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Old 12-09-2008   #351
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

It's always better with a center and I'd go with a 4" rather than nothing, unless you don't care at all about the passenger's seat. Then no center is required. I prefer the surround speakers in the sides. That tends to widen the stage a bit, but rear is fine too.
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Old 12-09-2008   #352
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Much obliged as always Andy. I would like to have both rear and side in the back, but that would eat up 4 channels, leaving only 3 more after the sub, and I really want to do an active setup in front. Hell, just going active 2-way for L, R, C would be 6 channels, 7 with the sub, so I'm not even sure how I would even be able to do two channels of rear fill.... Mono rear deck? Sounds sketchy.... Lots more planning and question asking to do.
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Old 12-10-2008   #353
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy, I know you may be biased with the answer to this question, but I have to ask given your post above (and I ask humbly and with all sincerity). Are you saying that a recording played back in two channel stereo processed through Logic 7 sounds more "realistic" than the same media recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1 and then played back through a signal processor that is capable of Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding? For example, does "U2 Live at Slane Castle", which was recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1, really sound more realistic if outputted in stereo and then processed with Logic 7, or through a processor that can decode Dolby Digital 5.1? Thanks for your time.
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Old 12-10-2008   #354
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim0013 View Post
Much obliged as always Andy. I would like to have both rear and side in the back, but that would eat up 4 channels, leaving only 3 more after the sub, and I really want to do an active setup in front. Hell, just going active 2-way for L, R, C would be 6 channels, 7 with the sub, so I'm not even sure how I would even be able to do two channels of rear fill.... Mono rear deck? Sounds sketchy.... Lots more planning and question asking to do.
If you want to bi- or tri-amp the front or center, you can always use outboard amplifiers that include crossovers to achieve that. Side and rear speakers can be driven in parallel from the rear outputs of the MS-8.

The BMW is set up that way, sort of. The front mids and highs use a pair of pre amp outpus ad a 4-channel amplifier. THe 8's under the seats are used as midbass and are driven by another amplifier connected to two outputs. THe sides and rears are fed by two channnels of MS-8 through another outboard amp. The center uses a passive network, an outboard amp and an output channel from MS-8 and the sub uses the last one. It works great.
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Old 12-10-2008   #355
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkeypunch22 View Post
Andy, I know you may be biased with the answer to this question, but I have to ask given your post above (and I ask humbly and with all sincerity). Are you saying that a recording played back in two channel stereo processed through Logic 7 sounds more "realistic" than the same media recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1 and then played back through a signal processor that is capable of Dolby Digital 5.1 decoding? For example, does "U2 Live at Slane Castle", which was recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1, really sound more realistic if outputted in stereo and then processed with Logic 7, or through a processor that can decode Dolby Digital 5.1? Thanks for your time.
If the 2-channel downmix contains the surround information (this should be indicated on the disc), then yes, especially in a car. L7 in MS-8 includes a RLC matrix designed specifically for the car appliction and includes a unique bass management circuit as well. In fact, I use L7 at home for movies rather than Dolby or DTS decoding.
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Old 12-10-2008   #356
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
If the 2-channel downmix contains the surround information (this should be indicated on the disc), then yes, especially in a car. L7 in MS-8 includes a RLC matrix designed specifically for the car appliction and includes a unique bass management circuit as well. In fact, I use L7 at home for movies rather than Dolby or DTS decoding.
me too....in my bedroom. THX for the living room. I like Logic7. It is conservative and believable. I like DTS, too, but not like THX or L7.
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Old 12-14-2008   #357
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Dear Santa Andy Wehmeyer,

I have been very good this year. You can ask all my friends and wife. Please, please, please... all I want for Christmas is to know when MS-8 will be released, or at least a general where-abouts. Thank you, and I hope your work this December 24 is not too hard. Please tell the elves they are great, and I hope none of them walk out with the documents to all the pages of coding for your MS-8. The reindeer are great, too.

