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Old 12-31-2008   #376
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by AWC View Post
one day, rather than the search thing catcjing up with me...I'm gonna sneak up behind that fuggin' search button and BOOM!!! Fuq a bruthah up, yo!
Pure luck I found it, I remember Andy saying "DIY" on it, so I tried searching on that here.
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Old 01-01-2009   #377
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Here's a cheap and seemingly high-quality USB sound card. !.2V is plenty for MS-8's RCA input.

http://www.andreaelectronics.com/pdf...USB-SASpec.pdf
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Old 01-01-2009   #378
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

just had a read through this, had previously only ever heard of the MS-8 but not what it can/will do.
i so want one
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Old 01-01-2009   #379
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by dogstar View Post
This thread amuses me... only Diyma could produce a 15 page thread that has 14 pages of "when does it come out?"

Reading is key.
I don't want to read. Where the hell is this thing?!?!?!
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Old 01-21-2009   #380
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Exclamation Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Good news people!!!

The JBL MS-8 soundprocessor will be released at the same time as Duke Nukem Forever!

Which equals never...
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Old 01-21-2009   #381
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Good news people!!!

The JBL MS-8 soundprocessor will be released at the same time as Duke Nukem Forever!

Which equals never...
I wonder how many people even remember that? Back in the old days we had real vaporware! Pun 100% intended. Sorry.

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Old 02-10-2009   #382
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy, throw us a bone, how is it going???? Also, I had a couple questions.

First, did I misunderstand, or does MS8 not adjust phase issues? I know it adjusts timing issues, but does it adjust phase problems?

Second, if the Imprint from Apline has approximately 500 points of eq, then how many does MS8 have, and how many from 20Hz-100Hz where you've said many problems are?
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Old 02-10-2009   #383
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by donkeypunch22 View Post
Second, if the Imprint from Apline has approximately 500 points of eq, then how many does MS8 have, and how many from 20Hz-100Hz where you've said many problems are?
Just as an aside, the Imprint completely sucks. I've tried it pretty extensively, and I'd say don't even bother with it. You'll get much better results spending an hour tuning manually with sweeps. One of its biggest problems (at least on the model I own) is that it refuses to let you set your own xover points/slopes when it is in auto-EQ mode. It tries to calculate your xover points from its measurements. Stupid.

But I think your question is an important one. Cars have serious midbass problems, around 60-160 I'd say depending on the car. And it's important to get the frequency just right for those standing wave modes. One of the things that seems to be sorely lacking in the car audio world is precisely controllable parametric EQs. Which is why so many of us have had to use pro audio EQs instead. Until the MS-8 comes out, hopefully.

So yeah. Any updates on the release, Andy?

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Old 02-10-2009   #384
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

With all of the tongue-in-cheek pokes at the release date, I doubt Andy would want to chime in but ya never know. Seems like a pretty reasonable guy.

Kkant, your comments experience with the Imprint is interesting. I know in my truck, I got a pretty bad 160Hz-ish resonance. I tried with Alpine 3401 7-band fully parametric analog EQ to smooth it out but it actually sounded better when I low-passed my midbass over at around 120. I left a gap there. My mids came in at about 200 and the crossed over gap sounded better than trying to EQ it out.
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Old 02-10-2009   #385
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy knows we're just joshin with him. Right Andy?

That's a good point about leaving an xover gap, sometimes your can solve the problem that way. But not always, IME. It's a shame we have to resort to stuff like that, rather than having access to real EQs that are fully adjustable. If Behringer can do it for $250 on a pretty small circuit board, I don't see why there's no car audio equivalent.

Anyway...the MS-8 is gonna be better than all of the above, so it's a moot point. Or it will soon be a moot point. Hopefully.

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Old 02-12-2009   #386
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

We deserve all the ridicule you guys can dish out. It's no fun, but it's deserved.

Anyway, the EQ in MS-8 isn't a multi-tap filter (like the Audyssey), nor is it a standard parametric EQ or a graphic EQ (like Cleansweep). It's something far more bizarre. It works great, and with 8 biquads per channel can do more work than 512 taps. It doesn't EQ phase separately from frequency magnitude, but in my experience, that isn't necessary so long as you have a center channel and a matrix or some other center signal extraction method or time alignment. MS-8 has both.

One thing that's important to remember when you're setting crossovers with conventional gear is that what appears to be a gap may, in fact, not be a gap. Here's an example (but without pictures, because I'm lazy today).

Let's say you cross your subs over at 100Hz and your mids over at 200Hz. Both slopes are 12dB/octave. When the output of the subs is precisely the same level as the output of the mids, the subs are down 3dB at 100Hz and the mids are down 3dB at 200 Hz. At 150Hz, both are down 6dB. Now, adjust the input sensitivity of the sub amp, so it sounds like you have bass. Let's say you boost it by 12dB. Now, the sub is up 12dB at maybe 80Hz and below, up 9dB at 100Hz and at 0dB at 200Hz. Now where's your crossover point?

