JBL's MS-8 processor! - Page 27 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2009   #651
DIYMA 500 Club
 
michaelsil1's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,916

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 209 michaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nice


iTrader: (7)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
doesnt auto tune make sense?

id prefer not to have to spend hours tweaking and still have less then optimal results.

if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?

just put connections for 2 great microphones (that i can rent for 1 hour) on the ms-8 and make the software do it.

obviously the inclusion of 2 great microphones ($1000 each) would make the ms-8 too expensive for most of us, but if we can plug great mircophones into it (borrow a friends or rent), and the software can give us great results from there id prefer it to having to tweak and tweak.

(leave a little room for subwoofer gain/reduction)

<-0.02c.
That would be nice.
michaelsil1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-01-2009   #652
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Newbie
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 27

12V Company:
FBodyAudio
Position:
installer, fabricator

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 135 FbodyAudio will become famous soon enoughFbodyAudio will become famous soon enoughFbodyAudio will become famous soon enoughFbodyAudio will become famous soon enoughFbodyAudio will become famous soon enoughFbodyAudio will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
doesnt auto tune make sense?

id prefer not to have to spend hours tweaking and still have less then optimal results.

if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?

just put connections for 2 great microphones (that i can rent for 1 hour) on the ms-8 and make the software do it.

obviously the inclusion of 2 great microphones ($1000 each) would make the ms-8 too expensive for most of us, but if we can plug great mircophones into it (borrow a friends or rent), and the software can give us great results from there id prefer it to having to tweak and tweak.

(leave a little room for subwoofer gain/reduction)

<-0.02c.
the whole concept of the MS8 is auto tune, and it comes with dual microphones to do just that. When you adjust the 31 band eq, you are setting a target curve, not telling the ms8 how to make it's adjustments. For example, if your car or speaker setup has a natural 3 db peak at 11khz, you do not need to adjust the 31 band eq to reduce that peak. If you set the ms-8 to have a flat curve, it will automatically apply whatever filter it needs to reduce that peak and match your target curve. If you prefer your highs a little brighter overall, you simply adjust the target curve accordingly, and the ms8 will apply whatever filters it needs to make your system match that curve.

hopefully, I've explained that right, but that's my understanding of the unit from what Andy has said in the past.

mike
FbodyAudio is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #653
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 402

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 149 kkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (6)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
if i could place a microphone (or 2) precisely, and the processor can set everything up idealy (tonality, image and T.A) why would i want to tweak anything?
Because your list doesn't include "dynamic range". So when you turn it up, the you might blow out your speakers, or at least distort. This is something the processor can't test for very easily. That's why it is important to allow the user to tweak the xover freqs. It's pretty easy for a user to get the ballpark xover freqs for the volume you want to listen at.

Also the bass shelf tweak. Not all recordings are equal. Some have too much bass, others too little. Allowing the (target) bass shelf to be raised and lowered is nice.

And finally, target response curve is often a matter of personal taste. So it's nice to be able to tweak that too, if needed.

Fortunately, it looks like the MS8 does all of this.

"Music is Art. Audio is Engineering."
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
kkant is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2009   #654
DIYMA 500 Club
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,235

12V Company:
Audiofrog Inc.
Position:
President

Thanks: 0
Thanked 55 Times in 41 Posts
Rep Power: 583 Andy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

The target response is fixed. The autotune EQs to match the target. If you don't like the target, you adjust the sound using the 31-band EQ. It's not exactly done the way Mike explained it, but the end result is the same.

There's no need to plug in some high-end microphone. The reason that high end microphones still exist for measurement (and I'd be willing to bet they won't exist for much longer) is that before computerized test equipment, the accuracy was only as good as the flatness and bandwidth of the microphone. Now that analysis is done as software, the hardware isn't so much of an issue, provided the flaws are linear. The microphones that come with MS-8 are good panasonic-type electrets, which are the ones that are used in many other measurement microphones. MS-8 includes a mic correction filter, that makes them measure flat, despite their being mounted in a pair of headphones cases. Plugging in some high end mic is unnecessary and would result in poorer performance. The only advantage might be the ability to make the measurements at ridiculously high levels, but that's just not necessary.

Yes, you can tweak the crossovers if you want, but you MUST run the EQ again after making those adjustments. Fortunately, that only takes a few minutes. You'll find that there's less need to set preposterously low crossovers for midbass, midrange and tweeters with MS-8.