Your Friend,
DonkeyPunch22
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Old 12-14-2008   #358
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
Andy, does the unity gain of the MS-8 mean that you only get out what you put in or can it also line drive a sub 2 volt input signal.
Dup dee dup dee doooooooooo...........
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Old 12-15-2008   #359
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

You get basically the same voltage out that you put in if you use the RCAs. IF you think you need 8 volts out and your amps have differential inputs, you can always use the speaker level outputs.

I'm sure someone here will flame me for suggesting that, citing some crap about "cleanliness of the signal", which is B.S. Audio signals aren't closets.
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Old 12-15-2008   #360
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
You get basically the same voltage out that you put in if you use the RCAs. IF you think you need 8 volts out and your amps have differential inputs, you can always use the speaker level outputs.

I'm sure someone here will flame me for suggesting that, citing some crap about "cleanliness of the signal", which is B.S. Audio signals aren't closets.
Thanks
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Old 12-15-2008   #361
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

This thread amuses me... only Diyma could produce a 15 page thread that has 14 pages of "when does it come out?"

Reading is key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinity View Post
The marine amps like to drink a lot and fight over just about anything. Instead of a turn on thump, they scream Hooah!
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Old 12-15-2008   #362
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Diyma doublepost special

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinity View Post
The marine amps like to drink a lot and fight over just about anything. Instead of a turn on thump, they scream Hooah!

Last edited by dogstar; 12-15-2008 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 12-15-2008   #363
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Never

Bill
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Old 12-17-2008   #364
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Iíve read that you donít necessarily need to use the MS-8 volume control if youíd rather opt for stock volume control. With the changes that have been made to the MS-8 since it was originally announced, has that changed? If it hasnít, and the use of stock volume is still possible - will there be noticeable degradation in sound quality by leaving MS-8 volume fixed and controlling the level with the OEM head unit?
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Old 12-17-2008   #365
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

No, you don't have to use MS-8's volume control. During setup, the display will help you determine what the maximum volume control setting on the head unit you should use to avoid clipping the inputs or sending a bunch of distortion through the processor. Many of the dynamic EQs included in cars are designed to overcome ambient conditions and those don't change when you install aftermarket gear--like road noise, etc. Bass cut provided by some Delco systems can be annoying because the EQ setting for high volume may be bass heavy at lower volumes.
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Old 12-18-2008   #366
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Thanks Andy. So, sound quality wise - there's no difference between using the MS-8's volume control or the OEM volume control?

I'm using a JL Cleanwweep right now and have it set at a fixed volume so that the NAV voice, door chimes, back-up beeps, etc. come through at a normal volume. The system sounds good, but optimally, I would want to use the JL control. With the MS-8, will it be working optimally using the OEM volume control? The car is an 06 330i with Logic 7.

Iím pretty sure you answered this question in your last post. Sorry for making you dumb it down.

Thanks!
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Old 12-18-2008   #367
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

The short version of the answer is, "Sure, it'll sound fine if you use the OE volume control."

The long version is that in that car, it'll be fine and you probably won't hear the difference. There's no reduction in bass response provided by the OE DSP at high volumes, like there is in some other cars, especially GM. One other point that I'll explain in the interest of completeness but that won't be audible is that the inputs to MS-8 feed a/D convertors almost directly. They're designed to recieve some maximum voltage. Ideally, best resolution can be had when the signal peaks match that voltage. During setup, MS-8's display will ask you to turn the volume up until the level of the test signal meets that condition. If you want to use the MS-8 volume control, that's where the head unit's control should be kept. If you use the OE control, it's best not to turn the volume up higher to avoid clippping the A/D's input. Turning the volume down, just means that fewer bits are used to describe the audio signal. It's no big deal and I've been listening to and competing with a system thhat functions similarly. Deatil and resolution are definitely not the weak points in my system and any one who has heard it can attest. If you get hung up on the whole audiophile thing, then using the MS-8 control preserves the resolution of the analog to digital conversion, but the reality is that the convenience of using the OE control outweighs the need to satisfy some technical goal that can be measured but that doesn't degrade the experience. Fortunately, MS-8 includes both options.
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Old 12-18-2008   #368
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy, thank you for the detailed explanation!
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Old 12-18-2008   #369
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Holy crap. I haven't been on this forum in like a year and we're still having the same discussions about this silly thing? I was hoping by now there would be some used pieces on the market to replace my tired DCX-730......

