectral balance or a better time domain and cleaner impulse



This only happens in modal areas , so everything above room modes it wonít happen , usually in a car itís every peak under 400hz



It will also ignore deep dips for the opposite reason unless the dip is present in all measurements equally.







You can use the target and pull that down a little if you like with less ill effects than using peq , but from a standpoint of ambiance and music presentation it should be left alone







Thatís where I get into the whole do what you like , some ppl just want there measurements flat and donít care or wonít accept the good reason not to do something. And thatís perfectly okay.
I think this comment is really important.

All that being said. Do you think having a pretune(before dirac)to a curve is overall a bad idea because it messes with um... whatever it is you just said o_0

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Old 07-16-2019   #520
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
I think this comment is really important.

All that being said. Do you think having a pretune(before dirac)to a curve is overall a bad idea because it messes with um... whatever it is you just said o_0

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


If anyone goes back and reads what Iíve been saying and can seperate my mistake on my ddrc22d along with the cdsp and thatís whole bad advice and use fairness keeping that in mind (because it was a mistaken and not intended)

And between the lines Iíve said only one thing.

Use peq to fix problems at the speaker , use Dirac to fix the problems at the room



Tune your crossovers with peq , use peq if you near field measurements are shit , anotherwords if you use horns (haha!) get the speaker to play flat and have nicely tuned crossovers in the nearfield meaning less than a foot away from speaker. Let Dirac do the rest and thatís the best



But donít go crazy on eq , over correcting sucks, just mildly knock down any big peaks , that all. Donít try to make it perfectly flat. Donít do that,

Use peq to fix bad crossover behavior, and knock down any large wide Q peaks .

Dirac can handle everything else. 10peqs is a lot..


My horns use 9 pre Dirac peq slots
All my speakers use 2 and each of those two is a 2db cut with a Q under 2
My sub uses zero

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 07-16-2019 at 03:38 AM..
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Old 07-16-2019   #521
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
If anyone goes back and reads what Iíve been saying and can seperate my mistake on my ddrc22d along with the cdsp and thatís whole bad advice and use fairness keeping that in mind (because it was a mistaken and not intended)

And between the lines Iíve said only one thing.

Use peq to fix problems at the speaker , use Dirac to fix the problems at the room



Tune your crossovers with peq , use peq if you near field measurements are shit , anotherwords if you use horns (haha!) get the speaker to play flat and have nicely tuned crossovers in the nearfield meaning less than a foot away from speaker. Let Dirac do the rest and thatís the best



But donít go crazy on eq , over correcting sucks, just mildly knock down any big peaks , that all. Donít try to make it perfectly flat. Donít do that,

Use peq to fix bad crossover behavior, and knock down any large wide Q peaks .

Dirac can handle everything else. 10peqs is a lot..


My horns use 9 pre Dirac peq slots
All my speakers use 2 and each of those two is a 2db cut with a Q under 2
My sub uses zero
See. 20pages later, we just needed a Tl;Dr
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Old 07-16-2019   #522
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Dirac ignores room modes

If you have a peak at 50 youíll have one at 200 and 400 also

It wonít cut those room modes when you draw a straight target over it
The room modes by cutting the gain out will make it sound spectral but will affect the time domain negatively. It will look at the speakers direct sound vs reflected sound, the boost caused by the room should be left or it can cause detrimental problems to the spectrum in upper oactave s in the overall harmonic structure , itís like adding a allpass filter to fix a null , you have to make the choose which you like more the null or or screwed up time domain.

In this case you would have to pick which you like more absolute spectral balance or a better time domain and cleaner impulse

This only happens in modal areas , so everything above room modes it wonít happen , usually in a car itís every peak under 400hz

It will also ignore deep dips for the opposite reason unless the dip is present in all measurements equally.



You can use the target and pull that down a little if you like with less ill effects than using peq , but from a standpoint of ambiance and music presentation it should be left alone



Thatís where I get into the whole do what you like , some ppl just want there measurements flat and donít care or wonít accept the good reason not to do something. And thatís perfectly okay. I donít care to get into some argument over anything, some might want to argue that itís better this way or that way and I say do whatever you want.........da.....na....shhhhhhhhh


And believe me......and I wonít say why
Apl is not this advanced. I wonít get into it so donít ask
Apl does things completely different.
It a plain old minimum phase eq thatís done in fir , and the phase ďcorrection partĒ is excess GD only. Itís oblivious to room. Itís not a room correction device , itís a Group delay removal device that is very limited. The fact that all of itís ďcorrectionĒ is done using a finite filter is like, big fucking deal , any dsp can do 90% of what it can do without any fir.

