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Old 08-20-2009   #776
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

thats funny, we up here in canada have the same problem with tech support in the states where they still think canada is "somewhere up north" and we still live in snow huts.. to funny!
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Old 08-20-2009   #777
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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thats funny, we up here in canada have the same problem with tech support in the states where they still think canada is "somewhere up north" and we still live in snow huts.. to funny!

You dont?
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Old 08-20-2009   #778
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

so I have a question that's actually related to the MS8 processor.

It was suggested somewhere earlier on in the thread that the individual drivers that are selected for the system will not matter very much as long as it gets loud enough for the listener's personal tastes.

My question is twofold:

can tonal accuracy be entirely controlled by EQ? I know many people talk about speakers being "warm" or "harsh" and myriad other clever descriptions for sound... can all of this be manipulated by EQ? If so, can the ms8 actually make a low end jensen sound like a high end focal in terms of timbre/tone?

part two: what about the level of detail a speaker provides? I know, for example, that the focal set I have is noticeably more detailed than the JL audio ZR set i was using before. I can hear sounds that simply were not reproduced effectively with the JL set. Chimes and bells shimmer with such startling accuracy, and the plucking of a guitar string sounds so much more natural and vibrant.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #779
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
can tonal accuracy be entirely controlled by EQ? I know many people talk about speakers being "warm" or "harsh" and myriad other clever descriptions for sound... can all of this be manipulated by EQ? If so, can the ms8 actually make a low end jensen sound like a high end focal in terms of timbre/tone?
Provided the volume is low enough, yes on the EQ. Haven't heard the MS8 yet, but I suspect the answer is yes for that as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
part two: what about the level of detail a speaker provides? I know, for example, that the focal set I have is noticeably more detailed than the JL audio ZR set i was using before. I can hear sounds that simply were not reproduced effectively with the JL set. Chimes and bells shimmer with such startling accuracy, and the plucking of a guitar string sounds so much more natural and vibrant.
What we call detail is a combination of several fundamentals, like noise floor and frequency response. Frequency response can vary greatly depending on the speakers themselves, the crossovers, and speaker positioning. EQ (including the MS8) can adjust the response, but not the noise. There are two ways to deal with the noise floor: sound deadening and increased dynamic range. Increased dynamic range means better speakers.

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Old 08-20-2009   #780
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
Provided the volume is low enough, yes on the EQ. Haven't heard the MS8 yet, but I suspect the answer is yes for that as well.

What we call detail is a combination of several fundamentals, like noise floor and frequency response. Frequency response can vary greatly depending on the speakers themselves, the crossovers, and speaker positioning. EQ (including the MS8) can adjust the response, but not the noise. There are two ways to deal with the noise floor: sound deadening and increased dynamic range. Increased dynamic range means better speakers.
that's basically what i was asking.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #781
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
Provided the volume is low enough, yes on the EQ. Haven't heard the MS8 yet, but I suspect the answer is yes for that as well.

What we call detail is a combination of several fundamentals, like noise floor and frequency response. Frequency response can vary greatly depending on the speakers themselves, the crossovers, and speaker positioning. EQ (including the MS8) can adjust the response, but not the noise. There are two ways to deal with the noise floor: sound deadening and increased dynamic range. Increased dynamic range means better speakers.
Yup. These are the right answers, for the most part.

If the bad sound from cheap speakers is the result of non-linear distortion, EQ can't fix that--well, it can, but there aren't yet any car audio processors that include this capability
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Old 08-20-2009   #782
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
Yup. These are the right answers, for the most part.

If the bad sound from cheap speakers is the result of non-linear distortion, EQ can't fix that--well, it can, but there aren't yet any car audio processors that include this capability
thanks

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #783
 
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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You dont?

No we live in igloos you dumb ass . They aren't huts, they are an advanced self supporting structures that you can huff and puff but can't blow down. Huts on the other hand....
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Old 08-20-2009   #784
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
that's basically what i was asking.
Keep in mind also that, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, a "better" speaker does not necessarily mean more expensive or more famous. There are many instances of better (more linear) speakers being cheaper.

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Old 08-20-2009   #785
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Keep in mind also that, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, a "better" speaker does not necessarily mean more expensive or more famous. There are many instances of better (more linear) speakers being cheaper.

"better" can mean lots of things. it can mean the ability to play louder, due to either high sensitivity, higher power handling due to sturdy construction and high quality parts; or it can mean linear output, or even the aesthetic qualities of the speaker if we're including very high end stuff.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #786
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
it can mean the ability to play louder, due to either high sensitivity
Not very relevant. Only matters if power is limited. In car audio we are blessed with a profusion of inexpensive and powerful amps. If you're buying Focal speakers, amplification shouldn't be a problem.

