JBL's MS-8 processor! - Page 26 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 07-30-2009   #626
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Hey, Andy... how about a group buy? I'm sure we could come up with 10 or 12 in one shot just based on the comments here.
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Old 07-30-2009   #627
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I'm in if there is a group buy.
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Old 07-30-2009   #628
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Me too. Unless the "special deal" means some kind of cool low price or free gear.
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Old 07-30-2009   #629
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

im down for a group buy

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Old 07-31-2009   #630
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
$800. But I have a special deal for you Spence.
bring your knee pads, some lube, handcuffs and some nice strong rope, then find 2 midgets and a donkey and bring them to andy's house... oh, and don't forget your $800

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Thank gawd I am a fast learner.... eventually. *sigh*
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Old 07-31-2009   #631
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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bring your knee pads, some lube, handcuffs and some nice strong rope, then find 2 midgets and a donkey and bring them to andy's house... oh, and don't forget your $800
Sassmastersq speaks from experience!

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Old 07-31-2009   #632
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

cant wait to get one of these things
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Old 07-31-2009   #633
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

So...I'm back in LA for a week of meetings and spent some time in the MS-8 lab today. Next week, we should have the first fully-integrated software build and we'll start the rest of the debugging. The various modules have been debugged separately.

It sounds great and it works great too.

Here are a few cool features that might go unnoticed:

1. The subwoofer level control is a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover instead of the usual gain control that most everyone else uses as a sub level control. The benefit is that once you get the bass sounding like it comes from the front (oh yeah, that's automatic) you can adjust the subwoofer level all you want and it never sounds boomy and never gives away its location. We were listening in the lab and we moved the subwoofer all over the place, ran the auto EQ each time and no matter the location, it always disappeared into the sound of the rest of the speakers. No amount of sub level adjustment with the shelf filter made the location any more obvious.

2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw. This is a big deal and no other car audio EQ that I know of includes this "math". If you want to see what happens with a regular EQ, hook one up to your analyzer. If you use a PC and sound card, just connect it in a loop, play some pink noise and adjust a bunch of the sliders--you'll be shocked. If you find one that does what MS-8s EQ does, I'll be shocked.

3. The UN-EQ not only flattens the response, but it also removes any channel delay present in the OE system.

I've explained these features in previous posts, but they've basically been little additions to my wish list and today I saw them all working--and working perfectly. Ahhh...like Christmas for a little kid.
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Old 07-31-2009   #634
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I would like to be a test candidate; my Bit One is giving me all sorts of problems.
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Old 07-31-2009   #635
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Well, time to start saving up.
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Old 07-31-2009   #636
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Great to hear those features... another suggestion, since you're doing software...

Make the tuning software work on an iPhone... and do two more builds to get it on a Mac and on a Windows machine.

You read it here first. No commission required...
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Old 08-01-2009   #637
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Brah, this is going to be the sh!t...
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Old 08-01-2009   #638
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I like everything I'm hearing about this thing but the wait to get it!
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Old 08-01-2009   #639
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy... CONGRATULATIONS !! Man.
"A kid at Christmas" ???
More like a father in the delivery room.
You should be passing out cigars. Haha.
Thanks for the update.

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Old 08-01-2009   #640
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3gunner View Post
Great to hear those features... another suggestion, since you're doing software...

Make the tuning software work on an iPhone... and do two more builds to get it on a Mac and on a Windows machine.

You read it here first. No commission required...
I can see having the ability to use the iPhone as a remote, but I don't see the need for the PC. The menu is simple to use and would just be replicated on the PC, possibly with a colorful GUI. Why is a PC tool an attractive option?
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Old 08-01-2009   #641
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

familiarity.... maybe

i guess the bigger screen and other programs that can run at the same time

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Old 08-01-2009   #642
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
So...I'm back in LA for a week of meetings and spent some time in the MS-8 lab today. Next week, we should have the first fully-integrated software build and we'll start the rest of the debugging. The various modules have been debugged separately.

It sounds great and it works great too.

Here are a few cool features that might go unnoticed:

1. The subwoofer level control is a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover instead of the usual gain control that most everyone else uses as a sub level control. The benefit is that once you get the bass sounding like it comes from the front (oh yeah, that's automatic) you can adjust the subwoofer level all you want and it never sounds boomy and never gives away its location. We were listening in the lab and we moved the subwoofer all over the place, ran the auto EQ each time and no matter the location, it always disappeared into the sound of the rest of the speakers. No amount of sub level adjustment with the shelf filter made the location any more obvious.
This is great. I've gone to great lengths to do this in my car which include larger drivers up front with a bit of on-the-fly increase/decrease at lower frequencies to blend with the sub as I adjust the volume and bass. Wow, then the ms-8 will very likely cut/remove my adjustments on certain tracks and certain volumes in the car. Sweet!

And in order for me to get the sub to truly "disappear" I had to apply two lowpass filters, one is 50Hz @ 24db/octive and the other is 90Hz @ 12db/octave to make the slope even more steep going into the upper bass area. The fact that you have a super-steep shelf filter that acts logically in conjunction with the satellite channels goes even further makes this product seem like it's perfect for me and my finicky listening habits.

