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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #151
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Yeah, honestly, I could have probably just used the DSR-1 7-band EQ and been happy - but since I had the DSR-1 (I needed it for OEM integration), I figured that I might as well try and take advantage of some of its DSP functionality. I mean why not start out with speakers that are EQ'd to each other instead of using a system where each speaker has a dramatically different frequency response at the listening position?

Just the EQ and time alignment features alone can make a dramatic difference. WIthout time alignment, there was NO "center image" at all - you can just hear the vocals coming from the corners of the car and the front-left dash speaker dominated the sound. Setting time alignment with measurements put the vocals right in the middle of my windshield and makes it hard to tell where the sound is actually coming from. Then the EQ just lets me tailor the overall sound to my liking. Really, that is what I was looking for to start off with. Anything else at this point is "gravy".

This whole DSP/REW/MIC stuff was all new to me - so baby steps. :-)

When I get bored with EQ and time alignment, I'll start working on the next "item" and go from there.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #152
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
Yeah, honestly, I could have probably just used the DSR-1 7-band EQ and been happy - but since I had the DSR-1 (I needed it for OEM integration), I figured that I might as well try and take advantage of some of its DSP functionality. I mean why not start out with speakers that are EQ'd to each other instead of using a system where each speaker has a dramatically different frequency response at the listening position?

Just the EQ and time alignment features alone can make a dramatic difference. WIthout time alignment, there was NO "center image" at all - you can just hear the vocals coming from the corners of the car and the front-left dash speaker dominated the sound. Setting time alignment with measurements put the vocals right in the middle of my windshield and makes it hard to tell where the sound is actually coming from. Then the EQ just lets me tailor the overall sound to my liking. Really, that is what I was looking for to start off with. Anything else at this point is "gravy".

This whole DSP/REW/MIC stuff was all new to me - so baby steps. 🙂

When I get bored with EQ and time alignment, I'll start working on the next "item" and go from there.
You can get that sounding good you can make it sound like you are wearing headphones . I use to tune like that. Its pretty awesome actually and you can get a ridiculous amount of volume that way. The procedure is different though.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #153
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

If I were to post the base measurements for my 6"x9" door speakers and 3.5" dash speakers (in rew .mdat file), would someone be willing to EQ it - just so I can get an idea of how others are doing it? I'm certainly not looking for someone else to "do the work for me" - I've EQ them dozens of times - but I'm curious if I'm EQ'ing them correctly - and would REALLY like to see how someone more experienced than I would do it...

Just in case, here it is.... :-) I am using 400hz 24dB LR crossovers for this.....

www.hochladen.to/files/fRWgE1567348026.html

I would REALLY appreciate it. Doesn't matter what target curve you EQ to (Audiofrog is fine) - I'm just looking to see how you'd EQ it in general...

Thank you VERY much in advance!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #154
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Ok, didn't seem to get any "takers" willing to show me how *they* would EQ my speakers (generally speaking).... :-) I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm over-EQ'ing - and draining the "life" (and volume level) from the speakers in the process. My issue is that I'm not sure how much to really EQ these things (door or dash speakers). If I EQ to make them hit a target curve accurately, it just takes away too much. But its also hard to just "get rid of the big peaks" without over EQ'ing too... If I just try to get rid of the big peaks, I'm still seems that I'm taking away way too much. I actually decided to try a tune using 900hz as the crossover point without ANY EQ on the individual speakers AT ALL - just some minor EQ changes with a 7-band "global" EQ - and that seems to give me the "full" sound that I've been looking for - actually seems the best of any tune I've done so far! Go figure...

So would I be better off just concentrating on getting the EQ between left and right to match - including the big peaks and dips - instead of trying to eliminate the peaks completely? Or am I still missing something?

I'm also still struggling trying to determine the best crossover point between my 6"x9" door speakers (mid-bass) and my 3.5" coaxial dash speakers (mids and highs). I sure seem to get better results with higher crossovers (such as 900hz instead of 350hz or 450hz) - it just seems to have a much better "balance" of sound coming from each speaker when using a 900hz crossover point - lower crossover points seem to cause the dash speakers to produce the bulk of the sound, which sounds "thin" instead of "balanced" and "full".

Based on this, I'm assuming that a 400hz tone (for example) coming from a 3.5" speaker and a 400hz tone coming from a 6x9" speaker will actually be different, right - especially at higher volume levels? The 3.5" speaker just doesn't seem to play the sound to where is causes vibrations that you can *feel*, like the 6"x9" speakers does (giving it that "fuller" sound). So - what is the frequency where the vibrations that you can "feel" are no longer present? I think I want to keep all of the frequencies that you can "feel" coming from the 6x9 - which would help be figure out the proper crossover frequency that I'm looking for.

