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Old 07-11-2019   #1
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Default JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

https://youtu.be/t9D6i9pKdLg

Starts at 19 mins. Look at this mic'ing setup.


They pointed the right mics to the passenger speakers.

Very interesting to see how JL position all those mics for spatial averaging. They also mention that not all those mics are weighed the same either. The video doesn't disclose all their secrets though.

This video just confirms why the system sounds like shit during all the times I've tuned using single mic location. The response changes drastically when you move the mic, especially higher freqs range. If you make drastic EQ changes to the higher freqs, they don't translate to what you actually hear in the car while your head shifts around the seat position.

The sub and mid bass won't change too much if you move the mic a couple inches but ~400hz-20khz will change. The higher the freq, the more it'll change due to reflections and beaming.

If you watched the entire video they also mention that they did some rear fill processing to remove the mono info from the rear speakers. I didn't even know that the TWK88 could do rear fill processing.

Interesting video. Just thought I'd share.





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Old 07-11-2019   #2
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

I havenít watched the entire video yet so this may be have been addressed but one has to wonder why JL Audio is making a video like this. Might they be putting a mic array set on the market? Hmmmm ...


Also, as a side note, I just wanted to say congrates to Nick Ames. I don't know if you guys remember but he was an active member here up until a year or two ago. He was one of the first people I saw actively promoting the mic array method for measurement instead of using the MMA (moving mic average) method. When he started he was obviously new to the subject but he had one of the fastest learning curves I've ever seen; he dove right in, posted his trials and tribulations and took feedback from others. Here's an example thread:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...averaging.html

Apparently JL took notice of his talent and work ethic because the dude is heading up their DSP tuning division.

If you're reading this... congrats to you Nick! Bravo, sir!

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Old 07-11-2019   #3
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
I havenít watched the entire video yet so this may be have been addressed but one has to wonder why JL Audio is making a video like this. Might they be putting in everything Mike said on the market? Hmmmm ...
Well the multi-mic setup is fine and dandy for consistent results but for those of us who can't afford and/or don't want to go through all that do you feel waving the mic around your dome while sitting in the seat or taking 5 separate measurements while out of the car is the best way? I know a human sitting in the seat has got to change the response in an audible way especially if you're of a larger breed.

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Old 07-11-2019   #4
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly SQ View Post
Well the multi-mic setup is fine and dandy for consistent results but for those of us who can't afford and/or don't want to go through all that do you feel waving the mic around your dome while sitting in the seat or taking 5 separate measurements while out of the car is the best way? I know a human sitting in the seat has got to change the response in an audible way especially if you're of a larger breed.
Absolutely a person sitting in the seat will affect the response. Then there's the issue of, if nothing else, head shadowing (how your two ears receive and process the sound relative to the speaker placement). There are literally $4k+ head and torso simulators (HATs) used in various industries because a mic isn't enough. I don't think either method is impervious to issues but most of those issues can be resolved with training/understanding; knowing what the screen is telling you and understanding why (i.e., a dip could be caused by the car or by another speaker not being in phase). With that said, I honestly cannot say that one method is better than the other with any real degree of certainty. I'd ask Steve, John, or Nick about a comparison. I can only give my thoughts based on value. Because, to some, a 50% tune is adequate. To some 90% is.

I get not being able to afford the whole setup because you're looking at at least $1k in gear and software costs (though, again, I can't help but be curious if JL might be doing something here based on this video). IMHO, a moving mic average is the best value for a single user like a DIY'r because most of them are looking to get a baseline tune with the mic and identify areas of concern and using a single mic will only put them out about $80-$100. Though, it may not give the best result. I don't rely wholly on a single mic to tune for myself - I pretty much tune by ear with pink noise and test tones these days - and if I'm being honest, I can't think of a single car I've heard that was tuned based on a single mic and target curve that I thought couldn't improve more than just a little bit. Especially the bass, which, ironically, should be the simplest area because it's not nearly as dependent upon position; a 300hz half-wavelength is nearly 2 feet. I think the mic array method is a great method for installers who want to step up their game and provide not just an install but a solid tune for their customers. It provides better consistency for the shop. Employees can be trained how to use it with the software so a shop is not depending solely on a single, "he's our tuner", employee in the event the employee is not there for one reason or another. As a DIY'r, though, I think it comes down to how willing you are to spend the money. Speaking for myself, if JL were to release something like this in a single package that made it realistic for me to afford then I'd be interested in the aspect of playing around with it. But I'm not willing to spend a grand on gear and I don't want to deal with the hassle of setup/takedown of multiple mics in to multiple boxes.