I'll provide an ETA when the rest of the debugging is underway and when I have a date that we're sure not to miss.

Last edited by Andy Wehmeyer; 08-01-2009 at 06:03 PM..
Andy Wehmeyer is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #655
AWC
 
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hope you guessed my name.
Posts: 2,071

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 AWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond reputeAWC has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (10)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
So...I'm back in LA for a week of meetings and spent some time in the MS-8 lab today. Next week, we should have the first fully-integrated software build and we'll start the rest of the debugging. The various modules have been debugged separately.

It sounds great and it works great too.

Here are a few cool features that might go unnoticed:

1. The subwoofer level control is a shelf filter that's applied to all the channels through the crossover instead of the usual gain control that most everyone else uses as a sub level control. The benefit is that once you get the bass sounding like it comes from the front (oh yeah, that's automatic) you can adjust the subwoofer level all you want and it never sounds boomy and never gives away its location. We were listening in the lab and we moved the subwoofer all over the place, ran the auto EQ each time and no matter the location, it always disappeared into the sound of the rest of the speakers. No amount of sub level adjustment with the shelf filter made the location any more obvious.

2. The 31-band EQ precisely tracks the curve you draw with the "sliders". With most graphic EQs, adjusting two adjacent bands in the same direction (say +6dB) will give you quite a bit more boost at a frequency in between the two sliders. If the filter Qs are narrow, you'll get two peaks at the proper amplitude, but with a hole in the middle. The EQ in MS-8 adjusts all the adjacent bands automatically to precisely match the curve you draw. This is a big deal and no other car audio EQ that I know of includes this "math". If you want to see what happens with a regular EQ, hook one up to your analyzer. If you use a PC and sound card, just connect it in a loop, play some pink noise and adjust a bunch of the sliders--you'll be shocked. If you find one that does what MS-8s EQ does, I'll be shocked.

3. The UN-EQ not only flattens the response, but it also removes any channel delay present in the OE system.

I've explained these features in previous posts, but they've basically been little additions to my wish list and today I saw them all working--and working perfectly. Ahhh...like Christmas for a little kid.


Andy, thanks alot for alot of the stuff you've taught us, really
AWC is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #656
DIYMA 500 Club
 
60ndown's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ca
Age: 55
Posts: 4,807

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 229 60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (8)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FbodyAudio View Post
the whole concept of the MS8 is auto tune, and it comes with dual microphones to do just that. When you adjust the 31 band eq, you are setting a target curve, not telling the ms8 how to make it's adjustments. For example, if your car or speaker setup has a natural 3 db peak at 11khz, you do not need to adjust the 31 band eq to reduce that peak. If you set the ms-8 to have a flat curve, it will automatically apply whatever filter it needs to reduce that peak and match your target curve. If you prefer your highs a little brighter overall, you simply adjust the target curve accordingly, and the ms8 will apply whatever filters it needs to make your system match that curve.

hopefully, I've explained that right, but that's my understanding of the unit from what Andy has said in the past.

mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
The target response is fixed. The autotune EQs to match the target. If you don't like the target, you adjust the sound using the 31-band EQ. It's not exactly done the way Mike explained it, but the end result is the same.

There's no need to plug in some high-end microphone. The reason that high end microphones still exist for measurement (and I'd be willing to bet they won't exist for much longer) is that before computerized test equipment, the accuracy was only as good as the flatness and bandwidth of the microphone. Now that analysis is done as software, the hardware isn't so much of an issue, provided the flaws are linear. The microphones that come with MS-8 are good panasonic-type electrets, which are the ones that are used in many other measurement microphones. MS-8 includes a mic correction filter, that makes them measure flat, despite their being mounted in a pair of headphones cases. Plugging in some high end mic is unnecessary and would result in poorer performance. The only advantage might be the ability to make the measurements at ridiculously high levels, but that's just not necessary.

Yes, you can tweak the crossovers if you want, but you MUST run the EQ again after making those adjustments. Fortunately, that only takes a few minutes. You'll find that there's less need to set preposterously low crossovers for midbass, midrange and tweeters with MS-8.

