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Old 07-16-2019   #526
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Here you go


http://diracdocs.com/on_room_correction.pdf

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Old 07-16-2019   #527
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Such a good white paper

I could quote off that thing for years and never get board.


Hereís my quote of the day from that paper.

Quote:
, as elementary logic teaches us: a false premise implies any proposition, false or true. So you can produce examples which will sound great on occasion even with a faulty rationale. But that does not mean that with a better rationale you will not be able to do even better.
I love that! That kind of thinking is so honest and holds water. When I argue , i like to poke at diffrent angles of certain topics to bleed out fallacy. I sometimes purposely make error in my comments for arguments to see where the logic standard is at knowing the rational of the current ideology on audio has to start to be looked at different. I wonít fall in line on the norm ever, knowing thereís so many other things to be concidered in any argument. I love a good argument.
My dad was like that, so I got it from him.
Thatís why when Iím some arguments everyone will think Iím wrong, than pages later when something else comes up and the correlation to that argument sheds light on my ideas, there not always right. But I do definitely try to get ppl to look at things differently and start to consider other things, I like to mix things up so I donít look like a know it all, because Iím still learning also, but just be careful when arbitrary saying someone is wrong about something, they just might make ya look dumb in future arguments.

Together all of us , we will change the way car audio is thought about and move forward to new better ideals. Throw away those dash mounted eqs is just the beginning, And lead new ways and embrace the modern age of acoustic correction.

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Old 07-16-2019   #528
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Yes, if there was one more option that I would add to almost every car audio DSP on the market, that option would be full input-side processing.

That means Gain, Delay, EQ and Crossovers on every input and then the same on every output.


By having EQ and crossovers on the input side, you can apply filtering to all speakers in such a way that the phase consequences are equal to all, which in effect becomes no shift since all are shifted the same.

Most pro audio DSPs have this. None of the car audio DSPs do, however. The closest we have are some input EQ on the Helix, Audison, etc... This miniDSP with Dirac is the closest available with the Bass Manager, that acts like an input crossover.

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Old 07-16-2019   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Yes, if there was one more option that I would add to almost every car audio DSP on the market, that option would be full input-side processing.

That means Gain, Delay, EQ and Crossovers on every input and then the same on every output.


By having EQ and crossovers on the input side, you can apply filtering to all speakers in such a way that the phase consequences are equal to all, which in effect becomes no shift since all are shifted the same.

Most pro audio DSPs have this. None of the car audio DSPs do, however. The closest we have are some input EQ on the Helix, Audison, etc... This miniDSP with Dirac is the closest available with the Bass Manager, that acts like an input crossover.
John,
The standard MiniDSP 8x12 V2 has gain & 10 bands PEQ on each input which the DL version loses. I used it quite a bit... Actually more than I used the PEQs on the outputs.

:EDIT: But after thinking about it the Dirac Live function is kinda like an input auto eq that is way more powerful then 10band PEQ and gain adjustment.

Also, Concerning input xovers: I'm not understanding the benefit of xovers on the input... they would introduce a phase shift too?... it's not like all crossovers required can be implemented on a single pair of channels so the sum of all the associated phase shifts follows through

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Old 07-16-2019   #530
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Just got done with a quick 2 (well, really 5.... Left, Right, Sub, Left Rear and Right Rear tune). Before running Dirac I took nearfield measurements and just knocked down some of the higher peaks.

The Dirac tune sounds good, but is lacking the midbass / sub bass that I had with my last manual tune. The subwoofer volume is set to -2dB, on the output tab, to not have it clip during measurements I had it set to -20dB. To get any real noticeable volume from the sub I have to bump it back up to -12dB but it then sounds like it sort of throws things off a little. I was only able to give it a really brief listen though, might tinker some more throughout the week.

Overall volume is weird as well, but I can't determine if that is me coming from the tablet and optical to a Kenwood and RCA's. Seems really quiet below about 20 (out of 40) but then at 30 gets really loud.

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Old 07-16-2019   #531
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post

The Dirac tune sounds good, but is lacking the midbass / sub bass that I had with my last manual tune.
Can you post photos of the filter design screens?... I would like to see how the target level on the sub channel compares to the Front L/R channels
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Old 07-16-2019   #532
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by Truthunter View Post

Also, Concerning input xovers: I'm not understanding the benefit of xovers on the input... they would introduce a phase shift too?... it's not like all crossovers required can be implemented on a single pair of channels so the sum of all the associated phase shifts follows through

Here is an example of the benefit to crossovers on the inputs:


The proper way to set up a subwoofer is to first set up the main speakers so they work as a unit, and then to match the subwoofer to the mains.