200Hz.

MS-8 avoids this problem by providing one crossover frequency setting for the sub and the midbass, adjusting the final slopes and frequency automatically using the acoustic EQ and then providing a bass shelf filter as a subwoofer level control which is applied to all the channels through the crossover. That way, the midbass and the subwoofer get the appropriateamount of boost at the right frequencies to add bass to the system while maintaining the proper crossover point so the bass doesn't become boomy and direectional. It works great and I have that process running as a VST plug-in in my car now.

We're still working on the last two software modules, but there significant progress. We'll have some samples one of these days. Sorry for the delay and continue flaming us all you want.
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Old 02-12-2009   #387
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
Let's say you cross your subs over at 100Hz and your mids over at 200Hz. Both slopes are 12dB/octave. When the output of the subs is precisely the same level as the output of the mids, the subs are down 3dB at 100Hz and the mids are down 3dB at 200 Hz. At 150Hz, both are down 6dB. Now, adjust the input sensitivity of the sub amp, so it sounds like you have bass. Let's say you boost it by 12dB. Now, the sub is up 12dB at maybe 80Hz and below, up 9dB at 100Hz and at 0dB at 200Hz. Now where's your crossover point?

200Hz.
Can you elaborate on this Andy. I can't see how the crossover point change with level. I understand that you are saying as you change levels ie increasing the level of the sub that the reduction in level due to the crossover slope will intersect the midrange HP at a higher frequency, but this doesn't change the crossover point as such does it?

I'm pretty sure that it will change the levels in the 'underlap' range relative to eachother through the transition between drivers, but it won't change the crossover point?

*EDIT* I might be interpreting 'crossover point' incorrectly. Is it more correct to talk about a HP and LP cut-off or -3dB point, which would be more accurate and that the crossover point is exactly that, the point at which the two slopes intersect? In which case a 100hz LP cannot be called a crossover, but a filter. So in fact when someone says they have a crossover set at 100hz LP and 200hz HP, the actual 'crossover point' cannot be know unless the levels are known?

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Old 02-12-2009   #388
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Can you elaborate on this Andy. I can't see how the crossover point change with level. I understand that you are saying as you change levels ie increasing the level of the sub that the reduction in level due to the crossover slope will intersect the midrange HP at a higher frequency, but this doesn't change the crossover point as such does it?

I'm pretty sure that it will change the levels in the 'underlap' range relative to eachother through the transition between drivers, but it won't change the crossover point?
The "acoustic" crossover point changes.
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Old 02-12-2009   #389
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
The "acoustic" crossover point changes.

Ding, ding ding. We have a winner. The acoustic crossover point is the only one that matters (outside power handling considerations).
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Old 02-12-2009   #390
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

As the db level of the bass signal rises, there's a up-frequency shift in the slope of the top of the bass signal, so the intersection (x-over) point with the mid signal is higher as result. Correct?

Interesting, and disheartening.. A brutha's got to have some measuring to tune.. Good ears alone can only be so good I'm starting to think.

The solution in the MS-8 sound really slick Andy.
I could even find all kinds of use for the provided internal amp.

..... sure wish I had one dadgummit!!!!
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Old 02-12-2009   #391
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy, thanks for taking the time to answer. I needed some inspiration to keep the faith!

Oh, and Andy, if you could, what are "eight biquads of filters"? I know a filter is the same word for an eq, right? But what is a biquad?
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Old 02-12-2009   #392
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Andy, thanks for taking the time to answer. I needed some inspiration to keep the faith!

Oh, and Andy, if you could, what are "eight biquads of filters"? I know a filter is the same word for an eq, right? But what is a biquad?
Let's make this easy and say a biquad is a filter that can be configured to be a high pass of just about any alignment; low pass of just about any alignment, parametric EQ of nearly any frequency, gain and Q; notch, high shelf; low shelf or phase shift. The MS-8 assigns the filter type and values (frequency, Q and gain) based on the measurements it makes and the algorithm (predefined process or set of instructions for making decisions written as code) that determines how the decision will be made. So, for the purposes of this discussion, MS-8 has 8 opportunities per channel to implement something that does part of the job of fixing the channel's response. The details of how it makes the decisions are proprietary, patented and too difficult for me to try to explain.

I'm sure someone will flame me for oversimplifying this--OK, all you DSP programmers...flame away!
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Old 02-12-2009   #393
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
Let's make this easy and say a biquad is a filter that can be configured to be a high pass of just about any alignment; low pass of just about any alignment, parametric EQ of nearly any frequency, gain and Q; notch, high shelf; low shelf or phase shift. The MS-8 assigns the filter type and values (frequency, Q and gain) based on the measurements it makes and the algorithm (predefined process or set of instructions for making decisions written as code) that determines how the decision will be made. So, for the purposes of this discussion, MS-8 has 8 opportunities per channel to implement something that does part of the job of fixing the channel's response. The details of how it makes the decisions are proprietary, patented and too difficult for me to try to explain.