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higher power handling due to sturdy construction and high quality parts; or it can mean linear output
All this falls under the umbrella of linearity. The relevant characteristic is total linearity after all thermal and mechanical effects are taken into account. IOW, measured linearity. To me, linearity and linear output amount to much the same thing. All speakers are linear enough at low enough volumes. And in any given size, most speakers can put out about the same volume as long as you're willing to distort the weaker ones.

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
or even the aesthetic qualities of the speaker if we're including very high end stuff.
True...if that is important to you.

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Old 08-20-2009   #787
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Well...my speakers are mounted behind grilles and no one can see them--so the cosmetics don't much matter. However, once this MS-8 is finished, I'm mounting it to a neon-lit, rhinestone laden, rotatong platform 30 feet above the roof of my car so everyone can see that it's real, that it's finally finished and it's what makes the car sound great.
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Old 08-20-2009   #788
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I like the sound of "rotatong"... it reminds me of strippers.
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Old 08-20-2009   #789
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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No we live in igloos you dumb ass . They aren't huts, they are an advanced self supporting structures that you can huff and puff but can't blow down. Huts on the other hand....
LOL, you learn something new everyday.

I am sure people think us floridians all live on the beach in pomfron shacks. lol
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Old 08-20-2009   #790
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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LOL, you learn something new everyday.

I am sure people think us floridians all live on the beach in pomfron shacks. lol
Well...I'm sure the insurance companies would like that. Those would be easier to rebuild EVERY year when the big bad wolf--i mean hurricane--comes and blows them down.
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Old 08-20-2009   #791
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
Not very relevant. Only matters if power is limited. In car audio we are blessed with a profusion of inexpensive and powerful amps. If you're buying Focal speakers, amplification shouldn't be a problem.
false. a speaker with higher sensitivity will play louder with the same amount of power, all else considered equal.
Quote:
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All this falls under the umbrella of linearity. The relevant characteristic is total linearity after all thermal and mechanical effects are taken into account. IOW, measured linearity.
so what you're saying is that if we discard thermal and mechanical constraints.... oh wait that's that defeats the entire purpose.
I might as well say that I can play basketball as well as Michael Jordan, but only if I were as tall as he was and possessed the same talent.

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
To me, linearity and linear output amount to much the same thing. All speakers are linear enough at low enough volumes. And in any given size, most speakers can put out about the same volume as long as you're willing to distort the weaker ones.True...if that is important to you.
false. you've obviously never blown a speaker, torn a spider, or ripped a surround. higher quality parts and sturdy construction absolutely allow certain speakers to play louder than others

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #792
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I don't really know what point you're trying to make, but it seems obvious that you've flown right over the point itself.

You've included some facts, and it appears you have a grasp of loudspeaker mechanics, but you've used a shoddy inductive argument and reached some inaccurate conclusions.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #793
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
false. a speaker with higher sensitivity will play louder with the same amount of power, all else considered equal.
All else is not equal, so once again, this is irrelevant. As long as you can afford the amps, and it would appear that you can.

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
so what you're saying is that if we discard thermal and mechanical constraints.... oh wait that's that defeats the entire purpose.
I might as well say that I can play basketball as well as Michael Jordan, but only if I were as tall as he was and possessed the same talent.
Ypu completely misread me. Read again.

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
false. you've obviously never blown a speaker, torn a spider, or ripped a surround. higher quality parts and sturdy construction absolutely allow certain speakers to play louder than others
I've blown many speakers, young grasshopper. That was usually my fault, not the speakers. There is something to be said for build quality, but In general if you get a well designed linear driver, build quality is just fine.

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Old 08-20-2009   #794
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
All else is not equal, so once again, this is irrelevant. As long as you can afford the amps, and it would appear that you can.

Ypu completely misread me. Read again.

I've blown many speakers, young grasshopper. That was usually my fault, not the speakers. There is something to be said for build quality, but In general if you get a well designed linear driver, build quality is just fine.
I did indeed misunderstand the second part. However, I still intensely disagree with your first and last statements.

Sensitivity is quite important to me. If one seeks a very high level of output, sensitivity is of the utmost importance, as is the thermal and mechanical power handling, which are direct results of the design, the quality of construction, and materials used.

If I want 130db and higher on my front stage alone, I'll need alot of amplification (I've got 1200wrms on tap so obviously amplification is not an issue...) but the speakers must be able to handle all that power. The speakers also need to be sensitive.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #795
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
If I want 130db and higher on my front stage alone, I'll need alot of amplification (I've got 1200wrms on tap so obviously amplification is not an issue...) but the speakers must be able to handle all that power. The speakers also need to be sensitive.
At 130 db with 1200W of power, sensitivity does not matter even a little bit. Put that notion out of your mind. Sensitivity only matters if you have a very small amp , and you want to maximize the volume from it.

