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Old 06-05-2019   #26
 
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But I'm really bad at hearing distortion, so when I hear distortion it might be 15-20%. So I wouldn't know how much to back down.
Maybe I could use my umik-1 mic to detect the distortion, but without dismantling the umik max spl is 112dB. Would my SB17 drivers distort before 112dB, and if so what's the best way to detect power related distortion with a umik-1 ?
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Old 06-05-2019   #27
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
But I'm really bad at hearing distortion, so when I hear distortion it might be 15-20%. So I wouldn't know how much to back down.
Maybe I could use my umik-1 mic to detect the distortion, but without dismantling the umik max spl is 112dB. Would my SB17 drivers distort before 112dB, and if so what's the best way to detect power related distortion with a umik-1 ?
If the distortion isn't obvious, it's not harmful. Like I said before, watch the cone while you listen. There's no reason to complicate this. O-scopes and measurements aren't necessary for setting gains. If the cone looks like it's reaching it's limits, back off until it's not, if the speaker starts to distort, back off a bit.

Something to consider, at 30hz we can tolerate 100% distortion. At low frequencies there can be loads of distortion, and it doesn't bother us. Paying attention to have far a speaker is moving, and listening for obvious problems is easy, and effective.
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Old 06-05-2019   #28
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Something to consider, at 30hz we can tolerate 100% distortion.
maybe you can? tbh, i think this is a pretty dangerous blanket statement. what kind of distortion? even order? odd order? IMD? linear? Yes, its not as easy to detect distortion at lower frequencies, but i'll be damned if i cant hear it or can "tolerate" it

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Old 06-05-2019   #29
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post
maybe you can? tbh, i think this is a pretty dangerous blanket statement. what kind of distortion? even order? odd order? IMD? linear? Yes, its not as easy to detect distortion at lower frequencies, but i'll be damned if i cant hear it or can "tolerate" it
I specifically said "tolerate" and not "hear." You can hear it before it reaches 100%, no doubt, but most people will tolerate a lot more distortion than they realize before things sound bad, at low frequencies.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/distortion

It's actually 40hz, not 30hz.

Also mentioned in that article:
"For detecting distortion at levels of less than 10%, the test frequencies had to be greater than 500 Hz" meaning people couldn't even detect (hear) 10% distortion until after 500hz. Below that, we tolerate distortion well.
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Old 06-05-2019   #30
 
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But I can't see the cones movement without unmounting my door panel. I have removed my door panels so many times, I really don't want to do it again.
Seriously no one knows how much power the SB17 can handle with a 24dB highpass xover at 80Hz??
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Old 06-05-2019   #31
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
But I can't see the cones movement without unmounting my door panel. I have removed my door panels so many times, I really don't want to do it again.
Seriously no one knows how much power the SB17 can handle with a 24dB highpass xover at 80Hz??
It doesn't matter if anyone knows. Your exact speaker will not handle the exact same power as every other one that was manufactured, and with dynamic music, you won't have any way of knowing how much power is actually going to them. How about this, if you're so worried set them with a DMM and use your 60 watts to determine voltage, set your gains to that voltage and see how they sound. If they get loud enough, and don't sound bad, you're done.
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Old 06-05-2019   #32
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
My amp certainly doesn't clip a 30W, so I assume you're referring to my SB17 speakers? Do speakers really clip? I know speakers normally response with no linear, power compressed output when the power get to high. Is this what you believe happens above 30W ?
My umik-1 handles 112db or 130db if I set it's gain at 0, so I don't think I need the linked spl meter.
I don't really care how many db I'm playing I just want the ability to go as loud as my speakers can handle.
The peak power of the amp is 300W,

The music usually has a crest factor of ~15...
Which means that the peak is 40x higher than the RMS.

So by ~10W RMS you should be close to clipping the 300W amp.

If you want to go "as loud as they can handle", then get louder speakers.
Or modify your expectations to be "as loud as is [B]need[ed/B]".

