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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #1
 
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My amp can deliver 350W to each of my SB17MFC drivers. I'm thinking about lovering my gains to protect the woofers. SB17 is rated at 60W but I don't know how realistic this spec is. So I would like some advice about what watt/voltage to aim for?
My SB17 are bandpassed from 80-2Khz @24db/Oct. And mounted in sealed doors. (The doors still have drains ect. -so not really sealed)
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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My amp can deliver 350W to each...
It can deliver that, bug knowing what is delivering is key.

How loud are you expecting to play it?

One can use a scope or a meter to capture either the RMS Power?
Or...
One can use the SPL to back into what the watts must be.
(Unless you are over ~105 dB from you woofers, then I suspect you would not have much of a worry.)
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I don't know how loud I want it to play. With my old 2x100W amp the sound got unpleasant when it was to loud, so this automatically limeted how loud I wanted to play. After upgrading my Amps the sound is clear at high volume so when I'm driving fast and/or with open windows, I have a tendency to gradually increase the volume.
So I guess I would like it to be able to play as loud as possible without toasting my speakers.
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The SB17 is fairly common so I would like to know if anyone managed to damage them with high power, and if so how much power proved to much for the SB17?
Would also like to hear about anyone powering the SB17 with above 100w without causing damage...
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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I don't know how loud I want it to play. Wiith my old 2x100W amp the sound got unpleasant when it was to loud, so this automatically limeted how loud I wanted to play.
...
https://www.amazon.com/RISEPRO-Decib...17797099&psc=1

I would think 30W RMS would be getting some decent clipping.
If the speakers are crossed over higher then that would help them to keep the smoke in them.
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My amp certainly doesn't clip a 30W, so I assume you're referring to my SB17 speakers? Do speakers really clip? I know speakers normally response with no linear, power compressed output when the power get to high. Is this what you believe happens above 30W ?
My umik-1 handles 112db or 130db if I set it's gain at 0, so I don't think I need the linked spl meter.
I don't really care how many db I'm playing I just want the ability to go as loud as my speakers can handle.
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

If you set the amp gains to 160 W, the drivers should be fine, because that will be peak power, and most of the loud power will be under 100w.

Also I would make sure the HU volume dial is near max when setting the gains, and not to exceed that volume, this would limit the extra potential power that can damage the drivers.

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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
My amp certainly doesn't clip a 30W, so I assume you're referring to my SB17 speakers? Do speakers really clip? I know speakers normally response with no linear, power compressed output when the power get to high. Is this what you believe happens above 30W ?
No, speakers don't clip, but they do as you described and get non-linear when their power limits are exceeded.

I've ran the NVX version of the SB17's quite a bit. While auditioning different equipment, they've been powered by numerous different amps w/rated power from 50W to 300W rms. I don't believe they've ever "actually seen" 300W of power due to the dynamic nature of music. I'm also fairly cautious with gain setting (DD-1 @ 0 dB overlap), so I confident in not sending clipped signal to them. Nevertheless, they still play perfectly fine today and show no signs of damage. I have typically had them high-passed at 80Hz @ 24 dB/Oct, but have experimented w/as low as 50Hz @ 24dB.

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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by Alrojoca View Post
If you set the amp gains to 160 W, the drivers should be fine, because that will be peak power, and most of the loud power will be under 100w.

Also I would make sure the HU volume dial is near max when setting the gains, and not to exceed that volume, this would limit the extra potential power that can damage the drivers.
Do you think the SB17 can handle 100W sustained?

I only have a DMM so what is the correct way to set gains at a safe level?
Should I play a 80Hz sinewave while I measure the voltage across the sb17 driver?
And what Ohm rating should I use to calculate the Watts? The drivers nominal impedance is 4 ohms, DC resistance is 3.1 ohm, and looking at SBs graph resistance at 80Hz is about 5.5 Ohms...?