When we set up the mains, we are working to achieve smooth crossover behavior between the drivers. This requires a combination of timing, EQ and filter selection for HP and LP. All of these things have phase consequences which must be taken into account.

When we have a good match for the mains, and it becomes time to add the subwoofer, the same rules apply. We use delay, EQ and filtering to achieve a smooth response through the crossing point.

Now that we have matched the subwoofer to the mains, let's say that we want to add a high pass filter to the subwoofer to prevent over-excursion. What happens when we add a high pass? It causes the phase to rotate forwards. This phase effect will be most pronounced at the filter frequency, but it also extends up several octaves. What will then happen is that your nice and smooth subwoofer to midbass region will now have a phase ripple through it which causes a response ripple.

What is the solution?


The solution is to put the subwoofer high pass filter on the inputs, so that the phase effect from that filter gets put onto the entire system. By doing this, you have no net phase effect to the subwoofer-midbass transition because both drivers have been shifted forward the same amount.

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Old 07-16-2019   #533
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthunter View Post
John,
The standard MiniDSP 8x12 V2 has gain & 10 bands PEQ on each input which the DL version loses. I used it quite a bit... Actually more than I used the PEQs on the outputs.

:EDIT: But after thinking about it the Dirac Live function is kinda like an input auto eq that is way more powerful then 10band PEQ and gain adjustment.

Also, Concerning input xovers: I'm not understanding the benefit of xovers on the input... they would introduce a phase shift too?... it's not like all crossovers required can be implemented on a single pair of channels so the sum of all the associated phase shifts follows through
If one can plot the phase, then it should be easy to see whether they have problems in the x-over that would result in cancelation.
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Old 07-16-2019   #534
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Can you post photos of the filter design screens?... I would like to see how the target level on the sub channel compares to the Front L/R channels
Left:


Right:


Subwoofer:

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Old 07-16-2019   #535
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by subterFUSE View Post
Here is an example of the benefit to crossovers on the inputs:


The proper way to set up a subwoofer is to first set up the main speakers so they work as a unit, and then to match the subwoofer to the mains.

When we set up the mains, we are working to achieve smooth crossover behavior between the drivers. This requires a combination of timing, EQ and filter selection for HP and LP. All of these things have phase consequences which must be taken into account.

When we have a good match for the mains, and it becomes time to add the subwoofer, the same rules apply. We use delay, EQ and filtering to achieve a smooth response through the crossing point.

Now that we have matched the subwoofer to the mains, let's say that we want to add a high pass filter to the subwoofer to prevent over-excursion. What happens when we add a high pass? It causes the phase to rotate forwards. This phase effect will be most pronounced at the filter frequency, but it also extends up several octaves. What will then happen is that your nice and smooth subwoofer to midbass region will now have a phase ripple through it which causes a response ripple.

What is the solution?


The solution is to put the subwoofer high pass filter on the inputs, so that the phase effect from that filter gets put onto the entire system. By doing this, you have no net phase effect to the subwoofer-midbass transition because both drivers have been shifted forward the same amount.
I feel bad I made you type all that

I'm on board with the point your making - basically a sub-sonic filter on the input to apply the induced phase change to all the outputs.

On the "Input & Bass Mgt" tab of the plug-in - I don't think the "HPF" box is meant for a subsonic filter though.. as it's not applied to the subwoofer signal chain but to all other drivers?

Actually I really don't understand the need for the bass mgt function in our application. And since the Dirac measurement signal is fed after the xover filters here - I don't see how the phase is linearized through them with Dirac
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Old 07-16-2019   #536
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post
-Screen shots posted by naiku-
Hmmm, I guess my inclination to believe getting the sub/L/R targets level alignments correct is mistaken.

We really need to figure out what is causing this low sub level issue. My current tune that I posted two days ago does not have this issue - The sub & midbass levels are dynamic and pleasing - at the same levels they were in my pre-Dirac tune with which I competed. Hopefully this issue will not show itself with subsequent tunes I'm planning.
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Old 07-16-2019   #537
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

What I might do is copy the preset to a new slot, keep one with the sub at -12dB and the other at -20dB and just listen to them for a while. I should also measure both with REW to see what things look like.

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Old 07-16-2019   #538
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

If you guys haven't already, the MiniDSP devteam should be notified about the subwoofer level challenges that you guys are running into.