I'll provide an ETA when the rest of the debugging is underway and when I have a date that we're sure not to miss.
gotta admit it sounds like something i want..... could use... could enjoy.

oh ahhhhhhhhhh..... its a magic box........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
bad contacts- main source of miracles in electricity.
60ndown is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #657
DIYMA 500 Club
 
60ndown's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ca
Age: 55
Posts: 4,807

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 229 60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (8)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

i had a thought,

if this ms-8 basically processes the bejeesus out of a car system and gets all things 'right'

what would be the difference in sound using very high end drivers compared to much cheaper drivers?

if the ms-8 gets things 'right' both systems would sound the same?

right ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
bad contacts- main source of miracles in electricity.
60ndown is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #658
DIYMA 500 Club
 
michaelsil1's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,916

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 209 michaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nicemichaelsil1 is just really nice


iTrader: (7)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
i had a thought,

if this ms-8 basically processes the bejeesus out of a car system and gets all things 'right'

what would be the difference in sound using very high end drivers compared to much cheaper drivers?

if the ms-8 gets things 'right' both systems would sound the same?

right ????
Luke,


Even if it did are you going to lay out the $850.00?
michaelsil1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #659
DIYMA 500 Club
 
60ndown's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ca
Age: 55
Posts: 4,807

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 229 60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (8)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelsil1 View Post
Luke,


Even if it did are you going to lay out the $850.00?
il wait for 2 months of reviews, if its 'all that'

yes

if it can make my $100 tweeters sound like your $900 tweeters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
bad contacts- main source of miracles in electricity.
60ndown is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #660
 
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,808

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 tspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
i had a thought,

if this ms-8 basically processes the bejeesus out of a car system and gets all things 'right'

what would be the difference in sound using very high end drivers compared to much cheaper drivers?

if the ms-8 gets things 'right' both systems would sound the same?

right ????
This sound processor cannot change driver distortion response. It can correct time and frequency based distortions though from acoustic causes. So, I would think buying the speakers you like the most is still the best option. The sound I'm getting in my car now is pretty damn good considering and I have wondered if this DSP could actually end up making it worse instead of better. I'm willing to take the chance because the unit has a ton of manual adjustment options. If I don't like the auto-tune, then I end up with a very expensive high end digital equalizer. That's the worst thing I figure can happen. So, I'll go for it.
tspence73 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #661
DIYMA 500 Club
 
cubdenno's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Age: 48
Posts: 2,450

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 172 cubdenno will become famous soon enoughcubdenno will become famous soon enoughcubdenno will become famous soon enoughcubdenno will become famous soon enoughcubdenno will become famous soon enoughcubdenno will become famous soon enoughcubdenno will become famous soon enough

Send a message via ICQ to cubdenno

iTrader: (3)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Looks like I am going to start hiding money away from my wife. And like 60 says, wait for some user reviews and then jump in. I really enjoy my 701 but... There is always room for some new love!

It is very easy to conflate cause and effect that are unrelated in audio design. In fact, the entire audiophile industry is based upon this ease of fallacy.

"Heck yeah you can spend more to get the same sound."
cubdenno is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #662
Upgrade Your Membership!
Moderator
 
Diyma Ninja
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Nowhere, overthere
Posts: 11,394

Thanks: 4
Thanked 48 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 281 thehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud of


iTrader: (30)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy, please let me know when this comes out...been a big fan since Carsound.
thehatedguy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #663
DIYMA 500 Club
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,235

12V Company:
Audiofrog Inc.
Position:
President

Thanks: 0
Thanked 55 Times in 41 Posts
Rep Power: 583 Andy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Wehmeyer has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

As TSpence wrote, the EQ and the rest of the processing in MS-8 can't fix driver distortion and fixing non-linear distortion with DSP is still very uncommon in consumer devices (although many folks are working on it). Certainly, great Eq CAN make the difference between a good speaker and a great speaker much more difficult to hear, but there will always be room for great speakers--especially if they are to be driven with a lot of power. In my estimation, that's the first and best reason to replace speakers--so you can add more power. The opportuity for substantial improvement in most playback systems by replacing drivers with like drivers is coming to an end. So long as the system plays loudly enough, replacing drivers will soon be like using high-end wire...

