Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 07-29-2019   #1
 
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Default Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

Most of the knowlege which I got from this and similar forums says that closed cell foam is the typical material used as the decoupling layer for the sound barrier layer (typically mass loaded vinyl) and that CCF does little on its own to block outside sounds from entering the cabin. Another benefit of CCF for automotive use is water impermeability.

But I live in Europe, and in most non-English (German, Polish, Russian, etc.) European forums, online specialist shops, manufacturer web sites etc. the typical material used is OPEN cell foam, not closed cell foam.

Moreover, anybody over here rarely uses a thirs, heavy sound blocking layer (as MLV).
Most folks in "audio hifi" circles and even in specialist sound deadening material shops don't even have an idea what MLV is.

So, the typical complete sound deadening and vibration damping treatment which is professionally advertised and applied in many places in Europe consists of only two layers:
1. CLD (alubutyl)
2. OCF - open cell foam
And that's it.

Don't believe me? Check out the offerings from European manufacturers like SinusLive, CHP, CTK, Pimp My Sound, Variotex, Ground Zero ....



My questions are:
1. Did these European manufacturers and professional installers figure out a more effective, cheaper and simpler solution for blocking the outside sounds from entering the vehicle cabin - that OCF replaces and outperforms both CCF and MLV combined?

2. What would be the (dis)advantages of using OCF instead of CCF in any place and role inside a vehicle?


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Old 07-29-2019   #2
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

Because as you said, OCF is permeable to water. Therefore, it'll get stinky real fast.

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Old 07-30-2019   #3
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

I certainly use ccf and UK is definitely part of Europe, I look to amazon for a lot of this kind of stuff...

MultiWare Closed Cell Foam 5M... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06XHY2N...p_mob_ap_share

Is what Iíve used and itís damn good as an isolator, as said open cell foam has the possibility of taking on moisture and then effectively stagnating and stinking... my theory is do it once do it right 👍🏼
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Old 07-30-2019   #4
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

I use the rubber/aluminum foil backing stuff they use under wood flooring here in Florida
It has a nice padding of a rubber type stuff and the foil on the other side
Handles water great and does a ok job with road noise and can make a door sound solid
Iíve done about 10 cars with this stuff and itís holding up great. First time using it was in a 69 vett because the guy did not want to spend the money on dyno mat so I just put that stuff in it. I still see and drive that car about once a year and itís been holding up great. Really helped with the doors and floor without adding a lot of thickness to the carpet. I did that car about 15 years ago
The last on was in my sons 2017 Honda when he was stationed over seas. I pulled everything out, seats. Door panels and anything else that would come out
It is all lowered and junk like that so it had tons of road noise, after I installed that stuff the doors went from a cheap hollow sounding 10 Kenyan to a very solid dead sound when you close the doors like an old car from the 60s in the road noise drop down a noticeable difference before you could not even talk on a cell phone with the windows up afterward she could have the windows down and talk on the phone easily
You can get this stuff cheap, hell I get it for free all the time. You can even put multiple layers of it on top of one another to get the thickness that you want in a roll thatís 8 feet wide by 100 feet long, is under 30 pounds
And no smell of tar or stuff like that



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Old 07-31-2019   #5
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

The issue of water ingress into a foam is definitely very important for certain sections of the vehicle, like inside doors and below carpets.

However, it is quite irrelevant in other sections, like under the roof, in the engine bay, etc.

Does OCF have any acoustic or thermal advantages over CCF of the same thickness in areas where water and moistire do not appear?

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Old 08-02-2019   #6
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

thats not true as other poster said uk has everything u need,all kinds of deadening many shops carry it.i get mine from the uk and denmark shops carry it dont understand how u cant find it,
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Old 08-05-2019   #7
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

Im from Slovenia, and Im sure you can get variety of different materials like CCF and similar. one of the manufacturers is Silent Coat.... DIfferent thickness of CCF, MLV (2-4mm),....and some other materials for noise suppression in cars. Then you also have STP line of materials which are very similar to Silent coat, some Brax products like eXvibration paste, Ground zero got its line od damping materials..... And all the others like Dynamat, Alphard, SecondSkin, and now even Resonix from US.....

Where are you from?

you can use OCF on spots where is no water or high humidity like roof, under dash etc, but avoid places like doors and similar where are big amounts of watter present...OCF will soak that water and start to decay and start to smell very unpleasantly

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Last edited by LBaudio; 08-05-2019 at 05:37 AM..
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Old 08-05-2019   #8
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

I am from Bosnia and Herzegovina. I looked mostly at manufacturers, stores and forums in Germany. I also looked at those in Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia, Russia, etc.