Dirac is a true room correction, it looks at issues in the room and helps solve problems in time domain that cause things to sound bad, group delay dosent always sound bad. Iíve used normal minimum phase crossovers for years and used the group delay from the crossover to help shape my sound stage.

Nobody 5 years go said, ďoooh that car has too much group delay I donít like itĒ
Nobody, because itís hard to hear group delay, at least itís hard to tell how bad it is unless you have a way of getting rid of it. So removing group delay definitely helps the sound, itís just not always what makes things sound bad in the time domain, oftentimes the room is the problem instead of a crossover phase shift, weíve lived happily with that for years

I hear you. But apl1 does do tonality very well. That is something I have come to appreciate. Maybe itís just that I have not found a house curve that I like with Dirac . Will try the auto target a bit to see how it sounds.

If a Dirac tune has a slight shift to say the left, can you correct it by increasing the right channels delay slightly? I assume that it would not affect any of the Dirac tune if all right channels are delayed the same amount?

Or can I go back to a saved project with all 9 measurements and delete just the first measurement and remeasure that first measurement only?

Also if I have wired my single sub as a 2 channel sub, would it likely sound better dedicating each sub to left and right so I use 2 Dirac channels or it would be better to use BM and have them as use one single Dirac channel as sub?
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Old 07-16-2019   #523
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post
I hear you. But apl1 does do tonality very well. That is something I have come to appreciate. Maybe itís just that I have not found a house curve that I like with Dirac . Will try the auto target a bit to see how it sounds.

If a Dirac tune has a slight shift to say the left, can you correct it by increasing the right channels delay slightly? I assume that it would not affect any of the Dirac tune if all right channels are delayed the same amount?

Or can I go back to a saved project with all 9 measurements and delete just the first measurement and remeasure that first measurement only?

Also if I have wired my single sub as a 2 channel sub, would it likely sound better dedicating each sub to left and right so I use 2 Dirac channels or it would be better to use BM and have them as use one single Dirac channel as sub?


I agree with you, the overall shape of response isnít faithful to my RTA with moving mic averages, workshop uses moving mic sweep averages where you can gather 150-200 averages if you wanted to. And you do the eq work based on a lot more averages.


The 28 measurements on a 2ch Dirac is the absolute minimum that can be used using sweeps , if I quote someone from another forum correctly.

But yes I do agree


I encourage everyone to try using an RTA with there favorite mic and let it average 50x or more and put the discrepancy into your target and than listen,
(I use pink PN and plain old rta , but your favorite way is a good way also)
The offset should be added to the linked pair of channels, (or both 2ch)
Because itís not a L/R issue because the imaging isnít the complaint so itís just the eq, so correcting it in the linked target affecting left and right simultaneously is the way to do it. Also , Iíve had better luck with just a single added anchor and a wider Q if you were to call it that in the target adjustment.

Some zooming into the target and drawing the exact shape is okay also with added anchor points as long as the Q is still wider than narrowing, youíll have to just try for self on that one

Iím curious what others think doing that, Iíve never had any issues in modal areas I didnít like tonality, looks like some of you do, my biggest gripe is it wants to add 8db of gain at 4K to my horns , (thatís awful on horns)

I just do my rta trick and itís back to perfect


If you did a full blow pre tune with peq than followed the ďall.avg spectrumĒ curve you could follow the graph in target and also see what the discrepancies are but that is not preferable because you would be also adding more eq on top of eq you donít need.

So running rta after Dirac is done and only fixing the spots that you donít like is preferred.


Iím curious what others think when they do this.

Using the target as your eq defiantly sounds better than using peq.
If you applied the peq change to every channel evenly so all channels exhibit the same phase shift caused by eq , .....I donít know Iíve never done that, using the target works great tho .


Iíve also noticed the wider my measurements the more it adds a variable , but the better it sounds in its room correction attributes, but the tonality of a close head mic averages is what I like better, so I do that after the fact, as described

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 07-16-2019 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 07-16-2019   #524
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
If you applied the peq change to every channel evenly so all channels exhibit the same phase shift caused by eq , .....I donít know Iíve never done that, using the target works great tho .
Or how about using an eq that is pre-DSP/Dirac in the signal chain that affects all drivers... like the eq built into most aftermarket headunits?

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Old 07-16-2019   #525
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Or how about using an eq that is pre-DSP/Dirac in the signal chain that affects all drivers... like the eq built into most aftermarket headunits?
That could also work!

I donít have that luxury

The phase difference would pass down so it should work fine with no audible Iíll affects. But Iíve never tried it.

Could you try it and let us know what you think.


Iíve only fixed my issues at 4K , Iíve never played with modal regions
But I can post a white paper that explains it if you like thatís very good

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 07-16-2019 at 10:37 AM..
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