Either you quantify it, or one guesses.

Those speakers are nothing too special, so just put them in and try it.
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Old 06-05-2019   #33
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
My amp certainly doesn't clip a 30W, so I assume you're referring to my SB17 speakers? Do speakers really clip? I know speakers normally response with no linear, power compressed output when the power get to high. Is this what you believe happens above 30W ?
My umik-1 handles 112db or 130db if I set it's gain at 0, so I don't think I need the linked spl meter.
I don't really care how many db I'm playing I just want the ability to go as loud as my speakers can handle.
The peak power of the amp is 300W,

The music usually has a crest factor of ~15...
Which means that the peak is 40x higher than the RMS.

So by ~10W RMS you should be close to clipping the 300W amp.

If you want to go "as loud as they can handle", then get louder speakers.
Or modify your expectations to be "as loud as is [B]need[ed/B]".

Either you quantify it, or one guesses.

Those speakers are nothing too special, so just put them in and try it.
In bridged mode my amp delivers just about 2x350W RMS certified.
My speakers have been installed for quite a while, so I don't need to put them in.
I don't know what speakers you define as special, but where I live renegade and rainbow are considered really fine speakers. So a speaker in league with scanspeak & dynaudio, is considered special.
I'm certainly not going to change them, it's just that when I invest in something I want that something to perform as optimal as possible (within reasonable limits)
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Old 06-05-2019   #34
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

Wow, if the amp puts 350 bridged, why bridge it then? It sounds to me like you need to list your whole system to evaluate practical, effective and efficient options to help you out.

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Old 06-05-2019   #35
 
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

You are overthinking what power is actually required for midbass or tweeters. Having an amplifier that has lots of headroom is great for those musical transients but setting the gain for mid woofers and tweeters to maximum power isnít necessary, especially if your amplifier is capable of putting out 300 watts per channel. If I remember right the SB17 is also fairly efficient (~90 db) so it doesnít need tons of power to get loud for its intended purpose.

The subwoofer will require the most power so this is where you want to set the gain on the monoblock amplifier to maximum power. Then you adjust the gains for the midbass drivers and tweeters so that they match your target curve once youíve set your EQ for the left and right sides and so that they will match your sub stage without having to attenuate tons later in the DSP. I used to set gains on my amplifiers, even for tweeters, to maximum power, then I had to attenuate them greatly within the DSP to get them to match my target curve. All this did was raise my noise floor and create more work while tuning. I was being told I had to set my gains with a scope or DD1 on a 75-100 wpc amplifier for a tweeter that needs 6 watts to get loud! I had one guy claim he put 250 watts into his tweeters and he honestly believed that was happening . Your tweeter will need 15 watts at the most to match most mid woofers and sub stages unless you have something really crazy like the SPL guys sometimes do.

I ran the NVX X series (same as SB17) for a year and they are very good sounding mid woofers, especially the mid range part like Hillbilly said. I only used an amplifier that puts out 75 wpc into 4 ohms and 150 wpc into 2 ohms but NVX actually rates these for 50 watts each nominally and probably because they donít have the help of the air spring they would have in a small enclosure. Iíve run my Pioneer D8604 to tweeters that have a rating of just 15 wpc and stock factory Ford mid woofers with a 25 watt stamp on them for a year without any issues and I definitely turned it up at times but never had an issue. Where you put that HP filter and the slope you use will greatly effect the power handling too and since you have yours at 80 Hz and 24 db I think you should be fine.

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Old 06-05-2019   #36
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
In bridged mode my amp delivers just about 2x350W RMS certified...
...
Maybe we need to define what RMS means?

With a 1000-Hz tone running the full voltage excursion then I believe your amp can deliver 350W.

0dBFS is full voltage range, where dBFS means dB "full scale".