As you correctly pointed out, build quality can be a concern. My point is if you choose a driver which measures linear at the volumes you want, you generally don't have to sweat build quality. Lack of thermal and mechanical powerhandling shows up as nonlinearity before it shows up as a blown speaker. Plus drivers which are so linear tend to have high build quality anyway.

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Old 08-20-2009   #796
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
At 130 db with 1200W of power, sensitivity does not matter even a little bit. Put that notion out of your mind. Sensitivity only matters if you have a very small amp , and you want to maximize the volume from it.

As you correctly pointed out, build quality can be a concern. My point is if you choose a driver which measures linear at the volumes you want, you generally don't have to sweat build quality. Lack of thermal and mechanical powerhandling shows up as nonlinearity before it shows up as a blown speaker. Plus drivers which are so linear tend to have high build quality anyway.
I have a tangential question:

I've addressed this before, but I feel that the response didn't cover it 100% and I want to be thoroughly sure. Why can I hear things on one speaker that I can not hear on another? For example: I can hear distinct individuation between every single strike of a hammer on a xylephone on one set of speakers, but on another they seem to blend. Same goes for hearing each individual guitar string when the musician strums the guitar, rather than simply hearing the chord as a whole.

edit: also, I'd like to stress once again that sensitivity matters - even at high power levels. a more efficient speaker will have higher output with the same amount of power.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!

Last edited by Wheres The Butta; 08-20-2009 at 02:53 PM..
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Old 08-20-2009   #797
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

I'm not sure if you've read any of my other posts, but just so you know.... I like my music as loud as it can possibly get without distortion. So to me, things like thermal / mechanical power handling and sensitivity are very important. I really do run my system to the ragged edge.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 08-20-2009   #798
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
I've addressed this before, but I feel that the response didn't cover it 100% and I want to be thoroughly sure. Why can I hear things on one speaker that I can not hear on another? For example: I can hear distinct individuation between every single strike of a hammer on a xylephone on one set of speakers, but on another they seem to blend. Same goes for hearing each individual guitar string when the musician strums the guitar, rather than simply hearing the chord as a whole.
These are differences in frequency response, which can be caused by many things. Speakers, crossover, install, placement, and tuning.

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edit: also, I'd like to stress once again that sensitivity matters - even at high power levels. a more efficient speaker will have higher output with the same amount of power.
Your limits at high power are thermal and mechanical. The things that make a speaker more sensitive at low power levels (eg low moving mass) are not necessarily the things that make it capable of handling large thermal loads linearly with the same power efficiency. IOW, you can't multiply your 1W sensitivity by log(power) and expect to know how loud a speaker will get at high power levels. So, sensitivity doesn't matter. Go for high measured linearity at high power, and you will be good. I like it loud too, so we are on the same page.

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Old 08-20-2009   #799
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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These are differences in frequency response, which can be caused by many things. Speakers, crossover, install, placement, and tuning.

Your limits at high power are thermal and mechanical. The things that make a speaker more sensitive at low power levels (eg low moving mass) are not necessarily the things that make it capable of handling large thermal loads linearly with the same power efficiency. IOW, you can't multiply your 1W sensitivity by log(power) and expect to know how loud a speaker will get at high power levels. So, sensitivity doesn't matter. Go for high measured linearity at high power, and you will be good. I like it loud too, so we are on the same page.
I'm confused then. I know that thermal/mechanical factors allow a speaker to take more power and thus get louder. I know this is seperate from sensitivity.

What I'm saying is that two speakers A and B have sensitivity of 97 and 100 respectively. Speaker B will be more efficient with the same power, and thus be louder. I'm not saying that speaker B can handle more power, I'm simply saying that given the exact same power, it should theoretically be louder. That is the explanation that I've gotten from any definition of sensitivity I've read.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
What I'm saying is that two speakers A and B have sensitivity of 97 and 100 respectively. Speaker B will be more efficient with the same power, and thus be louder. I'm not saying that speaker B can handle more power, I'm simply saying that given the exact same power, it should theoretically be louder. That is the explanation that I've gotten from any definition of sensitivity I've read.
This is correct, for low power usage. If you are running your speakers off your HU for example, B will be louder and in general all else equal for that purpose B would be better. But you can't scale the theoretical sensitivity to high power, and assume the efficiency stays the same (or even assume that the efficiency decreases at the same rate for both speakers). That is why the 1W sensitivity doesn't matter.

For high power car audio, the 1W sensitivity is pretty much meaningless. And with the MS8 coming out, soon presumably, you don't have to worry too much about frequency response either. What matters most is linearity with excursion.

There is one place the freq response does matter, indirectly: out-of-band breakup nodes. These peaks occur outside the range you are using the speaker, but can be excited by non-linear distortion in the passband. This is something that current EQ's (including the MS8 I think) can't correct for. So, you want to either get a driver that has small peaks, or ensure that you exclude those nonlinearities from the passband, or if the passband must include those particular nonlinearities, make sure they are small.

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