Thanks for any input you may have!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #155
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

At the 2500hz mark of both dash speakers, if you have no eq on, and you were to boost 2500hz, does that dip go away?

It looks like you are cutting down to that dip. If you boost it and it doesn't change, then it is an install/vehicle issue and then you can "ignore" it as no matter the EQ, it won't change. I always find the dips that I can't fix no matter amount of boost and ignore those ones. The tune that I do that always sounds the best to my ears. When I cut down to those, I am taking away too much and everything else sounds weak.

In that case, you would set your level around the 64db mark at the other dips of the left dash speakers.

I could be wrong about that process, but cutting to dips that I can't fix never seems pleasing to me.

You can also see if that dip is actually a dip. In REW, go to generator and tone generator. Play the tone starting with the lowest for that speaker and just hold the increase button. The tones will increase and you can hear if one area is truly higher than the other or lower.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #156
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Your 6x9 also seems like it is dropping too fast at 400hz. It is around 70db throughout the playing range and like 56db at 400hz. LR should only be 6db down at the crossover point so it should be at like 64db at 400hz. You've lost another 10db.

Do you have your crossovers set exactly at 400hz? You may need to increase the 6x9 crossover electrically to get it to 400hz acoustically match.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #157
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunk54nl View Post
At the 2500hz mark of both dash speakers, if you have no eq on, and you were to boost 2500hz, does that dip go away?

It looks like you are cutting down to that dip. If you boost it and it doesn't change, then it is an install/vehicle issue and then you can "ignore" it as no matter the EQ, it won't change. I always find the dips that I can't fix no matter amount of boost and ignore those ones. The tune that I do that always sounds the best to my ears. When I cut down to those, I am taking away too much and everything else sounds weak.

In that case, you would set your level around the 64db mark at the other dips of the left dash speakers.

I could be wrong about that process, but cutting to dips that I can't fix never seems pleasing to me.

You can also see if that dip is actually a dip. In REW, go to generator and tone generator. Play the tone starting with the lowest for that speaker and just hold the increase button. The tones will increase and you can hear if one area is truly higher than the other or lower.
First - thanks for the reply - I really do appreciate it!

I just tested this and yes, adjusting 2500hz while watching the RTA *does* adjust the dip. Honestly, so far, EQ seems to adjust all of the dips/peaks that I see. I don't have any that EQ doesn't work for. If I add/cut enough dB, I can get the response to match any curve just about perfectly - but unfortunately, there are so many dips/peaks and they are so large that flattening them out just cuts too much from the speaker. So I'll have to do the best I can and just try to make left/right match as much as possible.

I haven't tried messing with the tone generator yet, but that is a good idea - thanks for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunk54nl View Post
Your 6x9 also seems like it is dropping too fast at 400hz. It is around 70db throughout the playing range and like 56db at 400hz. LR should only be 6db down at the crossover point so it should be at like 64db at 400hz. You've lost another 10db.

Do you have your crossovers set exactly at 400hz? You may need to increase the 6x9 crossover electrically to get it to 400hz acoustically match.
Yes, I do have the crossovers set at 400hz exactly in those graphs. I'm just EQ'ing to the curves (24dB LR crossovers) that REW recommends. I think a lot of issues around the crossover is due to the different levels between the door mid-bass and dash mid/highs. I have the mid/highs dash speaker at a much lower level, which causes the crossover area to not be "flat". I'm experimenting with 900hz crossovers now. I think that blends the door and dash speakers much better - but there is a huge dip at 600hz (~8db) for the door speakers that really interferes with things. Again, EQ *does* adjust that dip, but adding 8dB of gain there isn't such a great idea either. :-) Again, I think I'll just have to try and match left and right match as best as I can with minimal gains that I *can* do.

I've also decided to try a different set of speakers - just ordered a set of Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903 speakers - it's a 6"x9"/3.5" component set with silk dome tweeters that will drop right in. I just think that might be a better option in this vehicle. Interestingly, that set uses 800hz crossovers between the doors and dash speakers (if you use the included passive crossovers). :-) I'll be using active crossovers on my DSP, but the 3.5" speaker even has a listed frequency response starting at 800hz+. Very different from my Infinity 3.5" speakers which starts at 85hz (or something like that). I ordered through Amazon, so if they turn out to be complete crap, I can easily return them (although, I *hate* returning things!). Another Dodge Challenger owner tried them and said they sound really good though. Just not sure the Infinity Reference speakers I'm using are the best speakers for this install - the 3.5" speakers just have a "harshness" to them....