BTW, I've done a Richard-Clark-Amp-Challenge thing with speakers in our sound room. The very small difference in the sound (similar sized woofers and tweeters, mounted on a flat baffle in the same way) once the speakers were EQed so they had the same response, wasn't easily perceived my most listeners--until we played them loudly.
Andy Wehmeyer is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #664
DIYMA 500 Club
 
AdamTaylor's Avatar
 
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Panama city Beach, FL
Age: 33
Posts: 566

12V Company:
your house, creeping up behind you
Position:
Installer/ Sales

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 143 AdamTaylor will become famous soon enoughAdamTaylor will become famous soon enoughAdamTaylor will become famous soon enoughAdamTaylor will become famous soon enoughAdamTaylor will become famous soon enoughAdamTaylor will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (2)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

andy, do you by any chance need a kidney cause im about ready to give one up to get my hands on this

06 350Z MT: Premier F90BT, MS-8 H.A.T. L1-R2, L4-LE & L6-SE, 2x IDMAX 10, ImageDynamics 2x Q1200.1, 2x Q450.4, Tsunami 1/0AWG, Kinetik HC2000
350Z Build
AdamTaylor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #665
DIYMA 500 Club
 
60ndown's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ca
Age: 55
Posts: 4,807

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 229 60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (8)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
As TSpence wrote, the EQ and the rest of the processing in MS-8 can't fix driver distortion and fixing non-linear distortion with DSP is still very uncommon in consumer devices (although many folks are working on it). Certainly, great Eq CAN make the difference between a good speaker and a great speaker much more difficult to hear, but there will always be room for great speakers--especially if they are to be driven with a lot of power. In my estimation, that's the first and best reason to replace speakers--so you can add more power. The opportuity for substantial improvement in most playback systems by replacing drivers with like drivers is coming to an end. So long as the system plays loudly enough, replacing drivers will soon be like using high-end wire...

BTW, I've done a Richard-Clark-Amp-Challenge thing with speakers in our sound room. The very small difference in the sound (similar sized woofers and tweeters, mounted on a flat baffle in the same way) once the speakers were EQed so they had the same response, wasn't easily perceived by most listeners--until we played them loudly.
@ 70mph (which is where i do most of my listening) im sure thats reason enough for me not to have to buy $5000 of esoteric drivers.......ever,

as long as my $300 (used) drivers can handle 100wrms and my ride is reasonably quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
bad contacts- main source of miracles in electricity.
60ndown is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-01-2009   #666
DIYMA 500 Club
 
donkeypunch22's Avatar
 
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 287

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 138 donkeypunch22 will become famous soon enoughdonkeypunch22 will become famous soon enoughdonkeypunch22 will become famous soon enoughdonkeypunch22 will become famous soon enoughdonkeypunch22 will become famous soon enoughdonkeypunch22 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (3)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamTaylor View Post
andy, do you by any chance need a kidney cause im about ready to give one up to get my hands on this
Dude, I think an early release unit will cost more than a kidney. I mean Sassmastersq says he apparently did all kinds of crazy things with midgets and animals and paid $800, but still does not have a unit.

ps - Sassmastersq may never get one, cause he's cool like that
donkeypunch22 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #667
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 402

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 149 kkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (6)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
@ 70mph (which is where i do most of my listening) im sure thats reason enough for me not to have to buy $5000 of esoteric drivers.......ever,

as long as my $300 (used) drivers can handle 100wrms and my ride is reasonably quiet.
I think exactly the opposite. At 70MPH, road noise is the reason to get better (i.e. more linear higher displacement) drivers--so you can turn it up. Unless you car is quieter than a lexus LS, then maybe it doesn't matter. Even the LS noise floor is 60-65 db at cruise, which really chops down your dynamic range.

That doesn't mean $5000 drivers. Good list of drivers here, along with linearity measurements and comparisons:
Zaph|Audio

From the perspective of the MS8, you'd want to weight nonlinear distortion performance much higher than frequency response. Since the MS8 corrects for the latter.

"Music is Art. Audio is Engineering."
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
kkant is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #668
DIYMA 500 Club
 
SSSnake's Avatar
 
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Huntsville
Posts: 1,486

Thanks: 8
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 170 SSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enoughSSSnake will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (2)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Seriously, group buy!

I have the cash that I was going to spend on a "carputer" but with autotune the MS-8 wins.

Again, GROUP BUY
SSSnake is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #669
DIYMA 500 Club
 
60ndown's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ca
Age: 55
Posts: 4,807

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 229 60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (8)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkant View Post
I think exactly the opposite. At 70MPH, road noise is the reason to get better (i.e. more linear higher displacement) drivers--so you can turn it up. Unless you car is quieter than a lexus LS, then maybe it doesn't matter. Even the LS noise floor is 60-65 db at cruise, which really chops down your dynamic range.

