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Old 09-14-2009   #876
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
BTW, there's no sense in comparing the BitOne and the MS-8. BitOne is available and MS-8 isn't yet. BitOne is manual and MS-8 will be automatic. This isn't about processing power--to the point made by whomever keeps suggesting a car PC--it's about the algorithm and/or the tools.
Yeah, I know. And the BitOne has neither. A CarPC doesn't have the algorithm, but at least it has (some of) the tools. We're not comparing the BitOne to the MS8. Indeed that was my point from the start--the BitOne is no replacement for an MS8. There currently isn't anything that is a replacement for an MS8, unless you count the Alpine Imprint stuff (which sucks). But one can do better than a BitOne.

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Old 09-14-2009   #877
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

^^^^So, what exactly do you use?^^^^

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Old 09-14-2009   #878
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

My most recent processor was the Rane RPM. Used it for about 4-5 years through several systems. I took my last system out of my old truck when I got a new car a couple months ago. Now I'm waiting for the MS-8 before I install the next system.

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Old 09-14-2009   #879
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

^^^good deal.

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Old 09-14-2009   #880
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
Yeah, I know. And the BitOne has neither. A CarPC doesn't have the algorithm, but at least it has (some of) the tools. We're not comparing the BitOne to the MS8. Indeed that was my point from the start--the BitOne is no replacement for an MS8. There currently isn't anything that is a replacement for an MS8, unless you count the Alpine Imprint stuff (which sucks). But one can do better than a BitOne.
NO ONE has said the B1 was an MS-8 replacement. Even if the MS-8 WAS available they're two totally different things. You made the commment that people were "settling" for the B1, which is silly at best. You keep saying you can do better than a B1 but haven't provided a single example that does.

You use a Rane which does some things a B1 doesn't, but is has 2 less channels, needs to thave the power supply swapped out, and is HUGE.

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Old 09-14-2009   #881
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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You made the commment that people were "settling" for the B1, which is silly at best. You keep saying you can do better than a B1 but haven't provided a single example that does.
Reread the thread.

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You use a Rane which does some things a B1 doesn't, but is has 2 less channels, needs to thave the power supply swapped out, and is HUGE.
True. None of which matters for SQ. Except for the extra two channels, which can easily be substituted with a 2-way active xover, which is not exactly hard to find. After all the work we put into our systems, why settle for a processor that won't sound as good as a factory Mark Levinson system in a Lexus? Or if you don't want the hassle of the Rane, get the Zapcos. Or wait for the MS-8.

And, BTW, people are talking about this BitOne as if it is a replacement. "I got tired of waiting for the MS8, so I got a BitOne." The subtext here seems to be "It's just another processor right? Cleansweep, 360, MS-8, BitOne, whatever". There has been at least one poster who thought that the MS-8 is basically like BitOne except with an autotune to make it easy. Clearly that is not correct.

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Old 09-15-2009   #882
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by kkant View Post
Reread the thread.
I don't need to. Processors designed for home and pro use are not replacements for pieces that are designed for car use. The average joe can't go buy a carputer or Rane and even get it to work.

Quote:
True. None of which matters for SQ. Except for the extra two channels, which can easily be substituted with a 2-way active xover, which is not exactly hard to find.
But it's more boxes to install which increases noise and decreases SQ.

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After all the work we put into our systems, why settle for a processor that won't sound as good as a factory Mark Levinson system in a Lexus?
And you're basing that one what exactly? I've hear B1 systems that SPANK the ML system.

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Or if you don't want the hassle of the Rane, get the Zapcos.
Again, more boxes.

Quote:
Or wait for the MS-8.
You mean more than the extra 3 years we've BEEN waiting? I want to put it in my car, not my wheelchair...

Quote:
And, BTW, people are talking about this BitOne as if it is a replacement. "I got tired of waiting for the MS8, so I got a BitOne." The subtext here seems to be "It's just another processor right? Cleansweep, 360, MS-8, BitOne, whatever". There has been at least one poster who thought that the MS-8 is basically like BitOne except with an autotune to make it easy. Clearly that is not correct.
I agree, that person was unclear on the differences.

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Old 09-15-2009   #883
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
I don't need to. Processors designed for home and pro use are not replacements for pieces that are designed for car use. The average joe can't go buy a carputer or Rane and even get it to work.
Average Joe is uneducated and buys whatever crap the salesman tells him to buy. Who cares what he can or can't do. With a little knowledge you can use something else and have at least some chance of getting good SQ.

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But it's more boxes to install which increases noise and decreases SQ.
No it doesn't, if you build it right.