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Old 07-16-2019   #539
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post
Just got done with a quick 2 (well, really 5.... Left, Right, Sub, Left Rear and Right Rear tune). Before running Dirac I took nearfield measurements and just knocked down some of the higher peaks.

The Dirac tune sounds good, but is lacking the midbass / sub bass that I had with my last manual tune. The subwoofer volume is set to -2dB, on the output tab, to not have it clip during measurements I had it set to -20dB. To get any real noticeable volume from the sub I have to bump it back up to -12dB but it then sounds like it sort of throws things off a little. I was only able to give it a really brief listen though, might tinker some more throughout the week.

Overall volume is weird as well, but I can't determine if that is me coming from the tablet and optical to a Kenwood and RCA's. Seems really quiet below about 20 (out of 40) but then at 30 gets really loud.


You know, sometimes Iíve had a crossover scheme that on rew is textbook
Perfect and sounds excellent, phase delay is smooth and measures almost exactly like the electrical, tells me the crossover is purely minimum phase behavior, than I run Dirac and the end result sounds like the crossover regions are canceling.

Iíve had this happen to me a few times.

I donít know if Dirac is purposely causing the cancelations or if it knows thatís how itís going to end up.


The stage sounds nice and ambient and wide and all that seems ok but thereís a new interaction issue that is quite undesirable going on.

I honestly donít know why this happens sometimes. Iíve had it happen a few times. I had something in the dsp that the end result didnít agree with.

I canít remember what I did to fix it, I want to say I added a few points of delay to one of the drivers than re ran Dirac.

Does the sound get better at all if you add a little delay to one of the speakers , like the midbass, have you tried adding up to 1ms equally just to see if the interaction is better between drivers.

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Old 07-16-2019   #540
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post
Left:


Right:


Subwoofer:
The thing I'm concerned with here is the measured subwoofer response vs the target response below 40hz and above 60hz. Or, another way of looking at it: only 40-60hz syncs up with the target curve pre-DL filter. There's more than 10dB between those two curves below 40hz and a loooooot of delta between the two above 60hz (getting higher than 15dB at 100hz, for example). DL is basically flying blind here; it's going to do what you tell it to do - within reason. IIRC, our version of DL has a maximum boost of 10dB and I don't see anywhere for us to change that value. So, let's assume DL is trying to boost those frequencies as much as it can ... in those two regions I mentioned it's in need of >10dB so it's going to boost certain frequencies up to 10dB to match the target. I would expect this to be 'taken off the top' of the master volume; leaving little headroom (if any) in your system. Not only that, but it won't be able to reach your target on the sub if it is indeed limited to 10dB boosts and that's going to effect the midbass area. I would suggest maybe trying some of these things:
  1. bumping the sub level up as much as you can and letting DL cut the 40-60hz region to match,
  2. altering your target by pulling down frequencies so it fits better to the measured response (especially on the low end where you may run out of excursion anyway below 30hz), or
  3. simply use the sub in conjunction with your right and left speakers and stick with using DL for 2-channel (left and right) correction with the sub as part of each channel. But you'll have to account for how you have the sub mixed; meaning that when you play one side + sub then the subwoofer level would be down 6dB when you play both sides at the same time. So somehow you'd have to adjust for this if you have the subwoofer channel playing summed mono from left and right inputs.
  4. edit: adjust your targeted crossover points so your targeted subwoofer slope is more in-line with the natural response as it integrates with the midbass. IOW, on the minidsp, relax the slope of the sub's low pass filter and see if that lines up with the target more naturally.

Don't shoot me if those suggestions don't help. I can give you a list of names if you want to shoot someone. Just PM me first and we can talk it out.

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Old 07-16-2019   #541
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Erin,
I did the same thing in the tune I posted. Below is a snippet of my post.

Note: Sub target is above measured response. I tried upping the sub level on the output tabs of the plugin and re-measuring but the measured response level remained the same even though the sweep of the sub sounded louder which didn't make sense to me. I eventually just rolled with it and optimized anyway. The result was the sub channel gain shown in the plugin on the Dirac tab after optimization was -17db <<< yes negative gain.