That doesn't mean $5000 drivers. Good list of drivers here, along with linearity measurements and comparisons:
Zaph|Audio

From the perspective of the MS8, you'd want to weight nonlinear distortion performance much higher than frequency response. Since the MS8 corrects for the latter.
my understanding is more expensive drivers reveal subtle differences, and subtlety can be enjoyed in a quiet room, but as you said, in a moving vehicle with 70db noise floor, that subtlety is impossible to hear.

lots of good drivers at zaph for $100.

some measure better then $200 drivers.



additional cost reveals additional subtlety, not necessarily additional volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
bad contacts- main source of miracles in electricity.
60ndown is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #670
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Age: 43
Posts: 8,524

Thanks: 107
Thanked 39 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 254 t3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to allt3sn4f2 is a name known to all


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkant View Post
I think exactly the opposite. At 70MPH, road noise is the reason to get better (i.e. more linear higher displacement) drivers--so you can turn it up. Unless you car is quieter than a lexus LS, then maybe it doesn't matter. Even the LS noise floor is 60-65 db at cruise, which really chops down your dynamic range.

That doesn't mean $5000 drivers. Good list of drivers here, along with linearity measurements and comparisons:
Zaph|Audio

From the perspective of the MS8, you'd want to weight nonlinear distortion performance much higher than frequency response. Since the MS8 corrects for the latter.
Could be, but then again the noise at that speed could still make the lower distortion from the more linear driver hard to appreciate since it would happen on quick dynamics only. Then on the average continuous level, the distortion difference between the decent and good driver might still be below the perceivable % and be even harder to hear because of the road noise.
t3sn4f2 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #671
 
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,808

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 tspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
Could be, but then again the noise at that speed could still make the lower distortion from the more linear driver hard to appreciate since it would happen on quick dynamics only. Then on the average continuous level, the distortion difference between the decent and good driver might still be below the perceivable % and be even harder to hear because of the road noise.
This makes a good argument for why acoustic projects are going to help a great deal. I'm in the early stages of my acoustic projects. I'm going to do the triple layer approach of CLD/CCF/MLV (metal dampner/foam decoupling layer/heavy vinyl sound blocker) throughout the interior of the car. Then at some point buy security film for the windows to lower the noise a further 3-4db thru the windows. Then do engine compartment noise treatments. Then finally buy the quietest tires I can. With this overall combo I'm hoping to take the noise down as much as 15db - 20db at freeway speeds. That's the goal. A minimum realistic noise reduction is like 6db - 8db but that would mean I wasted money. I want the freeway noise db in the 70db range and normal driving noise in the 60db range. That's the target. I will be using my SPL meter along the way to track the noise reduction. However, I wish I could have an RTA to measure the noise based on frequency as well.

I figure if I could show the results of my project in some kind of scientific way, then that could benefit people to know how much money to invest in acoustic treatments and where the diminishing returns are at each phase. My hope is that I don't end up wasting any money and each phase really makes a measurable difference. I've studied up on acoustic treatments and have come up with as many ideas as I could to take mobile acoustic noise reduction as far as it can go. If anyone knows a super cheap or free RTA with mic I could use, let me know.

Also, Andy. I know that there is noise cancelling headphones technology. Is there anyway that technology can be applied through a device like the MS-8 to cancel out road noise in a car (provided that some minimal noise reduction material has been installed)? It just occurred to me that this might be a car application technology. See, tspence may be silly and dumb sometimes but is full of imagination to associate different things. I'm thinking if a car's cabin can be isolated enough like headphones, this technology could probably work to quiet a car even more.

Last edited by tspence73; 08-02-2009 at 09:24 AM..
tspence73 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #672
DIYMA 500 Club
 
60ndown's Avatar
 
Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ca
Age: 55
Posts: 4,807

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 229 60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute60ndown has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (8)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tspence73 View Post
This makes a good argument for why acoustic projects are going to help a great deal. I'm in the early stages of my acoustic projects. I'm going to do the triple layer approach of CLD/CCF/MLV (metal dampner/foam decoupling layer/heavy vinyl sound blocker) throughout the interior of the car. Then at some point buy security film for the windows to lower the noise a further 3-4db thru the windows. Then do engine compartment noise treatments. Then finally buy the quietest tires I can. With this overall combo I'm hoping to take the noise down as much as 15db - 20db at freeway speeds. That's the goal. A minimum realistic noise reduction is like 6db - 8db but that would mean I wasted money. I want the freeway noise db in the 70db range and normal driving noise in the 60db range. That's the target. I will be using my SPL meter along the way to track the noise reduction. However, I wish I could have an RTA to measure the noise based on frequency as well.