Back from hiatus....
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Old 12-18-2008   #370
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02bluesuperroo View Post
Holy crap. I haven't been on this forum in like a year and we're still having the same discussions about this silly thing? I was hoping by now there would be some used pieces on the market to replace my tired DCX-730......
Sigh...yes...sad, but true. We're working on it.
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Old 12-18-2008   #371
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Sigh...yes...sad, but true. We're working on it.
Let me know if you need another programmer.....

Back from hiatus....
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Old 12-31-2008   #372
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Hey Andy. Hope things are coming along over there...

I have some more questions....

OK, it has been stated that the MS-8 will not have any form of digital input. It has also been debated to death. However, this fact does have a HUGE impact on my system, assuming I decide to go MS-8. I can only assume that hardware has been finalized for some time now. This is not a feature request, nor is this bitching about a feature or the lack thereof. This is me trying to make sure I fully understand the equipment I am considering purchasing before making any potentially costly mistakes.

The thing is, I am very seriously considering a "CarPC" for my Grand National. To get to the meat of the issue: Pretty much any motherboard I choose to use will have on-board digital and analog outputs. The analog outputs on motherboards tend to leave much to be desired as far as quality. Numbers like 80db s/n come to mind.

Now, there is, of course, an alternative to this: buy a high-end sound card like the Auzen X-fi Prelude. Built using high quality parts, the numbers for it's analog outputs are something like >110db s/n, and uses some really nice DACs and capacitors. It also sports a digital output.


Now, on to the questions.

If I were to use the MS-8 with either of these systems, I have to assume that the system utilizing the high-end sound card will result in a much higher quality sound, correct? The analog outputs on a typical motherboard look like they would raise the hell out of the noise floor at the very least.

The other side of this relates to digital I/O. I work on high speed digital circuits used in telecommunications, so I have some understanding of the technology. However, when it comes to audiophile quality sound, there seems to be many differences at play that I don't have to worry about doing what I do. Like, I doubt much consumer grade gear makes use of cesium clocking sources and such. Basically what I mean is that I understand the tech, but don't entirely understand the ins and outs in this particular application.

So, would it be reasonable to expect, assuming the MS-8 could accept a digital input, that the listener would be unlikely to be able to tell a difference between the two sources if they were utilizing digital i/o?

The reason this makes such a big difference to me is simple finances, really. If I need to purchase a better sound card in order to use the MS-8, we're talking about a significant jump in effective price. On one hand, with digital i/o I'd need to purchase a single high quality cable to get from the PC to the processor. On the other other hand, with analog, I would need to purchase a $180 sound card, as well as the extra cost of signal cabling required to transport 5 channels of analog signal from the PC to the processor.

Please don't take this the wrong way. This is not a "ZOMG! teh ms8 sux! It doesn't have s/pdif!!1" post. I want to make sure I understand the tech. If anything I wrote in this post is not accurate, please correct me. That is why I am posting it. In particular, that is why I am posting it in this thread, and asking Andy to respond. I want to make sure I have answers I can count on to be correct.

Summary of assumptions: (These are the main points I am looking to have supported or refuted)
  • Analog signal quality delivered to the MS-8 (or any processor for that matter) matters to some degree.
  • In the case of on-board audio vs. an Auzen X-fi Prelude (or similar high quality card), that degree is pretty damn significant.
  • Any s/pdif signal that is within spec will sound the same, assuming all other components remain unchanged.


Thanks,
Brad
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Old 12-31-2008   #373
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

he sadi he'd get us a DIY patch to run a digi coax in. I don't rmember where he said it be he gonna hook us up right proper.
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Old 12-31-2008   #374
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by AWC View Post
he sadi he'd get us a DIY patch to run a digi coax in. I don't rmember where he said it be he gonna hook us up right proper.
Post #293 on this thread
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Old 12-31-2008   #375
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
Post #293 on this thread
one day, rather than the search thing catcjing up with me...I'm gonna sneak up behind that fuggin' search button and BOOM!!! Fuq a bruthah up, yo!
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