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Old 1 Week Ago   #158
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Just an FYI, you don't need your electrical crossovers set exactly to what you want acoustically.

Example, I have my mids set to like 2600hz and 2400hz to get me a 2500hz accoustic crossover. My tweeters are like 2400hz and 2300hz to get a 2500hz accoustic crossover.

Those numbers aren't exact but that is close to what I had to do with my electric crossovers to get those acoustic crossovers.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #159
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

What is the advantage of setting the electrical crossovers differently like that? It almost sounds like you are setting them differently on purpose?

Another question... Does it really matter *exactly* where each side crosses over acoustically? I mean is it really a big deal if one side crosses over at 425hz and the other side crosses over at 480hz?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #160
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
What is the advantage of setting the electrical crossovers differently like that? It almost sounds like you are setting them differently on purpose?

Another question... Does it really matter *exactly* where each side crosses over acoustically? I mean is it really a big deal if one side crosses over at 425hz and the other side crosses over at 480hz?

I did do that on purpose. I measured my system and had a 2500hz 24db LR crossover on the screen so I could see how close my acoustic response out of the speaker matched that response. I then adjusted the electrical crossover until it was the closest possible at the crossover point acoustically prior to any eq.

Electrically it does not matter what number you have it set as long as your speaker can play that. Acoustically phase is the reason.

But I could have misinterpreted things I have read and watched along the way with crossovers, but this seems to work well for me.

Check out these resources
https://www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...hKOj3WbZ9ZH9Ei

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Last edited by jdunk54nl; 1 Week Ago at 02:56 PM..
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Old 1 Week Ago   #161
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

There goes that damn "phase" word again. :-) That, to me, is one of those big "mysteries" right now that I simply do not understand how to measure - or fix if I were able to measure phase issues. :-)

Thanks for the links - I'll do some more reading. I need to get a better understanding of how to identify phase issues and then how to fix them.

Those graphs that I posted were definitely not my best. I do have some where the crossovers on each side match *exactly* - where they sound be. I've found that getting the slopes EQ'd so they are *just right* will make the acoustical crossovers line up just right. However, then I had other different issues. I'm learning. :-)

Thanks for all of the input - much appreciated.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #162
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Don't worry I am still learning (and re-learning from a few years ago) too.....

When I first got back into this again a couple months ago, I could get a curve to match perfectly acoustically with REW but it sounded like crap. SO I have been reading/watching videos and adjusting and trying some different things. A big one was re-learning to figure out what you can actually fix prior to any EQ and making sure your crossovers are set up properly.

Also to actually listen with my ears instead of with my eyes.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #163
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Amen to that! I'm going through the exact same thing. Spent TONS of time trying to come up with a custom target curve, EQ'ing and re-EQ'ing - and while I can match the target curve almost exactly, it sounded like crap - and I took away so many dB's during the EQ'ing that the system wasn't loud enough either. So after all of that money I spent on amps, wires, OEM integration - and the TON of time invested, I ended up with a system that sounded terrible and was barely as loud as my OEM system. :-)

So yes, I'm learning too... Honestly, I had my best results so far by not EQ'ing any of the speakers individually and just using a 7-band "global" EQ. :-) Then I had full power and it actually sounded pretty damn good - simply because I had enough power available to make the system sound "fulll" again. :-) So now I'm going to concentrate on crossovers and learn to EQ "sparingly" - and then fine-tune with the "global" 7-band GEQ of my DSR-1....

Definitely not an "easy" hobby. :-)
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Old 4 Days Ago   #164
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

If and when I upgrade my system to a higher-end DSP, what DSP out there supports full 31-band-per-channel parametric EQ and true rear fill options (L-R, attenuated and delayed 20ms+, etc)?

I see a lot of Helix DSP.2's coming up for sale cheap, but I'm having a hard time determining what they actually support. I don't even see anything in the specs about EQ capabilities, etc - so I'm really not sure what they can and can't do.

Any other DSP's that you can get used that support 31-band-per-channel parametric EQ and true rear-fill options?