Quote:
2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw. This is a big deal and no other car audio EQ that I know of includes this "math". If you want to see what happens with a regular EQ, hook one up to your analyzer. If you use a PC and sound card, just connect it in a loop, play some pink noise and adjust a bunch of the sliders--you'll be shocked. If you find one that does what MS-8s EQ does, I'll be shocked.
Wow. Just wow. I want one. NOW! I've been trying to make chicken salad out of chicken chit (making due with goofy workarounds to get the sound I want) in my car now for far too long.

Quote:
Ahhh...like Christmas for a little kid.
No doubt this is a gigantic step forward in DSP car audio processing and I don't think other companies are going to match it for quite some time. The developmental time and quality testing that went into the software sounds like it must have sometimes been a pain in the butt. This is going to be the center-piece in my car system and fits my listening personality big-time as I like to tinker, test, fiddle and adjust. The EQ curve presets are going to be very important to me.
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Old 08-01-2009   #643
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

If you want to use a laptop-based analyzer to check MS-8's work and to help tune the graphic EQ according to your taste, believe me, it's much simpler to have the laptop running only the analyzer. That way, you don't have to switch back and forth between windows.

The biggest difference and the one that will make MS-8 a better tool for making cars sound great is that all of that work that you're used to doing with crossovers, a bunch of EQ channels and delay settings are done automatically. The setup process is a serial process because everything is optimized once you finish the measurements. Setting crossovers is a matter of driver safety and potential output level, but you just make suggestions with the settings you input. The crossover points you choose are the ones that get implemented, but the response shapes are dictated by the combination of the EQ, which is applied before those filters, and based on an average of 6 measurements and the filter settings you choose.

All of the trial and error that IS current car tuning with conventional tools is eliminated and replaced by a process that knows the measurements and, through an algorithm (a list of instructions that aid the machine in making decisions), determines which solution set is most appropriate for fixing the acoustic problems. It WILL do a better job than any manual process at arriving the best possible optimization of the system, according to accepted science, the preset target frequency response and the requirement that the car has an image where the center is in the center of the dash, the stage is in front of the listener and the bass sounds like it comes from the front. Of course, that science doesn't take your preference into account and that's why we provide the tools that you'll need and want to make changes according to your preference.

It cannot fix a really shitty system, but it can do a better job of making even a shitty system sound better than another process. The use cases that it will support are based on reasonable and realistic system design. The minimum supported system is a simple stereo system--2-channels. A stereo system can be up to quad-amped, but the subwoofer output is a mono signal (2 output channels are available). I fyou insist on stereo bass, then you can tri-amp the stereo system. If you use rear speakers, subtract 2 channels from the channels available to do the rest. If you use a center channel, subtract one more. With MS-8, there's little benefit in separate channels for tweeters. The ease of crossover adjustability in tuning is moot--since you're not tuning and time alignment is unnecessary up there. MS-8 sets the levels and the response shapes via the EQ. We provide the ability to use separate channels for those who want that, but the addition of a center channel or rear or side speakers is a FAR better upgrade.

When we started designing this thing, I told the engineers that the auto-tune was fine, but that i wanted a back door to the target response and all of the filters because I believed my process, performed manually, would provide better results. Now, I know that was BS. It DOES provide my results because it's my process built in a little box that thinks much faster than I can and can sort through all the possible optimizations in a few seconds. It isn't a compromise.

Last edited by Andy Wehmeyer; 08-01-2009 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 08-01-2009   #644
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

TSpence,
The additional low pass filter at 90Hz that you use is a workaround for the fact that increasing the sub level increases the acoustic crossover frequency between the subs and the midbass. You've discovered this through hours of listening and tinkering. It's a one-time fix that you've implemented as a compromise. The shelf filter is also proprietary, and only available in MS-8 (although someone else could write the math to make it happen in another processor), and it boosts below 60Hz but NEVER above 160. The slope of the shelf is adjusted as the level is adjusted. It's similar in performance to your additional filter, if the filter were adjusted automatically when you adjusted the level to maintain your crossover frequency and overall response shape.
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Old 08-01-2009   #645
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Hey Andy...

Did the 2006 MS8 BMW come with the factory Logic 7 option? I want to know if (1) the MS8 can de-EQ the logic 7, and (2) whether it would help to get the logic 7 from the factory so that I have a convenient place to put my aftermarket center channel speaker.

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Old 08-01-2009   #646
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

So what's the ETA on this unit?
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Old 08-01-2009   #647
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by ISTundra View Post
So what's the ETA on this unit?
nothing official yet to the best of my knowledge. I've been following this thread periodically for some time and haven't seen any announcements of an ETA

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-01-2009   #648
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Very excited to see this come to fruition. Thanks for the update, Andy.

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Old 08-01-2009   #649
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

andy, sent you a pm


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Old 08-01-2009   #650
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

doesnt auto tune make sense?

id prefer not to have to spend hours tweaking and still have less then optimal results.

if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?

just put connections for 2 great microphones (that i can rent for 1 hour) on the ms-8 and make the software do it.

obviously the inclusion of 2 great microphones ($1000 each) would make the ms-8 too expensive for most of us, but if we can plug great mircophones into it (borrow a friends or rent), and the software can give us great results from there id prefer it to having to tweak and tweak.

(leave a little room for subwoofer gain/reduction)

<-0.02c.

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