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Old 07-11-2019   #5
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

I agree totally that a single mic and a target curve should never be solely depended on. Just too much crap going on in a car for that. For people who are chasing points in competition I see the importance of the multi-mic array. For the average hobbyist I see it more as an expensive toy, but our cars are full of expensive toys so what's one more in the grand scheme of things

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Old 07-11-2019   #6
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

I've been fortunate to see Nick's journey in the past couple years too and it's been a helluva ride! Good for you buddy, this is really awesome to see.

I wish I didn't work at Nick's competitor now because I dearly miss all our speaker geekin' conversations!

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Old 07-12-2019   #7
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Are you still working at Eminence Zazzi?

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Old 07-12-2019   #8
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
I haven’t watched the entire video yet so this may be have been addressed but one has to wonder why JL Audio is making a video like this. Might they be putting a mic array set on the market? Hmmmm ...


Also, as a side note, I just wanted to say congrates to Nick Ames. I don't know if you guys remember but he was an active member here up until a year or two ago. He was one of the first people I saw actively promoting the mic array method for measurement instead of using the MMA (moving mic average) method. When he started he was obviously new to the subject but he had one of the fastest learning curves I've ever seen; he dove right in, posted his trials and tribulations and took feedback from others. Here's an example thread:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...averaging.html

Apparently JL took notice of his talent and work ethic because the dude is heading up their DSP tuning division.

If you're reading this... congrats to you Nick! Bravo, sir!
What issues are there w a moving mic set up?
It took me a bit of figuring it out but I made a stupid simple moving mic set up that will rotate 180 degrees side to side at the listening position.

Imo simpler than Trying to take multiple measurements and average

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Old 07-12-2019   #9
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

I didn't realize that was the same "Niick" at first. That is awesome that his talent was recognized by JL and that they brought him on board. And I think Erin might be on to something when he posits as to whether JL might have something in the works. The comment Gene makes at the point in the video below makes me wonder if he might have seen or been told about a future product(s) currently in testing. It will be interesting to see what they come up with, and how it compares to other solutions out there. I know the multi-mic array is one of Andy's projects that he wants to bring to market eventually.

https://youtu.be/t9D6i9pKdLg?t=1247


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Old 07-12-2019   #10
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatLaBroski View Post
Are you still working at Eminence Zazzi?
He has posted in other threads, but I believe he is working in Tempe, AZ now.


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Old 07-12-2019   #11
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

I am now part of the Rockford team in Arizona doing something similar to what Niick is doing, which is what makes this so much more interesting!

I'm falling in love with the multi-mic array measurement method and it will be impossible to ever use a single microphone again haha.

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Old 07-12-2019   #12
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Default JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Zazzi View Post
I am now part of the Rockford team in Arizona doing something similar to what Niick is doing, which is what makes this so much more interesting!



I'm falling in love with the multi-mic array measurement method and it will be impossible to ever use a single microphone again haha.


This is the future. I bet you could nail the tune x5 faster too.


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Old 07-13-2019   #13
 
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly SQ View Post
I know a human sitting in the seat has got to change the response in an audible way especially if you're of a larger breed.
I assumed this too. This is why I have never understood tuning from outside of the car with the mic(s) attached to the headrest. In the Jeep, my left leg is directly in front of (completely blocking) the door's 6x9.
Now, I have considered amputating it for improved SQ, but I don't think my insurance will cover that.

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Old 07-13-2019   #14
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
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Now I have considered amputating it for improved SQ, but I don't think my insurance will cover that.
Don't you have a sawzall? This is a DIY web site, remember????

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Old 07-13-2019   #15
 
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

If the midbass isnít playing into its beaming frequencies such as with most three ways with crossovers set right than having your leg in front of the midbass shouldnít matter.

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Old 07-17-2019   #16
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

One stationary mic in the position of listeners head should be enough to tune for low frequencies, up to around 200Hz at least.The higher you go the more it depends on mic position.
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Old 07-17-2019   #17
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

It's more like starting at 800-1000 that the freqs will change much more as you start moving the mic around.


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Old 07-17-2019   #18
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by eststang View Post
One stationary mic in the position of listeners head should be enough to tune for low frequencies, up to around 200Hz at least.The higher you go the more it depends on mic position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
It's more like starting at 800-1000 that the freqs will change much more as you start moving the mic around.


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From a post I made here:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...43-post15.html

Quote:
You can ignore spatial averaging (multiple measurements) when focusing on low(er) frequency response! This saves you time! Of course, every car is different so I suggest you always do a spatial average to determine where this Fs occurs in your car, but you can expect it to occur around the 200-400hz area, depending on car size.

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Old 07-21-2019   #19
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

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Bad link Erin


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Old 07-21-2019   #20
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Works for me.

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Old 07-21-2019   #21
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Default Re: JL explains spatial averaging during RTA measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
Works for me.
Works for me too

"Car audio is all about compromise. There's no single best way to do anything. Optimization in the face of several variables ... often conflicting ... means compromise. The educated are better positioned to sort through the compromises than the opinionated." - werewolf
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