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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
And you're basing that one what exactly? I've hear B1 systems that SPANK the ML system.
Louder, yes. Better SQ at low volume? I doubt it. The ear often mistakes a little extra loudness for better sound, even when it's not. Listen a little longer and with more music and you'll hear the crappiness. I've heard many systems processed with 31-band EQ's (though I have not heard the BitOne--but there's no reason to think it is better than any other GEQ). Almost all have severe SQ problems that I can bring out with my test music samples. These are problems that can't be corrected with a blunt non-adjustable tool like a GEQ.

To listen for good SQ, it is important to have a reference. What is your reference? I use a pair of good IEMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
You mean more than the extra 3 years we've BEEN waiting? I want to put it in my car, not my wheelchair...
Fair enough. But for me...I've tried just about everything else, and I know how much SQ I can get today. And I know how long it takes to tune a car manually to make it sound good. Given the evidence we've seen with the MS-8, I'm willing to wait.

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Old 09-19-2009   #884
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Well I met with Andy last week and received a tour of the facility, a demo of his ride, and a prototype ms-8 to try out. Thanks Andy. I'll let everybody know how it does in my truck.


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Old 09-19-2009   #885
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Well I met with Andy last week and received a tour of the facility, a demo of his ride, and a prototype ms-8 to try out. Thanks Andy. I'll let everybody know how it does in my truck.
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Old 09-19-2009   #886
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Old 09-19-2009   #887
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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Well I met with Andy last week and received a tour of the facility, a demo of his ride, and a prototype ms-8 to try out. Thanks Andy. I'll let everybody know how it does in my truck.
Lucky bastard.

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Old 09-19-2009   #888
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

are you allowed to post any pics?

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Old 09-19-2009   #889
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

let me stop before this gets out of hand. Andy did NOT give me a unit, but let me explain my visit with him: Drove down to JBL and had lunch at a local mexican restaurant with Andy. we drove back to the plant, and I got to demo Andy's car for about 20 minutes. The car looks completely stock, and except for the tweeters in the sail panels, all speakers are in factory locations. The imaging was dead center with beyond the car ambience. the tonality was spot on and on one blues track, the guitar was literally 3 feet beyond the windshield and 2 fee past the left pillar. So most of us know that the car is great because in every competiton he puts the spank of most in his class. How easy is it to set up? glad you asked. as we were walking into the facility to check out the "silent chamber" 2 guys were heading out with an ms-8 to do some final hardware / software testing. They asked if I wanted to set it up in the vehicle. I of course said yes. This was a truck with 6 1/2" speakers front and rear and a 10" sub. I sat in the PASSENGER seat and proceeded to go thru the start-up menu from the beginning. crossover settings, what type of speakers, level setting from the deck.. Guys, it was a breeze, and from start to finish it took less than 5 minutes. The end result.....center information and a sense of space unlike a traditional front stage only setup!! thumbs up Andy


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Old 09-19-2009   #890
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Good shit. Thanks for the report!

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Old 09-19-2009   #891
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

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let me stop before this gets out of hand. Andy did NOT give me a unit, but let me explain my visit with him: Drove down to JBL and had lunch at a local mexican restaurant with Andy. we drove back to the plant, and I got to demo Andy's car for about 20 minutes. The car looks completely stock, and except for the tweeters in the sail panels, all speakers are in factory locations. The imaging was dead center with beyond the car ambience. the tonality was spot on and on one blues track, the guitar was literally 3 feet beyond the windshield and 2 fee past the left pillar. So most of us know that the car is great because in every competiton he puts the spank of most in his class. How easy is it to set up? glad you asked. as we were walking into the facility to check out the "silent chamber" 2 guys were heading out with an ms-8 to do some final hardware / software testing. They asked if I wanted to set it up in the vehicle. I of course said yes. This was a truck with 6 1/2" speakers front and rear and a 10" sub. I sat in the PASSENGER seat and proceeded to go thru the start-up menu from the beginning. crossover settings, what type of speakers, level setting from the deck.. Guys, it was a breeze, and from start to finish it took less than 5 minutes. The end result.....center information and a sense of space unlike a traditional front stage only setup!! thumbs up Andy
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Old 09-19-2009   #892
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
let me stop before this gets out of hand. Andy did NOT give me a unit, but let me explain my visit with him: Drove down to JBL and had lunch at a local mexican restaurant with Andy. we drove back to the plant, and I got to demo Andy's car for about 20 minutes. The car looks completely stock, and except for the tweeters in the sail panels, all speakers are in factory locations. The imaging was dead center with beyond the car ambience. the tonality was spot on and on one blues track, the guitar was literally 3 feet beyond the windshield and 2 fee past the left pillar. So most of us know that the car is great because in every competiton he puts the spank of most in his class. How easy is it to set up? glad you asked. as we were walking into the facility to check out the "silent chamber" 2 guys were heading out with an ms-8 to do some final hardware / software testing. They asked if I wanted to set it up in the vehicle. I of course said yes. This was a truck with 6 1/2" speakers front and rear and a 10" sub. I sat in the PASSENGER seat and proceeded to go thru the start-up menu from the beginning. crossover settings, what type of speakers, level setting from the deck.. Guys, it was a breeze, and from start to finish it took less than 5 minutes. The end result.....center information and a sense of space unlike a traditional front stage only setup!! thumbs up Andy
I find the phrase "final hardware / software testing" encouraging. This sounds like we're getting closer!
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Old 09-19-2009   #893
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