Now look at Grandpapy's old vintage tape deck... you'll see a VU meter on there.
VU stands for "Volume Units", and usually the relationship is
0 VU = -18 dBFS
(Sometimes -14 dBFS)

Basically the musical peaks are ~14dB above the musical RMS.
And grandad set the VU to cruise around the edge of the red at 0 VU.

Unless you are playing tones, then at above the subwoofer range you will have -13dB, or a factor of 20, between RMS and clip.
300W/20 is 15W... maybe with a little clipping it is 30W RMS, which is really too loud to listen to, unless you want Grandad type of hearing at a young and tender age.

An SPl meter would tell you that a350W RMS is way above optimal.

Most speakers are rated in SPL dB at 1W/1M.
Most amplifiers are also rated in THD at 1W RMS.

1W RMS is about 30-40W peak in musical content...

Hence there is no way your amp will ever be "delivering 350W" playing anything that sounds like music.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
...
I don't know what speakers you define as special, but where I live renegade and rainbow are considered really fine speakers. So a speaker in league with scanspeak & dynaudio, is considered special.
...
I want that something to perform as optimal as possible (within reasonable limits)
Special would be:
1) Some cheap rate speakers designed for low power...
Or alternatively
2) Some really expensive horns, or ribbons, which may also be designed for low power.

I have scanspeak, and they are good, but not special or overly "precious".
They are not "magical special".

For optimal, just turn the gain all the way down, then when tuning only crank it up to what sounds good.
(Don't try to blow the ear drums out the opposite side ear.)
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Old 06-06-2019   #37
 
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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But I can't see the cones movement without unmounting my door panel. I have removed my door panels so many times, I really don't want to do it again.
Seriously no one knows how much power the SB17 can handle with a 24dB highpass xover at 80Hz??
I gave mine 300 watts. 2 channels bridged from an Arc Audio XDi 1100.5. It made them come alive Vs. the 125 watts they were getting before. They handled it fine. But just because they were hooked up to 300 watts doesn't mean they were getting 300 watts. I never actually measured anything with a meter. All speakers in my system were level matched to the subwoofer.

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Old 06-06-2019   #38
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Seriously no one knows how much power the SB17 can handle with a 24dB highpass xover at 80Hz??
It can be determined using test tones, but that's not music. Music is dynamic with the actual power (wattage) changing by the second. The best advice I can give you is high pass them properly and set the gain on whatever amp you want to not clip. If that reaches the volume you want then great, if not get a bigger amp.

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Old 06-06-2019   #39
 
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I gave mine 300 watts. 2 channels bridged from an Arc Audio XDi 1100.5. It made them come alive Vs. the 125 watts they were getting before. They handled it fine. But just because they were hooked up to 300 watts doesn't mean they were getting 300 watts. I never actually measured anything with a meter. All speakers in my system were level matched to the subwoofer.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I upgraded my amp and had a similar experience, the SB17 sounds better with 350W compared to 100W.
Of course I will be level matching the woofers to my sub and tweeters, just figured it would be safer to turn the gains down to limit output and use my HU to match the levels.
But I spent 5 hours tuning my system yesterday, and overall very pleased with sound, so I don't think I will adjust the gains until I get another car.
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Old 06-06-2019   #40
 
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience. I upgraded my amp and had a similar experience, the SB17 sounds better with 350W compared to 100W.
Of course I will be level matching the woofers to my sub and tweeters, just figured it would be safer to turn the gains down to limit output and use my HU to match the levels.
But I spent 5 hours tuning my system yesterday, and overall very pleased with sound, so I don't think I will adjust the gains until I get another car.
I'm not sure about the science behind this. Possibly more Headroom. Those speakers certainly needed more power. They got louder, had more authority, more punch. They are still going strong after about a year on that much wattage. Like I said, I don't understand why. At 125 watts they were still receiving over double the recommended wattage, but just didn't have great output. They are still the weak link in my system. I purchased Audiofrog GB60's about two months ago but unfortunately have been too busy to install them.