I'm sure someone will flame me for oversimplifying this--OK, all you DSP programmers...flame away!
Nothing wrong with that explanation. If i was trying to explain this to someone who is not one of my academic peers, I'd use "DSP for Dummies" too

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Old 02-12-2009   #394
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

So is the process manual or automatic? I nkow I've heard that it's got manual controls but are those in addition to the automatic controls or on top of? What I mean is, do the manual controls adjust the settings done by automatic process or is it a separate set of filters?

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Old 02-12-2009   #395
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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So is the process manual or automatic? I nkow I've heard that it's got manual controls but are those in addition to the automatic controls or on top of? What I mean is, do the manual controls adjust the settings done by automatic process or is it a separate set of filters?
he had said it would be capable of 8 points along the graph for adjustment. Similar to the concept of Audyseey but it has treble and bass. Once auto-eq and t/a is ran, adjustments would be made to that automatic setting, allowing you to make personal touches to what the machine calls 'tuned'. You also have x-over controls prior to the set-up process...which is automatic. Hopefully they give us a half din controller rather than that odd one on the BMW promo but it'll do.

that about right, Andy?
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Old 02-13-2009   #396
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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So is the process manual or automatic? I nkow I've heard that it's got manual controls but are those in addition to the automatic controls or on top of? What I mean is, do the manual controls adjust the settings done by automatic process or is it a separate set of filters?
Some of it is manual and some is automatic. The user enters the crossover frequencies and assigns the channels. Then the user helps MS-8 make its measurements by placing the microphones and pressing "Go". MS-8 adjusts the EQ and, consequently, optimizes the crossovers and slopes for proper acoustic performance. Then, if you want to make adjustments, you get a 31-band EQ. The 31-band EQ is a separate set of filters that you can use to draw whatever curve you want.

Unlike most 31-band graphic EQs, the response tracks the settings precisely. What many users expect is that if they boost all the sliders by 12dB, that the response should be flat, but boosted by 12dB across the spectrum. This is almost never the case, because making the filter Qs narrow enough to do that makes the response look like a comb. Making the filters wider provides more gain than one would expect when adjacent bands are boosted. Also, adjacent band boosts and cuts are rarely executed by conventional EQs as one would expect. The math used in MS-8's 31-band EQ adjusts adjacent bands automatically so that the curve you draw is the curve you get. This is a big deal, by the way.

For those of you who have an EQ laying around, plug it into your sound card. Make it a loop-back. Generate some pink noise and look at the response as you make adjustments. You may not like what you see and it's one of the reasons that tuning with a conventional 31-band EQ and using a 31-band RTA rarely results in great sound.

The whole point of MS-8 and the point at which it differs most from every other processor that's come to market so far is that it's intended to provide a bunch of tools you can use easily to be successful in making your car sound great. It's not intended to be the tool corral at Home Depot, where almost anything is available, but it's up to you to learn how to use it. If we just took the on-chip library from the TI DSP we're using and added a GUI, this product would have been finished three years ago, but it would have been just like every other DSP EQ/Crossover. There would have been a bunch of people who can pronounce "equalizer" and who have heard the terms "Butterworth", Linkwitz-Riley" and "All-pass filter" raving about the resolution of the available adjustments, but the success rate in making cars sound great and, consequently, the sales rate for the product would have been just as dismal as every one of its predecessors.

This industry doesn't need more tool boxes, it needs more carpenters and more folks who are willing to step up to provide real solutions. Giving a guy with no arms a garden hoe and a shovel doesn't get the carrots planted.

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Old 02-13-2009   #397
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Thanks for the update Andy.

The product sounds very interesting, though I think at heart some people are control freaks and so the automated parts will scare them off. To me it sounds like you're trying to deliver the best of both worlds... a plug and play solution that a casual user can get wonderful results but also allowing for further tweaking on top of that for more advanced users.

I'm intrigued by the concepts that you've presented and looking forward to seeing them in action. Glad to hear that you've made some serious progress.
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Old 02-13-2009   #398
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I used to be one of those control freaks too and burdened the engineers with a thousand requests for a back door...until I discovered that the prototype version of MS-8 could do in a few minutes what it takes me weeks to do-and it does a better job.
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Old 02-13-2009   #399
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
I used to be one of those control freaks too and burdened the engineers with a thousand requests for a back door...until I discovered that the prototype version of MS-8 could do in a few minutes what it takes me weeks to do-and it does a better job.
It seems I read small underlying hints of large changes from the original product we read about. Place the microphones? I know, its a secret
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Old 02-13-2009   #400
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

"Placing the microphone" means putting it on your head and sitting in the driver's seat, turning your head from side to side according to the prompts, and moving to the other seats (if you want optimizations for those seats too). No change there.
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