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Old 01-19-2007   #26
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by npdang
I don't trust any software to auto-tune... as in set it and forget it. I just don't think there's anything sophisticated enough out there yet that could do a good job.

However, the nice thing it seems with the JBL unit is that rather than adjusting bands directly, you only need to change the target response and the system will do the rest... as well as the spatial averaging and other fancy stuff the dsp will calculate. Whether or not it actually works I think we will have to wait and see... but given the resources that JBL has behind them I don't see why it wouldn't. I was a tiny bit dissapointed that they didin't incorporate room correction into the unit. If anything needed it, it's definitely a car.
agreed...the processor looks very promising. room correction would have been great, although i don't know how close any manufacturer is to incorporating a solid version of it into a car audio processor. thus far, looks like alpine is first up with the audyssey multeq technology. whether it is an effective solution or not remains to be seen.
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Old 01-19-2007   #27
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Hey, I had a setup that would correct like 10 years ago. But it cost like 10 times as much and I never really was able to get the one I got to work.

Considering how many have poorly tuned systems, I would guess that this thing will do more good than harm.

Juan

2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon
Pioneer DEH-PRS80
JL Audio Stealthbox
Boston Acoustics GT-2125 X 3
Polk Audio SR6500
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Old 01-19-2007   #28
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

We tested many HUs at Tru's facility back then.
Alpine's 4V output? Eclipse's 8V output? BS. Especially with music like B-Squad said.
If Eclipse puts out 8V, then it will shut down all Arc CXL/XXK amps since they are limited to 2.5V or 4V outputs. (can't remember, but I think it's 2.5V)
Even at the shop, I measured my 9813, 7990 (f1), etc with music, at full tilt, they barely hit .5 V. Believe it or not.

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Old 01-19-2007   #29
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dual700
We tested many HUs at Tru's facility back then.
Alpine's 4V output? Eclipse's 8V output? BS. Especially with music like B-Squad said.
If Eclipse puts out 8V, then it will shut down all Arc CXL/XXK amps since they are limited to 2.5V or 4V outputs. (can't remember, but I think it's 2.5V)
Even at the shop, I measured my 9813, 7990 (f1), etc with music, at full tilt, they barely hit .5 V. Believe it or not.
True, true. Can't remember how many times I've had to bring up the XXK line as an example. They are all 2.5v max...except for the mono which is like 2.85v.

With my 8053 and BLA combo, I got a pretty consistant 2v at 80/80 with music. With 0dB tones, I did see the full 10v at 80/80. What I noticed was that the output really didn't start cranking until about the 75/80 range. To say the output is too strong and will damage electrical equipment is friggen silly.

I was just playing with my P9 the other day. 1k tone (-3dB) at about 5 clicks from full volume. Audison SRx4 bridged with gain all the way down (input sensitivity is 5.5v). Care to guess the AC voltage output on the speaker leads???















9v
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Old 01-19-2007   #30
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I'm sorry to hear that...
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Old 01-19-2007   #31
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I could be totally off base, but I've noticed different HU's giving cleaner or dirtier signals based on Quoted Preamp volt. I do believe that this is basic marketing smoke, but there are differences. Take a gander at the preamp output impedance that's what really makes the difference in sound. Compare pioneer's 100 ohm to Eclipse's 55 ohm.
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Old 01-19-2007   #32
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3sn4f2
Does anyone know if this unit will do something about OEM head units or after market ones that have volume dependent equalization or some other sound processing. Other than tell you to leave the main volume in one setting and use theres as the master volume.
It processes the input signal and basically will restore it to a flat signal. I believe the CleanSweep and 3Sixty.2 do the same as well. Therefore, that bass attentuation circuit that lowers the bass at higher volume levels in many factory heads, or any other equalization for that matter, is effectively negated.

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Old 01-19-2007   #33
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preacher
I could be totally off base, but I've noticed different HU's giving cleaner or dirtier signals based on Quoted Preamp volt. I do believe that this is basic marketing smoke, but there are differences. Take a gander at the preamp output impedance that's what really makes the difference in sound. Compare pioneer's 100 ohm to Eclipse's 55 ohm.
Totally agree. Eclipse figured it out way back with the 8061. High voltage + low output impedance + balanced output. Funny how Alpine went the other direction. Don't their units have like a 10,000 ohm output impedance or something crazy like that??
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Old 01-20-2007   #34
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirefryr
It processes the input signal and basically will restore it to a flat signal. I believe the CleanSweep and 3Sixty.2 do the same as well. Therefore, that bass attentuation circuit that lowers the bass at higher volume levels in many factory heads, or any other equalization for that matter, is effectively negated.
My original question was for someone that wants to use the factory volume instead of the MS-8 master volume. When you set these devices up they tell you to pick a volume on the OEM head unit and leave it around that point before and after you do the optimization. So that it uses that point as its reference, but then when you raise the volume on the OEM during normal use , it will alter the optimized response since the OEM response will be altered as well thanks to the volume dependent EQ curve.
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Old 01-20-2007   #35
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy answered that question over on the other thread. In short, Yes you can use the volume on the stock radio.