guys, I totally got the impression that they are all over this getting released. I mean we were walking in and these 2 guys saw Andy and said " Hey andy, we're going to test the software changes, you want to check it out?" Me and Andy said "sure". when I was in the car, the one engineer said this was the final thing they wanted to complete. Now I can't speak for Jbl, but I am reporting what was said. they made sure I understood that after the auto setup, you can adjust all amplitude, and you can eq it to your taste which was shown to me on the display unit that comes with the ms-8


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Old 09-19-2009   #894
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

stoked...
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Old 09-20-2009   #895
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Just to clarify, Big Red, the car you helped set up had no center channel? If so, how did it fare compared to the car you listened to with a center channel?

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Old 09-20-2009   #896
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

the center channel car was better.....imaging was tighter, overall ambience was larger.


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Old 09-20-2009   #897
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

BigRed...

How did the tuning go down? Do you really just draw a curve and let it work? What curve was being used?

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Old 09-20-2009   #898
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

The curve drawing comes after the Auto EQ. You can make changes to the sound AFTER the machine does its work. Setup goes like this:

1. Input Setup: Calibrate the input signal by inserting the setup disc and adjusting the volume until you get the level and balance "OK" indication. Then you press OK and it runs the auto Un-EQ. That whole procedure takes less than a minute.
2. Output Setup: You tell the machine via a menu what system you have.

a. Whether you have a sub and whether it uses 1 or 2 of MS-8's outputs and then you choose a subsonic filter frequency and slope and then a low pass filter frequency and slope.
b. Whether your front system is a 1-way, 2-way or 3-way. The high pass filter frequency is chosen when you choose the sub low pass filter. Then yo choose crossover filter frequencies and slopes for the midbass to midrange and midrange to tweeter (if you have a 3-way). If you only have a 2-way, then you choose the crossover frequency and slope between the mid and tweeter.
c. Whether you have a center channel and whether it's a 1-way or 2-way. Then you chosse the center high-pass filter frequency and slope and the crossover filter frequency and slope between the center mid and tweeter (if yo have a 2-way center).
d. Whether you have surround speakers and whether they are 1-way or 2-way. THen you choose the HPF and slope and the crossover between mid and tweeter (if you have a 2-way).
e. Whether you have side surround speakers. Then you choose the HPF.

MS-8 counts the number of channels you use and eliminates choices you can't make because you've rin out of channels. You MUST have at least a front stereo system. Then you can add speakers to make up whatever system you have.

f. Then you tell MS-8 which output channel is connected to the various speakers you identified in the previous steps. This whole procedure is pretty quick too, especially if you have any clue about what you're doing. You CANNOT input overlap or underlap between the sub and the midbass/midrange, midbass and midrange, and midrange and tweeters. Before you freak out and decide that the whole unit sucks because you can't input ridiculous crossovers, know that all of the crossover slopes and frequencies are adjusted when the Auto EQ runs. It works. Plus, the usual need for underlap of sub and midbass crossovers is handled another way--which works much better, anyway.

Once you've set up the outputs, an output diagnostic runs and you can output pink noise to each of the outputs (FR, FL, C, RS, LS, RR, LR and S) to be sure you've set things up correctly.

3. Acoustic calibration: You put the microphone on and press "Go". The unit makes 4 sets of sweeps in each seat (you must do one seat, but you can do all 4 if you wish) and prompts you to turn your head between the second and third and between the third and fourth to get a spatial average. The first set of sweeps sets the channel delays and the second through fourth are for frequency response.

4. Press "done" and enjoy.

Once those steps are complete, you can turn logic 7 on and off, adjust the center, balance, fader and sub levels, adjust bass midrange and treble and draw a new curve with the 31-band EQ. Since the channels have all been matched by the auto EQ, you only need to draw a new curve and it's applied to all the corrected channels.

THe subwoofer level control is a shelf that's applied to all the channels rather than an output level control for the sub amp. That's why no overlap or underlap is necessary in the crossover. This works great too.

Once setup is done, you can use MS-8's volume control or the control on the head-unit.
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Old 09-20-2009   #899
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Wow thanks for the insight Andy Looks like its getting closer and im sure many would like to know, any realistic time frame on when we will actually start seeing these????
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Old 09-20-2009   #900
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Default Re: JBL's MS-8 processor!

Andy,

Sounds Great! Thank you for the information; now all we need is a unit that can be purchased.
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