Some sources claim a DMM only measure AC voltage correctly at 50-60Hz is this true?
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
Do you think the SB17 can handle 100W sustained?

I only have a DMM so what is the correct way to set gains at a safe level?
Should I play a 80Hz sinewave while I measure the voltage across the sb17 driver?
And what Ohm rating should I use to calculate the Watts? The drivers nominal impedance is 4 ohms, DC resistance is 3.1 ohm, and looking at SBs graph resistance at 80Hz is about 5.5 Ohms...?

Some sources claim a DMM only measure AC voltage correctly at 50-60Hz is this true?


This chart should help with the headaches of math formulas and and guessing
For 150w @ 4 ohms, 24.5 volts can set you there, And using a 1 kHz test tone 0db should put it in a range where you can safely play.

Music will never deliver the set voltage power on the DMM because it has many peaks and lows, if you play bass that remains constant with no down peaks and play it loud, like a 70 Hz or lower test tone for example, then you should worry about it. You can always set the voltage at 22 volts for 120W @4 ohms if you want more safety, but you can double the RMS power to any sub or 6.5" driver safely, assuming it is a good quality speaker with actual real power handling ratings
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Do you think the SB17 can handle 100W resistance at 80Hz is about 5.5 Ohms...?

Some sources claim a DMM only measure AC voltage correctly at 50-60Hz is this true?

Very hard to answer the power handling at some resistance, higher resistance means less power from the amplifier, I would be more concerned about the low levels of resistance since the amp will be putting more power with lower resistance.


I have not heard that a voltmeter measures AC V correctly only at 50 Hz, you can always use a test tone in that range, but if that is the case, either way, you will be safe even if using a higher frequency test tone.

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Default Re: SB17 power handling

Maybe I'm over thinking this but...
It's a little weird my SB29RDNC tweeters are rated at 100W, with a 12dB/oct filter @ 2600Hz.
My SB17MFC35-4 are only rated for 60W, no mention of filter -so I assume this is fullrange. How much will my 24dB/oct @ 80Hz increase the woofers power handling?
Looking at similar drivers powerratings makes the SB17's stated 60W seem rather conservative. Is the SB17 motor more fragile than typical 6" car speakers?

I'm guessing low frequencies are more likely to damage my woofers than higher frequencies -that's why my initial thought was to set gains at my xovers highpass frequency = 80Hz.
Is it really better/safer to set gains at 1kHz?
And why should I use the nominal impedance and not the actual impedance at the frequency I'm playing when setting the gain?
Minimum impedance seems to occur around 250Hz, so maybe setting gains at 250Hz would be safer?

So many questions maybe I should start a new thread...
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

You're overthinking this. I think you'll be fine setting the gain to 160rms. I wouldn't cross them below 80hz. The SB17 is a lot better as a midrange in my opinion than it is as a true midbass but will handle midbass down to around 80 decent enough.

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My setup is a 2 way + sub. So my SB17 has to handle 80-2kHz. I actually run my tweeters down to 1600Hz but overlap woofer and tweeter between 1600 and 2kHz.
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

Finding a specific wattage won't be particularly helpful. Just follow the classic, simple gain setting method of turning off all other speakers and adjusting the gain until you hear distortion, then back off a touch.
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Finding a specific wattage won't be particularly helpful. Just follow the classic, simple gain setting method of turning off all other speakers and adjusting the gain until you hear distortion, then back off a touch.
This is how I always do it. Well, it's how I do it if I don't reach the point where it's as loud as I'd want it to get in the first place firstThe SB17's are pretty efficient from what I remember when using the paper version of the woofer being discussed here.