So 2 things happened that don't make sense here:
1. The higher audible sweep is not plotting higher on the filter design screen.
2. Though the target is above the measured response - the algorithm is applying negative gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthunter View Post
Below are some screen shots. You'll notice my targets have some nulls built in so that DLCT would not boost nulls in the midbass. Also you'll notice the sub target is above the measured response: I tried upping the level of the sub to try and meet up with the target but no matter what I did the measured response stayed the same even though I could hear the sweeps were louder which baffled me. After several attempts to correct it I just decided to roll with it and see what happens - it worked just fine and the Dirac tab is showing the sub channel level being cut 17db so not sure what is going on but it worked.

Sub:


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Old 07-16-2019   #542
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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The thing
Don't shoot me if those suggestions don't help. I can give you a list of names if you want to shoot someone.
Erin have you lost your marbles.

Nobody wants to shoot anyone. If you do feel that way about a chat forum about car stereos maybe should take a break.
Furthermore, if someone feels like killing someone over a car stereo they need to be seen by a professional.

Seriously are you okay man.

I hope you were kidding.
Or joking

Iím going to think your joking ......

But if your nicely joking , Iíll be happy to Be put at the top of your list. Your oldskool. I would feel honored to be concidered one of the people you want to shoot (hypothetically) because I would die for standing up for what I believe to Be true instead of falling in step with BORING old ways that are washed up.


im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 07-16-2019 at 07:15 PM..
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Old 07-16-2019   #543
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
The thing I'm concerned with here is the measured subwoofer response vs the target response below 40hz and above 60hz. Or, another way of looking at it: only 40-60hz syncs up with the target curve pre-DL filter. There's more than 10dB between those two curves below 40hz and a loooooot of delta between the two above 60hz (getting higher than 15dB at 100hz, for example).
Ian, can you check the Dirac tab in the plugin and tell us what Gain is listed on the Sub channel?
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Old 07-16-2019   #544
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Erin have you lost your marbles.

Nobody wants to shoot anyone. If you do feel that way about a chat forum about car stereos maybe should take a break.
Furthermore, if someone feels like killing someone over a car stereo they need to be seen by a professional.

Seriously are you okay man.

I hope you were kidding.
Or joking

Iím going to think your joking ......


yowza...

Ian and I know each other. So, yes, definitely kidding.

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Old 07-16-2019   #545
 
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
yowza...

Ian and I know each other. So, yes, definitely kidding.
Okay!

As you were .



Just had my moment where once again I feel , cryptically a thousand fingers get pointed at me for talking.


Iím back to normal now

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 07-16-2019   #546
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by Truthunter View Post
Erin,
I did the same thing in the tune I posted. Below is a snippet of my post.

Note: Sub target is above measured response. I tried upping the sub level on the output tabs of the plugin and re-measuring but the measured response level remained the same even though the sweep of the sub sounded louder which didn't make sense to me. I eventually just rolled with it and optimized anyway. The result was the sub channel gain shown in the plugin on the Dirac tab after optimization was -17db <<< yes negative gain.

So 2 things happened that don't make sense here:
1. The higher audible sweep is not plotting higher on the filter design screen.
2. Though the target is above the measured response - the algorithm is applying negative gain.
With as many variables as there are itís just too hard to know for sure whatís going on. Might help to just start from the top... sorry if youíve addressed this all before.

When you ran it, was the subwoofer designated as a subwoofer via the checkbox in the DL GUI input/output window (where you set your mic and output levels)? Or did you leave that unchecked? On the minidsp Dirac input menu do you have bass management activated (are the channelsí crossovers set to bypass or are you implementing a filter there)? Same questions for Ian.

Hopefully this weekend I can get some hands on time and sort through this stuff in tandem with yíall. I honestly feel like this process should be simpler and I really think it has more to do with us not using it as intended (as a 2-channel left/right setup) but I am absolutely down for exploring it outside of the intended use just for kicks. But maybe itís better to start from basics and understand how to implement it that way, then move on to the more fun stuff. Scorched earth... burn it all down and start back over... thatís the only way I can save myself from me. LOL.

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Old 07-16-2019   #547
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Okay!

As you were .



Just had my moment where once again I feel , cryptically a thousand fingers get pointed at me for talking.


Iím back to normal now
Dude. No one on this forum would be on my list. Maybe my ignore list. I save the Ian list for the boneheads in traffic.

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Old 07-16-2019   #548
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
With as many variables as there are itís just too hard to know for sure whatís going on. Might help to just start from the top... sorry if youíve addressed this all before.

When you ran it, was the subwoofer designated as a subwoofer via the checkbox in the DL GUI input/output window (where you set your mic and output levels)? Or did you leave that unchecked? On the minidsp Dirac input menu do you have bass management activated (are the channelsí crossovers set to bypass or are you implementing a filter there)? Same questions for Ian.