I figure if I could show the results of my project in some kind of scientific way, then that could benefit people to know how much money to invest in acoustic treatments and where the diminishing returns are at each phase. My hope is that I don't end up wasting any money and each phase really makes a measurable difference. I've studied up on acoustic treatments and have come up with as many ideas as I could to take mobile acoustic noise reduction as far as it can go. If anyone knows a super cheap or free RTA with mic I could use, let me know.

Also, Andy. I know that there is noise cancelling headphones technology. Is there anyway that technology can be applied through a device like the MS-8 to cancel out road noise in a car (provided that some minimal noise reduction material has been installed)? It just occurred to me that this might be a car application technology. See, tspence may be silly and dumb sometimes but is full of imagination to associate different things. I'm thinking if a car's cabin can be isolated enough like headphones, this technology could probably work to quiet a car even more.
deadening a car is a lot of work, id seriously consider buying a different vehicle that was already quiet to drive (some cars come off the production line very quiet), over doing all the deadening work (materials + labour = $$) on a vehicle that is noisy.(2 similar cars used for $3500 could be significantly different (30 db?) as far as road noise.

my $2300 1992 toyota previa is one of the quietest vehicles ive ever been in, and at 70 mph, because of the front shape of the vehicle, there is zero wind noise.motor is underneath the vehicle and there is thick carpet etc throughout the cabin.very very quiet


cheap spl meter.

Digital-Display Sound-Level Meter - RadioShack.com

measure @ 70 mph before and after.

x2 on noise canceling q.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
bad contacts- main source of miracles in electricity.

Last edited by 60ndown; 08-02-2009 at 09:44 AM..
60ndown is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #673
 
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,808

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 tspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enoughtspence73 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Aha!

Bummer. Tspence thought he came up with something himself again, but alas, it has already been thought of: Toyota's noise cancelling car technology.
tspence73 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #674
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 402

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 149 kkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (6)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 60ndown View Post
my understanding is more expensive drivers reveal subtle differences, and subtlety can be enjoyed in a quiet room, but as you said, in a moving vehicle with 70db noise floor, that subtlety is impossible to hear.

lots of good drivers at zaph for $100.

some measure better then $200 drivers.



additional cost reveals additional subtlety, not necessarily additional volume.
Not really. Subtlety is one of those artsy words that applies to music, but not to audio. What do you really mean by subtlety, and why would you expect that you can't hear it in a car? Are you talking about quiet passages or small signals in the background of a louder passage? If so, additional volume helps bring out the subtlety, as long as it's not distorted.

As far as what additional cost gives you, the answer is usually "snake oil". This is the audio industry, after all. Wooden volume knobs, green CD highlighters, etc. But if you shop right, additional cost gets you motors with more linearity and higher excursion. More volume with less distortion. Which is what you want in a car going 70. Additional cost can also get you smoother and more extended response, but these characteristics will presumably be less important if you get the MS8. Once it comes out.

"Music is Art. Audio is Engineering."
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
kkant is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2009   #675
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 402

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 149 kkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enoughkkant will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (6)



Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
Could be, but then again the noise at that speed could still make the lower distortion from the more linear driver hard to appreciate since it would happen on quick dynamics only. Then on the average continuous level, the distortion difference between the decent and good driver might still be below the perceivable % and be even harder to hear because of the road noise.
You could be right. But it depends on the music, I think. There is a lot of music where you are pushing linearity for more extended periods of time.

"Music is Art. Audio is Engineering."
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
kkant is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
kill it with fire

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PPI DCX-730 Digital Signal Processor crash813 Member Reviews & Product Comparisons 432 12-10-2017 08:17 PM
Processor Power PPI DCX 730 vs Alpine PXA H701 ... netken Technical & Advanced Car Audio Discussion 8 01-24-2011 11:07 PM
Processor selection Sr SQ Technical & Advanced Car Audio Discussion 13 01-04-2007 02:51 PM
stand alown processor of time alignment KingSVT Technical & Advanced Car Audio Discussion 9 10-19-2006 09:04 AM
My MaxxBass 103 Processor Impressions blackreplica Technical & Advanced Car Audio Discussion 17 09-29-2005 07:14 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Ad Management by RedTyger

Home | User CP | Members List | New Posts | ITrader | Faq | Post Spy