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Old 08-15-2019   #1
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Default Tuning for two front seats

Any tips? What's the best compromise for both the driver and passenger while giving the driver somewhat of an edge given that the time alignment will be for the driver, but that the tonal balance is good both for the driver and passenger.


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Old 08-15-2019   #2
 
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Sub'd. I too will be looking for a "compromise* tune for the passenger.
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Old 08-15-2019   #3
 
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

I did this in my vette...put your mic in the center spot between the two seats. Your tune is now aligned for the center, so both people hear it the same, albeit mirrored. VXi gives you the ability for several different tunes, so once the tune is straight, you can adjust for time alignment to any position you want. Easy peasy.

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Old 08-15-2019   #4
 
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Basically get your pld down to under 10Ē (.83ms) or abouts is ideal



Otherwise , for two seat tune takes some trickery and some settling on some big compromises on the center being solid and that is directly related to how low you PLD numbers are.


1. Use a 2nd order all pass with a Q between 1 and 1.4 centered between 200-300 (depending how wide your car is and those PLDs

Listen on both sides with no EQ applied against left and right. Whatever EQ you have make sure itís the same for both sides together

Get the center for both sides to sound as much as possible with that all pass

(It wonít be awesome but will be better than it was)

2. Carefully use EQ and gain and jump back and forth on each side and listen.

You want to listen for the frequencies that promote the center / left / right using a relative polarity track.

3. Use asymmetric crossovers if it helps get things working better. The time shift on the crossover can be used as your advantage to help move things a little.

Work on all of the above from 250hz to 1.3khz

4. Using eq shape the amplitude above 1.3khz to promote stage.

5. Use delay and polarity flips in all kinds of crazy ways. Make small changes. Stay within the limitations of the frequency dependence of that passband. (You have to convert milliseconds to feet and to frequency......) a mid to midrange with a crossover of 300hz could be as much as 1.6ms difference from actual distance.

6. Do all of this in no specific order. Itís a matter of making good judgment on what needs what as you listen.

7. If PLD is under .5ms good chance the AllPass wonít be needed at all.

8. Make whichever pair of speakers that has the least PLD be the first to arrive
By using delay (use the hass effect to your advantage) this is not a necessary step but can help quite a bit on lower midrange.


This is the Non-FIR approach that works decently.
You should get both sides to have

a. Non biased sides
b. Spectral balance on both sides

You probably wonít have a super solid center , it will be very diffuse and probably be midbass heavy (200-450hz) and the flatness if desired response may be unachievable if you PLD is too large. If you can get your PLD under .5ms the stage can be easier and easier and better and better the closer you get to no PLDs. If you PLD is under .5ms you can have just a good a stage as a one seat tune in every fashion and in my opinion itís better than using a bunch of delay on one side.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 08-15-2019 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 08-15-2019   #5
 
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Or just put the mic in the center...

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Old 08-15-2019   #6
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Iím using the Real Center upmixing capabilities of a Helix Mini with favorable results. Iím semi-active 3-way left and right. So, passive between midranges and tweeters w/midbasses on their own channels. The center is also passive between same midrange and tweeter as left & right. The last channel of DAP is for the sub.

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Old 08-15-2019   #7
 
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pb82 Ronin View Post
Or just put the mic in the center...
Not that easy sorry.

Wouldnít that be nice tho ;-)

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 08-15-2019   #8
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by metanium View Post
Iím using the Real Center upmixing capabilities of a Helix Mini with favorable results. Iím semi-active 3-way left and right. So, passive between midranges and tweeters w/midbasses on their own channels. The center is also passive between same midrange and tweeter as left & right. The last channel of DAP is for the sub.


How does that sound when something is hard pan right or left? Santana - black magic woman

Or Hotel California MTV live performance is a good song to check.

I was curious how good real center processing from the Helix is. Wonder if it's better than Dolby PL2 or maybe even Logic7.


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Old 08-15-2019   #9
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Not that easy sorry.



Wouldnít that be nice tho ;-)


Hahaha this.

Folks, if you don't know for sure or haven't tried something please don't lead me into the wrong direction. Much appreciated.


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Old 08-15-2019   #10
 
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
Hahaha this.

Folks, if you don't know for sure or haven't tried something please don't lead me into the wrong direction. Much appreciated.


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Ummm...I've tried for sure. The center position tune is my 3rd preset. It was literally as easy as time aligning for the center position. But hey...if you want to complicate the hell out of it for no reason, more power to you.

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Old 08-15-2019   #11
 
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If you only put the mic in the middle then it's tuned for the middle. Where no one will hear it.