Thank you!
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Old 3 Days Ago   #165
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

So after changing my speakers (dash and door), I'm now a happy camper! :-) Turns out that the Infinity Reference speakers just weren't my cup of tea. The Infinity 3.5" dash speakers just didn't sound good at louder volumes - they had a "harsh" sound to me at higher volumes. I could get them to sound good at lower volumes, but then they were overly bright and harsh at higher volume levels.

I replaced them with a set of Kenwood Excelon XP6903C component speakers (a 6"x9" midbass driver for the door and a 3.5" coaxial for the dash). I MUCH prefer the sound from these speakers.

Interestingly, the actual frequency response isn't *that* different (it's now obvious that most of the FR issues are related to the car interior - since the exact same problem areas exist on both sets of speakers), but they still sound different - and better.

I also noticed that the Kenwood 3.5" dash speakers required more power than the Infinity dash speakers (the Infinity speakers have higher sensitivity specs and are considered '3-ohm" speakers - whereas the Kenwoods are regular 4-ohm speakers). The Kenwoods just compliment each other better than the Infinity speakers did.

I ended up crossing them at 600hz - and have left/right frequency response matched VERY well (in my opinion). Some REW measurements - I've also learned not to "over EQ" - and keep some of the "natural" shape of the speaker frequency response:

Left & Right 3.5" Dash Speakers


Left & Right 6"x9" Door Speakers


Left & Right Door and Dash Speakers


As you can see, I have left and right matched up really well - and the actual crossovers match exactly as well (slightly lower than the 600hz electrical crossover).

Thoughts? I know these are just inexpensive mass-produced speakers to you guys (AudioFrog seem to be the new norm around here!), but for what they are, they sound really good. I'm just not to the point where I'm willing to spend thousands of dollars for car speakers. :-) I'm not even a "real" SQ guy - just want things to sound good to me - regardless of how "technically correct" it is. I even like "rear sound" (see how I didn't call it "rear fill"!). RIght now, I'm using attenuated 80hz-850hz for the rears and like what it adds.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #166
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

From 4k+ seems like it would be fairly bright compared to the 700-4k. Also it seems like your mid is quite a bit higher than the 3.5". If you notice harshness/ear fatigue after some time listening, that would be why.

But if it is what you like, so be it and enjoy it. That would just be a too much mid for my taste.

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Old 3 Days Ago   #167
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Yeah, I honestly believe that I must have a hearing loss in the treble area (I know I had some sort of hearing loss since birth, but the only person that would know the details is my Mother and she just passed in February, so I'm really not sure what area the hearing loss is in or how bad it is). But I've tried MANY different curves (including the AudioFrog curve) and the curves that taper off in the treble area really sound "muffled" to me. And I've found that the 1k-3k region is VERY sensitive for me - so I typically have to reduce that area.

Either that or I just like my "elevated bass and treble" sound! :-) Like I said, I'm not a true "SQ" guy - so I'm just going with what sounds good to me. This was also the first time I've used the REW "Trace Arithmetic" function to get left and right to match so closely, which I think helped as well.

These measurements are before any "global EQ" - but I've since tried some "global EQ" with the DSR-1 7-band EQ and honestly, I really didn't change much - I only reduced 1k, 6.3k and 15.9k by .5dB each - otherwise, I left it as-is. So far, so good - definitely the best I've had so far. The speaker change really made the difference.

Will listen for a while and see how it goes.

EDIT: By the way - I'd love to see the FR of some other peoples vehicles for comparison! It's like pulling teeth to get people to post graphs of their systems though! :-)

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Old 3 Days Ago   #168
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

For what its worth, these aren't the latest, but the latest I have on the computer I am on currently

Left mid: Pink
Right Mid : Red
left Tweeter: Orange
Right Tweeter: Greeen
Mid Curve: Green
Tweeter Curve: Brown

Note: Dips at 120 and 400 are vehicle related and no EQ helps. Same with the fall off at 100hz and below. They aren't there when near field measurement is taken.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2019-09-11 at 15.19.06.jpg (524.9 KB, 9 views)

2014 F150 Limited -> Factory HU programmed for 4v outputs -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, SI TM65 mk3, & JL TW3. Rears: SB17's. Resonix 35% CLD and 100% CCF, 100% MLV, Soon: PDX-F6 and SI M3 in Valicar Stuttgart pods

Last edited by jdunk54nl; 3 Days Ago at 04:20 PM..
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Old 3 Days Ago   #169
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunk54nl View Post
For what its worth, these aren't the latest, but the latest I have on the computer I am on currently

Left mid: Pink
Right Mid : Red
left Tweeter: Orange
Right Tweeter: Greeen
Mid Curve: Green
Tweeter Curve: Brown

Note: Dips at 120 and 400 are vehicle related and no EQ helps. Same with the fall off at 100hz and below. They aren't there when near field measurement is taken.
I mentioned before that you maybjist not like the way your speakers sound.