This unit isn't just like the JL Cleansweep or the RF 3Sixty.2.
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Old 01-20-2007   #36
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

IF it is processing the factory filtering out at one volume, it will do it at all volumes. IT was stated it can be controlled from either volume source and givien it's processing capabilities, I don't see this being a problem. If it were, it would have been stated that it MUST be controlled by the unit's programming module itself.

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Old 01-20-2007   #37
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirefryr
IF it is processing the factory filtering out at one volume, it will do it at all volumes. IT was stated it can be controlled from either volume source and givien it's processing capabilities, I don't see this being a problem. If it were, it would have been stated that it MUST be controlled by the unit's programming module itself.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/11196.pdf

In page 8 of the JL Audio Clean Sweep manual, in the section of "Using the OEM volume control instead of the clean sweep", it states you can use it like that too but there are differances in the response. I don't see how any of these processors can actively adjust according to the gain of the OEM headunit since music is dynamic and would in itself fool the processor into thinking you were raising the volume (thus changing its response) when all that might be happening was a normal peak in the music. That is why they tell you "if you are worried about these comprimises" to use the units master volume.

My question still stands if anyone that knows if they over came this somehow other than telling you to deal with it.
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Old 01-20-2007   #38
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 300Z
Andy answered that question over on the other thread. In short, Yes you can use the volume on the stock radio.

This unit isn't just like the JL Cleansweep or the RF 3Sixty.2.
300Z do you have a link to that thread, I can't find it. Thanks
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Old 01-20-2007   #39
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csfor...ad.php?t=63407
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Old 01-20-2007   #40
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Can someone ask Andy in the other forum if the ms-8s master volume will be the only way to control the main output volume when I am using the AUX input?
Thanks
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Old 01-20-2007   #41
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3sn4f2
300Z do you have a link to that thread, I can't find it. Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300Z
For anyone interested, here is the original thread.

Leo
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Old 02-20-2007   #42
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Any updates on when it will be available......
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Old 02-22-2007   #43
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I am very interested as well. Need to decide if I hold out for this proc or just go with a 3sixty for the time being.
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Old 05-25-2007   #44
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy from Harman giving more details on the MS-8 and comparing it with the PXE-H650.

From Audiogroupforum.com

"There are lots of differences. First, MS-8 is more expensive.

Some technical differences are:
1. MS-8 includes power for speakers.
2. MS-8 includes a center channel output and a matrix surround processor (Logic7), which is more about fixing the image for the passengers than about reproducing an audio equivalent to a roller-coaster ride. The Apine doesn't include a center output and doesn't include that image processing.
3. The MS-8's crossover is fully configurable. It'll support any system of 8 channels or fewer, including 7.1, 5.1, 3.1, or the standard car-audio 2-channel bi-amped or tri-amped front stage and a sub. anything is possible, since all the channels can be anything, but crossover setup is manual in MS-8. It's automatic in the Alpine, but it's less configurable. The outputs are fixed.
4. MS-8 includes an auxiliary input and a remote control and display which allows you to make some adjustments after setup and includs a volume control for those pesky OE systems that include dynamic "bass elimination" (many GM).
5. MS-8's subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels through the crossover and the bass management algorithm. It'll preserve the impact in the front of the car AND add bass.
6. The automatic equalizers are completely different. The Alpine uses a 512-tap filter, which also equalizes phase and sets time alignment. It also includes some spatial averaging for multiple microphone placements (6). When you equalize with the Alipine, the first microphone placement sets the time alignment and the rest of the placements are used to smooth the frequency response over most of the car's interior. Multitap filters that operate in real time are a relatively new possibility. In years past, multitap filters in real time were only a hope, since there weren't many microprocessors that could process all that information quickly enough. The benefits of usiing a multitap filter are that they can be very precise and they equalize phase as well as magnitude since they operate on the impulse response measurement. For one tiny point in space, they can also eliminate the sound of plenty of reflections, but their ability to do that accurately diminishes in larger listening areas, since the effects of reflections at high frequencies can be very different even a few inches away from the original microphone position. The other important thing to note about multitap filters is that the 512 "bands" are distributed in a linear fashion rather than logarithmically. That means the resolution is fixed across the audio band. 512 taps gives you roughly 40 Hz resolution. That means you get 2 adjustment bands between 20 and 100Hz and 25 bands between 10k and 20k. Multitap filters, by default place more adjustment possibilities in the high frequencies than in the low frequencies because of the linear distribution of those "bands". That's the only drawback. The Alipine allows you to select from several target curves for adjustment after the automatic setup.

One more note about multitap: They are the shiznit for headphone EQ, because the "listening space" is fixed. With multitap EQ, you can add the reflective properties of a completely different space and transform the listening area to a completely believable representation of a much larger space. With speakers, that isn't possible yet because both of your ears hear both speakers and moving your head helps you determine the location of sounds (just like when your dog cocks his head when he hears a sound he doesn't recognize--we do the same thing, it just doesn't look so ridiculous).