Hopefully this weekend I can get some hands on time and sort through this stuff in tandem with yíall. I honestly feel like this process should be simpler and I really think it has more to do with us not using it as intended (as a 2-channel left/right setup) but I am absolutely down for exploring it outside of the intended use just for kicks. But maybe itís better to start from basics and understand how to implement it that way, then move on to the more fun stuff. Scorched earth... burn it all down and start back over... thatís the only way I can save myself from me. LOL.
So what I have is a 3ch Dirac setup = L, R, Sub

I did check the subwoofer box on Dirac3 (The sub channel) before testing levels and measuring.

I did not use the Bass Mgt: All filters on that tab are bypassed and all inputs are set to off feeding bass mgt. Instead I routed the L/R Sub preouts from my headunit directly into Dirac3 on the routing tab. I have all processing in the headunit bypassed (no xover, eq, or delay) and the sub level is set to max (15). Headunit is an Alpine X008U.

Just jumped in the car and took some screen shots of a few plug-in tabs:

Input & Bass Mgt. tab:




Routing Tab:




Dirac tab showing -17.7db gain on Dirac3 (Sub) channel:

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Old 07-16-2019   #549
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
I actually think Iím going back to my ddrc22d and 2x4hds
I kinda miss that rabbihole of delays and all linear phase crossovers before DL
I really like the idea of only a 2 CH Dirac tune... Mostly since I only have a ddrc24, LOL....
So I would like some advise on the best way to set this up. I have a 3-way front, plus Sub. I think I need to simply have ALL left plus the L ch of the Sub on Dirac 1 and similar for the Right side. Then tune as discussed through this post, including some finer details in the below quotes...

I will have basic TA and XO done of course first.... Those 2 ddrc24 outputs will go to my Helix P6, but all EQ on the Helix will be bypassed. I will have the Sub XO and levels set on the P6 SUB outputs but simply passing through to the SUB AMP, right?

Oh, and would it make any difference if the pre-tune is set in the Helix OR DDRC24?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
2 or 3ch DL for fronts with sub

Do your pre ta how you want.

I chose the 8ch TA numbers with excellent results, tape measure is fine also
Or do some measurements and see how they align.
Whatever , just do 2 or 3 ch DL

If have rears do 4 or 5 ch DL
Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
2ch mode will linearize crossover phase distortion
Multichannel wonít see the phase change as itís at the beginning and end only and it may ignore that.

So youíll get better ďphaseĒ between all drivers on 2ch

Each Dirac channel was intended for a full spectrum stereo channel

2ch on fronts is definitely how it should be used, you could add the sub also if your GD is low and TA is clean, I did it that way for a long time.
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Old 07-16-2019   #550
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Default Re: Minidsp CDSP-DL 8x12 Dirac live upgrade or new release help

Quote:
Originally Posted by naiku View Post
Just got done with a quick 2 (well, really 5.... Left, Right, Sub, Left Rear and Right Rear tune). Before running Dirac I took nearfield measurements and just knocked down some of the higher peaks.

The Dirac tune sounds good, but is lacking the midbass / sub bass that I had with my last manual tune. The subwoofer volume is set to -2dB, on the output tab, to not have it clip during measurements I had it set to -20dB. To get any real noticeable volume from the sub I have to bump it back up to -12dB but it then sounds like it sort of throws things off a little. I was only able to give it a really brief listen though, might tinker some more throughout the week.

Overall volume is weird as well, but I can't determine if that is me coming from the tablet and optical to a Kenwood and RCA's. Seems really quiet below about 20 (out of 40) but then at 30 gets really loud.
There is just something strange and not consistent in what Dirac is measuring and doing on its final tune on subwoofers.

1. Some positions just throw off clipping in the measurements. The manual and helpdesk just tell you to lower the sub channel in Dirac and remeasure just that position. So what does it do in that case? Do you move it back to the original position for the rest of the position?( I do this)

2. Some final tune results in that large negative Subwoofer volume. Why? No idea. It sometimes sounds ok, sometimes just too bass light. I forget to do a RTA just to see what the issue could be in those situations.

3. Some of my memory slots seems to change its subwoofer volume up a few db. Now sure how it could happen but the knob was not touched and it is under master volume mode. This happens every once in a while. Like I know it is in 0db subwoofer. then when I go do a new tune and I check the values for that same memory slot, it has moved to +3db subwoofer volume. Bug?
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