The differences are a lot smaller the higher end you go but mid tier speakers can sound very very different from each other. Glad you got closer to where you want to be
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Old 2 Days Ago   #170
 
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunk54nl View Post
For what its worth, these aren't the latest, but the latest I have on the computer I am on currently



Left mid: Pink

Right Mid : Red

left Tweeter: Orange

Right Tweeter: Greeen

Mid Curve: Green

Tweeter Curve: Brown



Note: Dips at 120 and 400 are vehicle related and no EQ helps. Same with the fall off at 100hz and below. They aren't there when near field measurement is taken.
I'm curious if you have any "before EQ" graphs? I'm just curious how much you EQ'd the speakers. I've previously EQ'd my speakers to death in order to match target curves perfectly and when I did that, it literally took the life out of the speakers and they sounded lifeless, bland and had no volume left. :-)

This time, I went for as little EQ as possible while still removing some of the largest peaks where I could - I was more concerned with matching left/right and getting the overall shape of the target curve (which is a custom curve that suits my preferences). I specifically wanted to avoid cutting them by 15dB-20dB in areas, just to get the response to match a target curve perfectly - especially since I knew I didn't like the results of that anyway (albeit with different speakers).

I'll have to do some more playing around with these new speakers to see if any of the target curves out there work better for me now, But so far, I'm pretty damn happy with things as they are - even as "technically improper" as they are. :-)

Thank you for sharing the graphs - I appreciate that! So many people seem "afraid" to share their graphs. :-) If you have any un-EQ'd graphs of the same speakers, I'd love to see them - just to see how much you had to EQ things to get them to match the target curve.
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Here are some before and after

Order of pictures
Left mid
Right mid
left tweeter
right tweeter
left mid crossovers set no eq
right mid crossovers set no eq

Note: The left mid crossovers and the original I must have had at a slightly different volume on my DSP....that is the only thing I can think of as to why it is not at the same level.... I thought I had previously level matched them but these graphs must have been before that and after level matching.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg left mid.jpg (65.1 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg right mid.jpg (65.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg left tweeter.jpg (59.0 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg right tweeter.jpg (57.7 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg left mid crossovers.jpg (63.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg right mid 3100.jpg (61.8 KB, 4 views)

2014 F150 Limited -> Factory HU programmed for 4v outputs -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, SI TM65 mk3, & JL TW3. Rears: SB17's. Resonix 35% CLD and 100% CCF, 100% MLV, Soon: PDX-F6 and SI M3 in Valicar Stuttgart pods

Last edited by jdunk54nl; 2 Days Ago at 10:09 AM..
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Default Re: Car Audio Tuning Basics help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drop1 View Post
I mentioned before that you maybjist not like the way your speakers sound.

The differences are a lot smaller the higher end you go but mid tier speakers can sound very very different from each other. Glad you got closer to where you want to be
I was definitely over eq'ing at that point...By that I mean I was trying to fix speaker placement issues that can't be fixed due to location of install.

That was definitely a re-learning process for me to check what does actually respond to EQ prior to EQ'ing. Otherwise I was cutting too much to match the 400hz dip and make it perfectly flat and then when I listened with my ears, the 400hz still dipped. Once I set my reference level to a higher, different low point, everything came together nicely.

I love the way these speakers sound now. I have the m3's sitting in my office waiting to be installed, but I need to save more of my fun money to buy the valicar stuttgart pods.

I have been switching between my wife's suv and my truck the past couple of weeks when she needs the truck. She has a dayton 408, active ID xs65 and xs28 2 way, Pioneer shallow mount 10" in their box, and Alpine pdr-v75 amp.

I can tell you hands down, the stereo integrity stuff is well above that setup.

2014 F150 Limited -> Factory HU programmed for 4v outputs -> Helix DSP.2 -> Alpine PDX-V9 -> SI M25 in Valicar Stuttgart Pods, SI TM65 mk3, & JL TW3. Rears: SB17's. Resonix 35% CLD and 100% CCF, 100% MLV, Soon: PDX-F6 and SI M3 in Valicar Stuttgart pods

Last edited by jdunk54nl; 2 Days Ago at 10:37 AM..
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