I mentioned some of those manufacturers in my first post.

The water permeability disadvantage of OCF is very clear.

However, if water is not a risk, does OCF have any advantage compared to CCF?

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Old 08-05-2019   #9
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

I would say no.

Im from Slovenia, not too far from you, so If you need some materials that are avaliable in Slovenia and not in your country you can contact me and I will help get them....not a problem at all....

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Old 08-05-2019   #10
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

Thank you very much for the offer. We will arrange that through private messages.

I had earlier bought an automotive acoustic foam model "13228" made by SinusLive (typically called SinusLive DSM):
https://car-hifi.de/einbauzubehoer/d...0-x-50-x-1-1cm

As you can see it is quite expensive. It does not mention if it is OCF or CCF. Some user reviews on Amazon.de, Condrad.de etc. suggest that it is OCF with some waterproof-alike coating (!?)
If true, it means that it is trying to be an OCF which is better than a CCF ... and I don't know which qualities it is trying to combine.

This product is quite popular in Germany and in eastern Europe for automotive sound insulation.

I am just giving a product example amd what inspired me to start this discussion.
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Old 08-07-2019   #11
 
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

Here is a perfect example of dubiously described acoustic product's performance and intended application on a "professional" automotive hifi web store:
http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/phon...proofing-panel


An open cell foam which is allegedly great for installation in vehicle doors, insulates sound, blocks noise, provides protection against rain, absorbs vibrations, dampens low frequencies. There are rumors that it also increases acceleration, reduces fuel consumption and makes the vehicle unstoppable off-road.

This an example is why there are so many confusions in various European automotive diy hifi circles.
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Old 08-07-2019   #12
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosanek View Post
My questions are:
1. Did these European manufacturers and professional installers figure out a more effective, cheaper and simpler solution for blocking the outside sounds from entering the vehicle cabin - that OCF replaces and outperforms both CCF and MLV combined?

2. What would be the (dis)advantages of using OCF instead of CCF in any place and role inside a vehicle?


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Sound deadening doesn't make your car quieter.

It's not that the Europeans figured out a better way to make their cars quieter, it's that none of it works.

It's the car audio version of Monster Cable; it makes people feel like they're doing something to improve their stereo, but they're not.

If you want a quiet car, buy a quiet car.

Car and Driver has published over five hundred measurements of the ambient noise level of various vehicles. Use their data to make an educated choice on a quiet car.

The only thing that I've seen that demonstrably works is replacing your tires. www.tirerack.com has published data that demonstrates which tires are quieter.

Car manufacturers are getting in on this, and they are working to make tires even quieter:

https://carbuzz.com/news/quiet-tires-are-on-the-rise

"The main goal of the Pirelli Noise Cancelling System is to diminish perceived road noise inside the vehicle-and it accomplishes this goal remarkably well, with road noise reduced by up to 25%. Pirelli claims that this makes it sound as if the vehicle is only riding on three wheels instead of four, essentially eliminating a whole tireís worth of noise. Pirelli creates this effect by lining the inside of the tire with a sound absorbing material (they wouldnít say which one) which acts as a sponge to deaden vibrations in the air caused by bumps in the road surface."

Despite the added expense, Car and Drivers instrumented measurements demonstrated a barely perceptible change in the SPL level. It takes a LOT of work to make a car quieter; if sound deadening worked, then car manufacturers would do it. (Yes, I know that they use *small* amounts of sound deadening. No manufacturer uses very much.)


In principle it would be quite simple to waste the surplus labour of the world by building temples and pyramids, by digging holes and filling them up again, or even by producing vast quantities of goods and then setting fire to them. (Orwell)
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Old 08-07-2019   #13
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Default Re: Open Cell Foam in cars - why (not) to use

I can share my thoughts about this topic, contradicting the general basic ideology.

First, European cars and some newer domestic mid range price cars, today are quiet, not because of sound deadening, more about design, gaps tolerance aerodynamics, engineering and everything in that topic.

Second, not all foams are OCF or CCF , you have OCF foams that not only absorb air and liquid but last or behave just as quality CCF, I can relate to it cause I have seen different foams and you really can't identify what type of foam it is, it could be a hybrid synthetic foam, because it's not CCF or OCF and then all the variations of thickness and open levels to accomplish the right application.

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