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Old 06-06-2019   #41
 
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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They are still the weak link in my system. I purchased Audiofrog GB60's about two months ago but unfortunately have been too busy to install them.
O-youíre going to like that upgrade after tuning.

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Old 06-06-2019   #42
 
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I am sure the frogs are really nice, but they would cost me almost 10 times what I paid for the sb17's. I just can't justify spending that much on HiFi.
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Old 06-06-2019   #43
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by Stycker View Post
I'm not sure about the science behind this. Possibly more Headroom. Those speakers certainly needed more power. They got louder, had more authority, more punch. They are still going strong after about a year on that much wattage. Like I said, I don't understand why. At 125 watts they were still receiving over double the recommended wattage, but just didn't have great output. They are still the weak link in my system. I purchased Audiofrog GB60's about two months ago but unfortunately have been too busy to install them.
Get the concept that they were not "receiving" 125W.
The amp was probably feeding the speakers 5W RMS, and then at the loud transients they were clipping and compressing at the 125W max.

RMS (Root Mean Squared) has "Mean" part as meaning "an average".

That amp can supply 125W RMS, and 125W peak... I can not supply both 125W RMS and 2000W peak.

Basically if one is listening at 1W RMS then 125W amp is fine...
If one likes it loud, and one also likes headroom, then a 125W amp may not be enough... it is all in the volume knob and the listening level... so without knowing the loudness requirement, it is uncertain as to what wattage is required. To work out the wattage for a specific SPL with clarity it is possible... just it is not possible with a vague "I want it sorta, kinda loud".

And then the nuance of the cross over frequencies also come into play and the higher they are crossed over, and narrower, then the wattage requirement drops. Same with the volume knob.

Or one can think of it as... if they always "received" 125W, then they would always be at the same volume.
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Old 06-06-2019   #44
 
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

I have the SB-17's with carbon fiber cones getting 300w each from a Zapco.Speakers handle the power just fine but they're BP from 80-2500hz which,whenever you cross a speaker it's power handling will go up by quite a bit.Remember that those power handling specs are rated for a full range signal most of the time.

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Old 06-08-2019   #45
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stycker View Post
I'm not sure about the science behind this. Possibly more Headroom. Those speakers certainly needed more power. They got louder, had more authority, more punch. They are still going strong after about a year on that much wattage. Like I said, I don't understand why. At 125 watts they were still receiving over double the recommended wattage, but just didn't have great output. They are still the weak link in my system. I purchased Audiofrog GB60's about two months ago but unfortunately have been too busy to install them.
SB17 is power rated according to IEC 268-5.
After googling it seems the IEC 268-5 is a 8h test using pink noise with a crest factor of 6 dB bandpassed from 40Hz-5 [email protected]/oct.
So playing real music with a stepper/higher highpass filter isn't going to stress the driver nearly as much as the IEC test.

Last edited by WinWiz; 06-08-2019 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 06-28-2019   #46
 
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

I run the same poly SB17 in doors with no attempt to make an enclosure. I am only giving them 90x2 off an Alpine mini-amp though (also crossed at 80/24db).

I also tested them with tones on a home stereo putting out 100 watts free-air with no filter. The only noise I could get was chuffing from the pole vent. These things handle "power" very well. Of course due the nature of their impedance curves, they do not really handle 100 watts at 50 Hz for example, but that is a whole other discussion.

Fun fact: Look at the drivers in these $2000 bookshelf speakers:

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/s400-white
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Old 07-01-2019   #47
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

Dumping 350 watts into a speaker that's rated for sixty will eventually blow it up.

If it's not loud enough for you, consider purchasing a driver with more displacement. 8NDL51 is nice and has nearly seven times the power handling.

https://www.parts-express.com/bc-8nd...oofer--294-649


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Default

Anybody see the ceramic one? Is there a reason this one isn't good for the car? It says ceramic is great for temperature changes and uv doesn't degrade it over time.
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