MS-8's EQ is different. We also use a spatial average, but we use a binaural measurement system and 3 mic positions PER LISTENING POSITION. That gives us 6 measurements per seat for each of the 8 channels plus a time alignment adjustment for each seat. Once the setup is done, you can choose an optimization for any seating position and switch between them. For frequency response EQ, we make standard frequency response measurements, eliminate the phase measurement, average the measurements), calculate the phase response of the average, turn the measurement into an impulse response measurement, apply 8 biquads (filters) to the impulse response according to the target curve and the crossover settings using a very complicated and sneaky algorithm that I can't divulge because we're applying for a patent. The result is a VERY powerful EQ that can be implemented on a relatively inexpensive DSP for each channel and leave plenty of space to use the same algorithm on the eletrical signal of the MS-8's input for flattening of the input signal. The distribution of the bands is logarithmic and makes a completely adjustable target curve easy to implement and accurate. Each speaker location is equalized separately and, because of the spatial average, the acoustic sum of the channels matches the target curve. Once setup is complete, you can fine tune the car using a 31-band drawing tool. You draw the curve you want to hear and the MS-8 implements it and allows you to audition your changes vs. no EQ and vs. the automatic implementation of the predefined target.

Both pieces of equipment are technological marvels and they both include input channel summing and signal conditioning, crossover and EQ). MS-8 includes more stuff (center channel, Logic7, amplifiers, a display and remote, equalization memory and multiple seat optimization, center channel output and automatic input configuration--MS-8 will figure out what you've connected to the input regardless of polarity), but it should. It's more expensive.

Which one sounds better? You'll have to be the judge.

One last note: Both of these products are super-important and may help to revive the industry and get new customers interested in making their cars sound great while preserving their factory user interfaces. They have both been long development processes with plenty of invention and innovation, software development hiccups and decisions about which features to implement. Both products will require some new thinking on the parts of installers and salespeople about how one implements great audio. Simple 2-channel audio isn't dead, but these kinds of advancements make better listening experiences possible using a new set of rules.

Kudos to Jason ad his team for beating us to market. The other difference is that MS-8 isn't quite finished yet-but it will be.
__________________
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Product Marketing Manager
Harman Consumer Group
Mobile Systems Division"
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Old 05-25-2007   #45
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Me - "Hi Andy. If I dont have a center channel, can I use Logic7 mode with a no center setting and does it then do something special to the prcoessing so that its like a phantom center setup, or do I have to go with stereo mode in that case and loose the other benefits of Logic7. Also is the auto EQ only for Logic7 mode or is it availiable for stereo mode too?"

Andy - "T3,
If you don't identify a channel as a center, Logic7 won't be completely engaged. There will be some ambience processing for the rear and the time alignment will be set for a single listening position. After setup, you can choose between optimizations for each of the 4 seats, but they won't all image simultaneously like they will if you use a center.

EQ is completely separate from L7. It works no matter the setup."
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Old 05-25-2007   #46
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

No room correction in the time domain? How is the spatial average done? Knowing JBL it's not a simple average hehe.

A speaker is only as good as the room you put it in.
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Old 05-25-2007   #47
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Why do I always gotta choose between multi-channel analog input and available digital input?

Don't forget to listen to music.
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Old 05-25-2007   #48
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

My Alto Processor has a 2V input limit. I agree with others when they say that most HUís rated output is BS. Out of all the HUís Iíve used (Nak, Becker, DRZ9255, Alpine, RFX8250) only one has given me problems, my Denford.

Most likely the JBL pieceís input goes straight into the A/D (TI I bet) with no analog stage at all (like the Alto). All input boost and cut is handled in the digital realm.

What one can do, if too high of an input voltage really is a problem, is use a limiting resistor. I had to do this for my Denford/Alto setup and it worked perfectly.
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Old 05-25-2007   #49
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by B-Squad View Post
But I have to agree with c0mpl3x. Now that the iPod has infected the material word, the manufacturers have a raging case of feature-itis. :barf:
x2! Gotta love all these ipods, mp3 players, etc. where lower quality media is becoming the norm......

I wonder what the the whole audiophile market will be like in 5, 10, 15 years..... I guess we'll see.....
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Old 05-25-2007   #50
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by thatvan View Post
My Alto Processor has a 2V input limit. I agree with others when they say that most HUís rated output is BS. Out of all the HUís Iíve used (Nak, Becker, DRZ9255, Alpine, RFX8250) only one has given me problems, my Denford.

Most likely the JBL pieceís input goes straight into the A/D (TI I bet) with no analog stage at all (like the Alto). All input boost and cut is handled in the digital realm.

What one can do, if too high of an input voltage really is a problem, is use a limiting resistor. I had to do this for my Denford/Alto setup and it worked perfectly.
That should not be a concern with the MS-8.....

"There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination."
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