Just sayin
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Old 08-16-2019   #12
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

I hear you tonynca! There are several threads that try to discuss this and they all suggest:

*Upmixing/Processing

*All Pass Filters

*Speaker Placement

What I donít see a lot of is clarifications on HOW. Yes it is specific to each individual car but how about if everyone shared HOW they used one of the above or any method they used to obtain an enjoyable 2 seat tune.

You call the shots tonynca its your thread! I guess Iím just proposing some sort of format to post?

Something like:
1) Method
2) Time delay position (driver, passenger, center, average?)
3) HOW you used the method to achieve the tune

**If someone knows why a certain method wonít work very well, please explain why that is the case instead of just pointing out that it doesnít work well.**

We can all learn and experiment based on each others experiences.

Oabeieo gave us an explanation of a methodology he uses. Might not work for you but it did for him. You wonít know until you try it yourself.

Pb82 Ronin shared a methodology as well. Works well for him. Maybe others are looking for a different method for different type of result than that.

Well hey thatís why we have a thread like this. If you donít like his way, then try a different userís approach.

There is no exact one way to achieve this. At least not yet that I know of. However, as tonynca suggested, Please share a processes that you have tried and believe it to be successful.

Metanium shared a method as well. But Iím still curious to know where are you time aligning your woofers with the Real Center algorithm? Is everything still aligned to the driver seat?

____________________________

My current method:

Iím kinda cheating. Iím using already upmixed (5.1 DTS Neural on a 2016 Civic) signals from my stock head-unit that are passed through the high level inputs of my DSP. The staging is decent for both front seats but my tone is not the greatest for both seats. The upmixed signals are pre EQíed to stock speakers and already time aligned to stock locations. I can play with the headunit EQ or the EQ on my DSP but the tone of this tune is kind of always tainted.

Also the stock setup has a 2 way front stage + center. My after market setup is 3 way front stage + center with the mid-bass in stock location, tweeter in stock location, and added midrange right next to stock tweeter location.

My time alignment adjustments are minimal as Iím basically adjusting the already in place stock time alignment. Unfortunately I am not sure where the stock time alignment position is. There is also some time smearing happening because Iím summing 50% tweeter signal and 50% mid-bass signal (2 different time delays) for my midrange signal.

So this 2 seat tune method is full of compromises but it does a presentable job in my specific car.

What works for yíall?
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Old 08-16-2019   #13
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Speaker placement is not really an option anymore.

How do you use all pass filters for this? I heard about it but didn't get more info from Audison tech.

I'm using a Bit one HD which has all pass filtering.


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Old 08-16-2019   #14
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Oabeieo is pretty knowledge when it come to all pass filters so he is probably onto something with his method. I have always resorted to using upmixers, so I too would like to know specific ways/methods of manipulating All Pass filters for 2 seat tuning (even if it only worked for a specific setup).

I do remember subterFUSE mentioning that measurement software like Smaart or SysTune is usually required to be able to get All Pass Filters correct. But again HOW people are doing it in their build is the big question.
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Old 08-16-2019   #15
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonynca View Post
How does that sound when something is hard pan right or left? Santana - black magic woman

Or Hotel California MTV live performance is a good song to check.

I was curious how good real center processing from the Helix is. Wonder if it's better than Dolby PL2 or maybe even Logic7.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The audio that is in the center channel with the Helix upmixing is only what is present in both left and right channels originally. When something is supposed to be hard left or hard right, it still is. Iíd say the Helix upmixer is quite an improvement over pro logic 2. Logic7 is too different for me to try to compare it, apples to apples. Iím extremely please from both front seats in my truck right now.

Iíve sat in Andyís Mercedes at Knowledgefest and the AudioFrog Multiseat is the pinnacle. The Helix upmixer creates a similarly believable front stage, but lacks the width and depth Andyís created in the AudioFrog piece w/penteo algorithm.

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Old 08-16-2019   #16
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by metanium View Post
The audio that is in the center channel with the Helix upmixing is only what is present in both left and right channels originally. When something is supposed to be hard left or hard right, it still is. Iíd say the Helix upmixer is quite an improvement over pro logic 2. Logic7 is too different for me to try to compare it, apples to apples. Iím extremely please from both front seats in my truck right now.



Iíve sat in Andyís Mercedes at Knowledgefest and the AudioFrog Multiseat is the pinnacle. The Helix upmixer creates a similarly believable front stage, but lacks the width and depth Andyís created in the AudioFrog piece w/penteo algorithm.


Great feedback! Penteo is too good. I guess it's always better to have upmixing for those days with passengers and phantom image for times when you're alone.


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Old 08-17-2019   #17
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

Coaxials would be a great starting place for a two seat tune.
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Old 08-17-2019   #18
 
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Default Re: Tuning for two front seats

And here I thought the Helix upmixer for the center channel was on par with logic 7's center upmixing...this has me questioning should I stick with a used Ms-8 instead of the helix mini or mk3..hmmmm!!!

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