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Quote:
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Finding a specific wattage won't be particularly helpful. Just follow the classic, simple gain setting method of turning off all other speakers and adjusting the gain until you hear distortion, then back off a touch.
This is how I always do it. Well, it's how I do it if I don't reach the point where it's as loud as I'd want it to get in the first place first<img src="https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Razz" class="inlineimg" />The SB17's are pretty efficient from what I remember when using the paper version of the woofer being discussed here.
The mfc version have PP cone, but I don't think it's less efficient.
Trouble is I can't really hear distortion until it's really bad (above 10 %) -well maybe I hear it better with a sinewave, but I don't trust my ears.
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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The mfc version have PP cone, but I don't think it's less efficient.
Trouble is I can't really hear distortion until it's really bad (above 10 %) -well maybe I hear it better with a sinewave, but I don't trust my ears.
That's why you need to turn off all other speakers, and listen. If you see the cone trying to jump out of the basket, you're pushing them pretty hard. If the cone looks to be reasonably controlled, and you don't hear obvious distortion, then you're ok. If you don't trust your ears to hear when a speaker sounds bad, then there's really no point in striving for anything more than an average system.
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

Not much, especially if in doors. Ask me how i know.

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Quote:
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The mfc version have PP cone, but I don't think it's less efficient.
Trouble is I can't really hear distortion until it's really bad (above 10 %) -well maybe I hear it better with a sinewave, but I don't trust my ears.
That's why you need to turn off all other speakers, and listen. If you see the cone trying to jump out of the basket, you're pushing them pretty hard. If the cone looks to be reasonably controlled, and you don't hear obvious distortion, then you're ok. If you don't trust your ears to hear when a speaker sounds bad, then there's really no point in striving for anything more than an average system.
I'm bad at detecting distortion, but I do appreciate a proper stereo image, deep extended bass and soft smooth tweeters. Can't stand cheap small polymer or harsh metallic tweeters. And I don't strive for the absolute ultimate sound, compared to the average DIYMA members my system is fairly cheap. Actually a lot of the "average bass heads" spends way more money on their Soundsystem than me.
Regarding looking at the cone, that's a little difficult (pic. Attached)
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

The amp gains at your HU max clean voltage setting is more important
Than the power handling.

The 250 hz low resistance peak could be only within a fraction of a second, any good 6.5 " 60w speaker can handle 300w for a millisecond.

And the reason for extra power is to fill areas of those milliseconds where resistance is high and low power is lower.

The 60w amp with a 60w speaker matching is just an industry myth, this means even if you set the gains at 160w in real time, the speakers may only reach 70w max even at high playback level.

In fact I tend to not trust amps specs unless they are under rated, and even if an amp rated at 100w is right on with ratings I would choose to set gains 5-10% lower than rated, to simply avoid pushing the amps limits even though in real time it would never be an issue.

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Not much, especially if in doors. Ask me how i know.
Not much what, efficiency, power handling or..?
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The amp gains at your HU max clean voltage setting is more important
Than the power handling.

The 250 hz low resistance peak could be only within a fraction of a second, any good 6.5 " 60w speaker can handle 300w for a millisecond.

And the reason for extra power is to fill areas of those milliseconds where resistance is high and low power is lower.

The 60w amp with a 60w speaker matching is just an industry myth, this means even if you set the gains at 160w in real time, the speakers may only reach 70w max even at high playback level.

In fact I tend to not trust amps specs unless they are under rated, and even if an amp rated at 100w is right on with ratings I would choose to set gains 5-10% lower than rated, to simply avoid pushing the amps limits even though in real time it would never be an issue.
So how would you set the gains at max unclipped HU volume, if your amps delivers way more power than the speakers can handle?
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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Not much what, efficiency, power handling or..?
power handling

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Default Re: SB17 power handling

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Originally Posted by WinWiz View Post
So how would you set the gains at max unclipped HU volume, if your amps delivers way more power than the speakers can handle?
You turn up the head unit to about 3/4 volume, not 100% so you have a little wiggle room for low volume recordings. Start with the amp gain at it's minimum setting, make sure your crossovers are set, play some music with plenty of good, clean bass around your mid HPF (80hz I think you said), and slowly turn up the gain until you either reach the SPL you want, or start to hear distortion.
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